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Comment by Sebas

Many people are turned off by the damage shown for this skill because they do not realize this skill's strength. No, this is not just a "weak eviscerate with more requirements"...this skill does NATURE damage, which means it is unaffected by armor, which reduces the armor of pretty much all of a rogue's other attacks. Nature resistance may be a problem, though...

Comment by Xaoc

EDIT: Read the formula incorrectly.

Does anyone know a little bit more info about this? With an arbitrary AP (say 1000) and 5 applications, the formula spits out 870 dmg. 870 points of (usually) unmitigated dmg seems a little meh, even against a highly armored target. Being that the dmg is Nature, but the ability is Physical, does it crit often like Pysical spells? Or does it have low crit like Magic spells.

Comment by Tigraine

Did it also appear to you that the animation isn't showing up sometimes?
I still have to figure out why, but sometimes the animation is missing (too big mobs maybe?)

Comment by Dain

I've been meaning to try this out for a while now, but I must admit its rather unweildly appearance has put me off (Screw having to get 5 poison procs stacked AND 5 CP's on a mob before you can do a finisher)

It might be useful against bears/warriors in PvP but that would mean dropping Crippling poison in exchange, or going with one of each and just praying to get enuff procs of each off of one weapon. Would also screw gouges in a lot of situations.

Cant see it being of much use in a raid situation either (would it consume other peoples deadly poisons?)

Comment by 12996

So far this skill sucks in my opinion. The damage over time from my deadly poisons + an Eviscerate is more then an envenom. I can see it being usefull for a paladin using BOP or something to that effect, but otherwise, gg blizzard on F'ing over rogues with BC skills. Cloak of Shadows is our only skill worth mentioning, since the change of Anesthetic poison. =(

Comment by darkarsenic

The thing about envenom is getting the right amount of charges for the right amount of combo points. You might not be able to get those 5 charges within 12 seconds. it's much too situational, and using shiv with deadly poison is a waste, instant poison will do comparable damage, if not more, with greater control of the fight. a true PvPer will use wounding MH and crippling OH at 70 anyways. Wounding gives you anti-healer capabilities and damage, and crippling is for everything else. rupture or expose armor would be a better use of combo points IMO.

Comment by Paps

Envenom spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0eboExoVdVoZEr0c0h

This is what I would use if I were trying to max out poison damage, but I haven't tried it yet. Any criticisms on this? Please note that this is pretty much a pure PvE spec.

Comment by Banatu

I've been told something, rather consistently, by raiding rogues that Envenom beats the hell out of Eviscerate, even in pvp. With Vile Poisons, 1200 AP:

It's doing 1080 nature damage. 2k crits. People are getting 2k Cold Blood envenom crits in instances no sweat, with the rank one. With rank two, and 1400 AP, you'll be critting for 2.6k damage. Unmigitated.

Same situation, coldbooded eviscerate, dame mobs.. the crit's for around 1k. There miiight be an advantage to this, even if situational. Raiding you have 2x deadly up anyways, so what better way to use up deadly poison charges on a dying mob than 2.6k damage? =)

Comment by Nifty01

Something I have noticed that I would like to warn to other rogues. If you have 5cp, it will only do damage based on the number of poison doses on the target but will still consume all combo points. However, it will only consume doses equivalent to the number of combo points, that is to say if you had 2cp, but 5 doses, you would do 2 doses worth of Envenom damage, and retain 3 doses on the target.

Comment by 34089

I accidentally posted here instead of as a reply, and now I have to say something so WoWHead will give me my computer back.

Comment by 73623

Im a sword combat rogue, and im using Envenom as finishing move, i got 5/5 vile poisons, and with the sword spec, every extra attack is another poison apply, so i dont have problems with that.My usual envenom crits are 3500-3600, and my highest were 4500-4600 which is insane... I havent tested this with an enh shammy in the raid ( Stormstrike ) but i hope to do it soon and find out whether it benefits from it.. 20% more dmg will be ,,,, :| ... The only problem is that some bosses are immune to poisons, but 2-3 bosses among 50 is nothing ;) This is a great skill and the other combat rogues in our raids always ask me "how do u dps like that" :P

Comment by Fugazi

Raid buffed with 2500 AP and 30% crit (mob with 0 armor!):
Rupture = 1600 / 25 = 64 DPE (damage per energy)
Rupture + Mangle = 2080 / 25 = 83.2 DPE
Eviscerate = 1846 / 35 = 52.74 DPE
Eviscerate (talented) = 2250 / 35 = 64.28 DPE
Eviscerate (talented) + 2 set T5 bonus = 2567 / 35 = 73.34 DPE
Eviscerate + 2 set T5 bonus = 2106 / 35 = 60.17 DPE
Envenom = 1657 / 35 = 47.34 DPE
Envenom (talented) = 1989 / 35 = 56.83 DPE

Seems not that bad as Eviscerate damage will be lowered by armor (20%+ usually) but because it eats your poisons (lost dps) it is quite useless skill unless for finishing bosses on 1%.

Comment by 94813

I thought I would contribute that a lot of people are missing an important aspect of why Envenom is useful, and that is the one thing most of us who strictly use Deadly Poison fear most; wasted charges. What I mean is, say you miraculously stacked 5 charges on your target well before it's going to die. Well damn, now all your poison procs are going to waste (similar to getting 5 combo points... you're eager to use them immediately so you can start stacking a new bunch of them, correct?). But with Envenom, you can lop a few charges off and deal some hefty instant damage (putting those charges to good use!), then stack your charges back up again, which essentially prevents wasted Deadly Poison procs. For people who liberally apply Dead Poison as much as I do, it gives a nice little burst of damage periodically, one that Eviscerate just cannot do (even against casters).

Comment by Mekc

imho the best sword PvE build is an Envenom build 20/41.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebovZMIVb0VzxMGkt

With my tier5 gear, in raid it crits for 4800-5100 (2000-2500 non-crits)

So Envenom>Rupture>Eviscerate

Comment by 10128

It has been mentioned that 2.4 might take away the poison consumption from Envenom, making it a very good technique to use.

Comment by 113878

I cant really decide what is better...I have gone crazy by calculating dps etc testing specs and all that stuff...I also hear and see many different opinions about what is better in raids...Can any1 say what is the best spec and what is better in dps to use in raids with some proof plx? Basicly i play the common 19/42/0 swords with 2 @ resist stun & fear effects which is quite good in some fights (aka archimonde where the main goal is to avoid the fire when u getting feared)Anyways i play only with eviscerate as a finishing move (since i have the bonus from T5) shiv to refresh or add deadly poison stacks and ss ofc...I have to try ss shiv and envenom or maybe rupture when malice is up...I am confused...bah any suggestions? :P

Comment by 141113

Youre in T5 and you think Envenom is better than Rupture?

How much did that account cost?

And good job, your amazing talent build that you linked is without doubt the most common raiding spec in the game. Its the best spec, ill give you that much.

We all know envenom hits hard - DUH. The fact thats being pointed out is that you are losing approximately 45 DPS until you can fully build up your DP stack again, making it inferior to Rupture and even Eviscerate.

Bout the only thing Envenom is good at killing is trash.

Comment by NightmareMJ

Affected by Stormstrike and a few other "nature damage" increasing effects as well as wrath of air totem apparently.
With storm strike and mutilate spec this crits for well over 4K damage.
As shadow step envenom spec this will crit for over 5K.

Comment by faia

Shiv like crazy with deadly+ envenom= nice grinder! (even for dagger!)

did do that vs clefthoofs bulls....fun and very good=)

Comment by 145993

Yes he has a point, but its not exactly true. As an assasin rogue i have seen amazingly high envenom crits, sure it takes your posions away, but if you are mutilate spec you should be able to put back on those posions in less than 5 sec, not to mention a envenom crit can hit from over 4k, yes i hit for 3k unbuffed, then 4k with buffs and sometimes even higher, i think that covers for the 5 sec without posions. I would like to see a combat rogue hit over 4k in kara/crafted gear. Then the topic of mutilate, its two attacks, meaning 2 chances to apply posions, not to mention you have daggers, meaning swift fast attacks for max posion applying, and also my basic mutilates hit up to 2.5k. Now lets see in one set of combo points thats around 8-9k. And not to forget seal of fate, 3 combo point mutilate for 2.5k.

But its all about what you like, but i always run into people saying Assassination is a waste of a spec, then i ask them, what is you highest crit :].

Comment by Chace

Using Envenom as a filler between SnD and Rupture is quite viable for raiding Mutilate rogues. Seeing as how the combo point generation is very high with Mutilate.

Comment by 164782

As I've understood it for PvE,
Prio nr. 1. Always keep S&D up
Prio nr. 2. Keep Rapture up
And for the combo points you got left you use them on envenom.

Comment by thizzard

Heres an idea of how powerful this is even at level 62.
5 Combo points, 5 doses, cold blood = 2400+
The deadly poison doses are the only frustrating part. I've gotten all 5 in 5 attacks, and havn't gotten any on the opponent I was fighting.
Don't know if it helps, but I was wielding daggers at the time.

Comment by 162498

Very underused skill in pvp.

Vile poisons is a must in any pvp build, so might as well take advantage of the +20% envenom damage. Now don't go putting deadly poison on your offhand, no that would be dumb. Instead, keep it on a spare offhand that you can swap in via a macro.

Perfect for those matches where warriors/pallys don't go down first. With a decent amount of attack power, this can easily crit plate for 3,000+.

Comment by 121506

Envenom is a VERY powerful skill *when properly used*, it can deal insane amounts of armour-ignoring damage if timed perfectly. Otherwise its damage ranges from very low to very high. It is definitely worth using while soloing and as a Cold Blood finisher in raids if you can fit it into your cycle.

Comment by 122216

No one has yet to mention it can also be used greatly for crowd controlling when soloing or PvP. If you have Deadly Poison but you need to blind 'em (which is broken due to any damage) you can use envenom to get your poison off and then CC 'em.

Comment by lovemuffins

Anyone know if envenom is gonna be worth using in wrath raiding or will it be the same SnD and rupture?

Comment by Battosaix

So if I understand right, a rogue specced with Cut to the Chase will be able to 1 pt SnD, envenom, rupture, envenom, rupture, and so on?

Comment by 231124

Rank 3 and 4 seem to have incorrect values (the constant in the formula is the same as it is in Rank 2)

Comment by 239466

Gj, blizz.
has the buff always been here, btw?

Comment by 242515

i was looking at envenom ranks n from rank 2 through rank 4 the description was the exact same, showing:

1 dose: dmg
2 doses: dmg
3 doses: dmg
4 doses: dmg
5 doses: dmg

this cant be right, right? i mean if rank 2 n rank 4 is the exact same dmg then what the point learning ranks 3 n 4...

anyone else noticed that n knows whats going on here?

Comment by Gaviin

The tooltip currently shows that Rank 3 does the same damage as Rank 2, which is wrong. Blizzard is aware of the error. The current theory is that the real numbers are as follows.

1 dose: damage
2 doses: damage
3 doses: damage
4 doses: damage
5 doses: damage

Comment by Gaviin

The tooltip currently shows that Rank 4 does the same damage as Rank 2, which is wrong. Blizzard is aware of the error. The current theory is that the real numbers are as follows.

1 dose: damage
2 doses: damage
3 doses: damage
4 doses: damage
5 doses: damage

Comment by Roomy

1 dose: damage
2 doses: damage
3 doses: damage
4 doses: damage
5 doses: damage

With this system for Envenom, a 5 point 5 dose envenom only does 1780 unbuffed and only 2130 with the very high 3000ap buffed. Eviscerate does 2260-2912 base rank damage from the equal rank with 5 points, and doesn't require you to use Deadly Poison and lower your dps by not using the very much higher dps Wound Poison. Envenom gives you the temporary proc increase when you use it, but it's still not even close to the damage per proc of Wound poison, AND the envenom itself does less damage. The fact that Envenom takes off deadly poison marks is just like Sacrifice at the end of a tree that does nothing but buff your warlock pets, and it should be changed if they're not going to drastically increase the damage of Envenom. So if you spend all 8 points into increase proc and damage, it's still not even EQUAL to the damage that eviscerate is putting out with wound poison procs included as substituted for the Deadly poison dps. So my question is, why use Envenom?

When I was combat and Hemo spec at level 70 with the 70 ranks, I tried comparing dps using a rotation with Eviscerate and the same rotation with Envenom. While during both I had the same Deadly poisons on, and I found exactly the same dps while doing 5 point eviscerates as I did with 5 point 5 poison Envenoms. Before that test, I actually used Envenom every chance I had while in groups when using Deadly poison, so I really wanted to pull for Envenom. However, the tests showed try and try again that without the Vile Poisons and Improved Poisons talents at level 70 with the level 70 ranks, both abilities did about the same damage, so there would be no reason to use envenom even if you were using deadly poisons while using Eviscerate instead. The new ranks for 80 just widened the gap between the two with Eviscerate doing more. I really hope that with the fix that is coming for Envenom, they can do something to actually make the ability worth using over eviscerate. With the trouble you have to go through just to use it in your rotation and the chance that you'll be sitting there without 5 poisons on your target and screw up your rotation, envenom should do something so that it's worth using instead of Eviscerate.

Comment by Dexterious

My record is 10500 with envenom. Got that crit in 10 man naxx to elite humanoid target. Here are my stats... http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sunstrider&n=Dexterious

Comment by 277231

one question...do u need to have deadly poison on one of ur weapons to use ENVENOM or not?
thx in front

Comment by 299550

is there a reason why i cant use envenom on any mobs or bosses in nax? kinda screwing up my whole rotation

Comment by 250654

Does this get the +10% crit buff from improved scorch if its a spell? Or the moonkin aura buff/totem of wrath? Just thinking if it does it might be a seriously nice move if it did but I would assume not since it does get the benefit from your crit chance. Still frostfire bolt used to get +6% hit from elemental mastery so I wouldn't put it past blizzard

Comment by Rorixis

Patch Notes atm:

"Master Poisoner: Now also increases the bonus to apply Deadly Poison when Envenom is used by an additional 15/30/45%."

Should make it easy for mutilation rogues to stack DP up after Envenom.

Comment by 269661

The buff is actually counted as a poison mechanic dispel, which is illogical because enemies can't dispel poisons from you...
I wonder if a friendly target dispell would take it away however.

Comment by 59603

In my experience, if you have more combo points than the deadly doses on ur target, it won't let you do it. For example, if you have 5 combo points, but only 3 or 4 stacks deadly on ur target, it won't let you use envenom, that's VERY inconvenient. Anyone can confirm?

Comment by 340836

Big enough freaking gap in new moves for Rogues? Yeah. Thanks Blizz. Thanks. A lot. What was the newest ranked move we learned before this? Vanish? And that was at... what? Level 22? ... Wow... Just... wow. 40 freaking levels? For real? Sure, Disarm Traps, Blind and Safe Fall, but no one really uses those on a DAILY basis, unless they're either:
A. Fooling around (either on hostile/neutral NPC's or in duels)
or
B. Not very good Rogues at all

EDIT: Still... WITH those three mentioned "spells" (I don't believe Rogues cast, just my opinion though) the gap is still 22 levels. That's still quite a bit. I don't know about other classes but I'm not too happy with repeatedly going to my trainer just to learn ranks and no cool new tricks instead.

Comment by DeathBlood

When talented correctly, it's possible for Rogues to have a 100% chance to apply Deadly Poison. This allows for more Envenom use, especially useful for PvE.

"Each strike has a 30% chance of poisoning the enemy" -Deadly Poison
"Increases the chance to apply Deadly Poison to your target by 10%" -Improved Poisons
"Following the Envenom attack you have an additional 15% chance to apply Deadly Poison " -Envenom
"increases the bonus chance to apply Deadly Poison when Envenom is used by an additional 45%". -Master Poisoner

Keep in mind, Precision increases chance to hit with poisons (not be resisted), not increasing the chance to apply poisons.

Regardless, with a 100% chance to apply Deadly Poison, this allows you to get more doses up on your target quicker, even faster with Slice and Dice. More 5-dose Envenoms means more dps. Sounds like common sense, but I've seen PvE Rogues take Turn the Tables over Master Poisoner; and that is a serious mistake, not just for missing out on the 3% crit chance utility being provided to the raid, but for the sacrifice in their own personal Envenom dps.

Comment by KyorraWindblade

Patch notes, 3.2.2 PTR:

"Master Poisoner: Now also provides a 33/66/100% chance of preventing Envenom from consuming Deadly Poison."

Discuss.

Comment by 265915

As a Muti rogue myself. I only use FoK during trash or to pad meters ( :) )

Why the heck do you all care so much about the FoK nerf? It is still one of the most powerful AoE spells in the game barred maybe by the shadow priests mind sear. It NEEDED a nerf.

Sure it stinks for people who do a cheesy 3's or 5's combo with the Throwing Weapon Spec nerf, but come on for PvE its not a big deal at all. You can still do 8k+ DPS on trash (If that's what kind of DPS you care about...)

Blizzard said they want to focus more on daggers for rogues, because it is THE rogue weapon. They want to make rogues single target DPS better for Muti. Why are you all qq'ing about FoK? Be greatful that they are still thinking about us and giving us some nice Envenom buffs.

Comment by qirvos

Personally, the first thing I am going to do is test FoK damage with 2 good swords to see if I can make up the 35% damage delta between swords and daggers

Let's do quick and dirty math here, assumptions:

no multiplyiers of any kind taken into the account , no crit, AP, glyph, talent builds and so on - as I said quick and dirty
formula - avg dmg from MH + avg dmg from OH
same dps weapons to compare

Daggers taken for that calculation:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45605 - dmg = 338,1
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45930 - dmg = 263,025
result:
601,125

Swords:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45266 - dmg = 313,25
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45142 - dmg = 187,6
result:
500,85

If you are really FoK fanatic make yourself macro which would put 2 as slow weaps as possible into both weapon slots, the do the FoK - that would improve you AoE dps for sure. Make sure you also are targetted at any mob and you do white dmg at the same time.

However quistion is - is dps on clearing trash important at all? mobs die pretty quickly anyway. In my raiding exp I don't have much opportunity to do a lot of combo finishers at all on trash before they die anyway.

Comment by qirvos

Blizzard said they want to focus more on daggers for rogues, because it is THE rogue weapon. They want to make rogues single target DPS better for Muti. Why are you all qq'ing about FoK? Be greatful that they are still thinking about us and giving us some nice Envenom buffs.

rank up! Totally agree - if you want do more dmg on trash, go combat, glyph up flurry, adrenaline rush and FoK and fire up those 3 abilites on every trash group. You may consider yourself as a 5th horseman of apocalypse from now on :) at least as long as you are on trash ;)

Comment by feng

pls stop being off topic. if you want to discuss about FoK go here: http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51723#comments

Comment by Reddy

New 3.2.2 PTR Build 10433:

Envenom now benefits from Attack Power a little more.

1 dose: damage
2 doses: damage
3 doses: damage
4 doses: damage
5 doses: damage

Source

Comment by 368924

Does envenom ignore armor? Is it consider a melee attack? I was thinking maybe versus plate, 5 cp envenom better than 5 cp evicerate?

Comment by 467012

Hiyos!

so been an 80 rogue for a while been down all the trees and decently geared, pulling about 3.5 dps with my own little buffs but i know i can pull more

so what gems should i be putting in AP gems since this, i hope it does, scale with our attack power or agi gems, was rolling arm pen gems but since a dumb ass nub like i am this ignores armor

any info or links would be much help

thankies ^_^

err should mention that i am an assassination spec rogue lol yea i know nub

Comment by Sgtown

My question is, since Envenom with the talent doesn't consume Deadly Poisons, can you 5 point envenom with less than 5 deadly on the target and still do full damage?

Comment by 334003

Just wondering here, but as the damage from Envenom is posion and therefore nature damage, is it counted as magical damage?
And, therefore, benefit from Curse or Elements-type effects?

Comment by kilkar0

This is now used in PvP spec. The spec is 44/2/25 ( Can vary from player to player, some personal preference choices ).

It is really nice now that it's buffed with Master Poisoner but there are some problems : Something getting Deadly Poison up takes some time, and in my opinion it is also harder to play envenom spec, somewhat. I did use shiv myself to get 1 deadly up, because after you do get 1 up you're most likely never going to lose it.

It hits like a truck on both cloth and plate ( Eviscerate is pretty weak on plate ) but as mentioned earlier the deadly poison issue can make it much harder to get nice envenoms on let's say a mage who keeps blinking and slowing you.

I recommend people to try this spec out and see if it fits you or not.

Comment by ganjabanshee

I <3 Envenom.....oh soooo very much :)

Comment by moddycss

Now for patch 3.3 this ability can overdo Rupture if talented into it.

It does nature damage which ignores armor and crits as much as your other melee abilities

The bad this about this is you need 5 douses of deadly poison. well thats np at all.

I take deadly MH and instant OH (cus when 5 stacks of deadly my instant procs instead) and then i use glyph of envenom or assasination talents. both will do cus they do so it doesn't consume any douses of poisons on the target. making you allways have 5 and you just need to pop you 5 CP asap.

after i then have done my 6-7k crit with 2500 AP (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eonar&n=Danelina), it will increase the procc rate of both my poisons (increases proc of deadly by 15% which will make my instant proc more cus of 5 douses, and increases instant poison proc which i allready have on my OH) so besides the 6-7k damage that i do with envenom (i do 4k with eviscerate) it proccs my poisons for even more damage. making me do at least 10k damage from the 5 CP with 2500AP only. (wonder what i would do with ICC gear)

Therefore. envenom now beats eviscerate all the time, and talented into envenom instead of rupture you can do even more damage than rupture 2.

Comment by TehDang

Oddly enough, you get the envenom buff even when the actual attack fails to land (dodge/miss confirmed)

Comment by 502522

So if I understand correctly, you want to keep your combo points on the target in order to get the buff from envenom to last longer than 1 second? (1 second per combo point)

Comment by 626369

As a combat rogue as opposed to assassination, I (for PvP purposes) like to put Deadly Poison on my off-hand, and Instant Poison poison on my main-hand. Reason? After I shiv to get a few stacks of Deadly Poison, I use Envenom and then hit Killing Spree. You'd be surprised how +15% and +75% additional chance to apply Deadly Poison and Instant poison can increase the damage on a killing spree. This is something I typically only reserve for high armored players though, because of nature damage being unaffected by armor.

Comment by 659770

I just started playing Rogue again and I was wondering, with envenom being nature damage and all. Will my mastery affect my Envenom?

Thanks in Advance :)

Comment by woa12

assuming your assassination spec I would use this after my opening stealth move to get deadly poison up quicker it doesnt matter how much damage it does because your spec focuses on the damage of your poison

Comment by ikill4cookies

Because there doesn't seem to be any new information on this spell I thought I'd add a little. Some of this may be obvious to some people, but to a new rogue it may not be. I remember seeing this spell a couple years ago and wondering what the point of it is.

Envenom is the main finisher for Assassination Rogues, it is rarely used in other specs. It is similar to Dispatch however it has added requirements, At least one stack of Deadly Poison must be active on the target, and will be consumed based on how many combo points you use.

And an added bonus, "Following the Envenom attack your Deadly Poison application chance is increased by 15%, and your Instant Poison application frequency by 75%, for 1 sec plus an additional 1 sec per combo point"

The added requirement is the main reason other specs do not use this spell, but as an Assassination rogue, you have access to the talent . However at least 1 stack of Deadly Poison still must be active to use the ability.

New rogues tend to underestimate this ability, because of the numbers they see on the tool tip, however damage from envenom comes not from the initial damage, but the increased poison application rate buff that is applied on you after you use it. From an Assassination Rogues perspective, Poisons are the majority of our damage, increasing up time on this buff is crucial to obtaining higher DPS.

When most common rotations would be like this:
Mutilate-> Mutilate-> Envenom

Instead I would suggest you to instead think of it more like this:
Envenom-> Mutilate-> Mutilate
Envenom-> Mutilate-> Mutilate

You want to make sure your Mutilates following Envenom are cast with the buff present, this means you usually want to pool (save up) energy to 80-90 (depends how much haste you have) before using Envenom to ensure you can Mutilate directly afterwards, and you do not want to go too fast as to clip your Envenom buff. Assassination rogue is not about clicking as fast as you can, making every GCD, it is more about control and timing.

Mutilate-> Mutilate
Wait for energy to rise
Envenom-> Mutilate-> Mutilate
Wait until last Envenom buff almost wears out
Envenom-> Mutilate-> Mutilate

Of course you should keep Rupture and Slice and Dice up also, but this comment is about Envenom manipulation.
It is never worth it, to wait for an Envenom buff to wear out and cap your energy, It is much better to just clip your Envenom in that situation.
I say 80-90 energy because of not only haste, but the talent Relentless Strikes that most Assassination rogues grab.

It is usually not worth it to use Envenom unless you have 4+ CP, however everything is situational, if the mob it about to die and you don't have enough energy for a Mutilate, of course it is beneficial to squeeze in another envenom.
People mentioned Cut to the Chase which is another time where you may use a lower CP envenom, it is better to use a 1 CP envenom to refresh Slice and Dice (it will refresh it to 5 point maximum) than it is to let it drop off. Even though as an Assassination Rogue it is a dps loss to use Eviscerate over Envenom, you shouldn't just remove Eviscerate from your bar, it comes in handy in situations like the one above where you have to refresh Slice and Dice, because Envenom requires at least 1 stack of deadly poison, if you do not have this, and need to refresh Slice and Dice, just Eviscerate, it works with Cut to the Chase also and is less of a dps loss than letting slice and dice drop

In an AoE pull I sometimes enjoy to time Fan of Knives directly after an Envenom to make use of the buff, in most cases it is better to just spam Fan of Knives, but if you needed to Envenom to keep Cut to the Chase up then might as well use it to buff Fan of Knives as well

A bit on Mechanics:
Envenom and Poison Damage is considered spells and nature damage which means as an Assassination Rogue you want enough Hit Rating to not just make the Melee Hit cap, but the Spell Hit Cap,
These spells also use the Spell Crit multiplier of 150% instead of the 200% Melee Critical which greatly devalues Crit making it one of the worst secondaries for a Assassination Rogue.
If Envenom fails to hit the target, for example if it was dodged, your combo points will not be taken, you will not deal any damage with it (obvious i know) but, you will gain the Envenom Buff for increased poison applications. The fact that you gain the buff regardless makes Expertise not quite as important as other melee classes. This mechanic may make you drop a Slice and Dice or cap your energy though.

Hope this information was somewhat useful

Comment by rodolfo8787

Just poisons are resisted (absorv). Envenom don't.. it's a land melee spell with bypass.
Log in your char ask for druid marks buff and try be hit by a rogue with envenom.
Look at your combat log, has no ( xxxx resisted ) and on deadlys have (xxx resisted)

...

Resistance is already discounted by deadly poison stacks once you need them to "Envenom".
Discounted twice ? Seriously !

Easy to test this.

Thanks if some one can put some SS here.

Comment by 939034

Aye, my friend is a 85 assassin rogue. After spending 30 minutes testing out Eviscerate and Envenom when each 1 got 5 combo points and 5 stacks of deadly poison on the boss training dummy, each time Envenom beat Eviscerate. As Sebas said, Envenom ignores armor due to the fact it does nature damage, but Envenom can be a little more difficult to use while leveling at lower levels because the target normally dies before u get 5 stacks of deadly poison and 5 combo points. Unless you put deadly poison on both weapons ( at lower levels when shiv isn't a move you haven't learned yet), it will be harder to get the full effect from Envenom, but that should not discourage you from using it. Envenom is an excellent move and should entirely replace Eviscerate if your not a combat rogue.

Comment by mikrosocko

Assuming you have 7000 attack power, the 5 point Eviscerate will hit for an average of 6042-6394 damage. If you put 3 points into the Coup de Grace talent, which increases the damage done by your Eviscerate and Envenom by 20%, Eviscerate will hit for approximately 7250-7672 damage. The damage will be different because of your opponent's armor and your talents. Also, I think your AP will most likely be higher as a level 85, so...do the math.

Also, I did some calculations as well for a Sub rogue...It turned out pretty awesome!

Check this out:

Assuming you have 7000 AP (It will be higher at lvl 85, this is just an example)

You were supposed to hit for 6042-6394.

Assuming you will hit within 6 sec after breaking Stealth (Master of Subtlety), you will cause 10% increased damage: 6646-7033.

Assuming you have a Bleed effect on your target (2 points in Sanguinary Vein), you will do 10% increased damage: 7310-7736.

Assuming you have maxed out Coup de Grace (located in the first set of talents in Assassination tree), your Eviscerate will do 20% increased damage: 8772-9283.

Assuming your mastery, Executioner, does 25% increased damage, you will hit for: (now this is crazy): 10965-11603.

Of course, your damage will be reduced by the opponent's armor, but still, its pretty awesome!

Envenom whit 7000 ap in assa talent and 5 cp = 4985
+ Coup de Grace = 5982
+ Vile Poisons = 8135
+ Master Poisoner = 8786
+ Vendetta = 10543
+ Potent Poisons(+28%poison w/o mastery point) = 13495

13495 nature dmg in assasin talent. And armor not effect the envenom. (+Cold Blood 100% crit)

If someone ask me hard work for 5 dose deadly i say: I always use Shiv Whit Deadly in offhand. Ind 5 dose never problem. I tested max 3sec.

Ok, ok. Envenom or Eviscerate. i thin no better.
In assasin and poison liker use Envenom. higher dmg . Buf sub or combat no use Envenom. veri low dmg. They must use Eviscerate.

Another question is pvp.
Lot os people say Eviscerate better.
I think yes. in sub and combat only. faster clear dmg.
But Envenom in ass talent is sometime surprise for plate equiped (or druid bear) players.

Try it

Comment by thinkdunson

No more worrying about deadly stacks. Kind of a dual resource mechanic. Made it more interesting, IMO.

Comment by 319936

for Assassination Rogue, Envenom replaces Dispatch.

Comment by Bogdanov89

Just to point out, for all ye old rogues, that Envenom no longer has any requirements as far as Deadly Poison goes - it solely depends on your combo points (and energy).

And Deadly Poison no longer stacks, in other words you can only have 1 application of Deadly Poison per target (per rogue).

Comment by 1107124

Be sure to note that Mastery: Potent Assassin increases Envenom's damage! :D

Comment by Carionom

It is true that mastery increases the direct damage component of envenom.
(as the comment below me stated)
Though when you have the choice, pick agility over mastery when you can. For example Primal Gladiator's Badge of Conquest (322 agility in PvP mode) does increase envenom's damage more than Primal Gladiator's Badge of Adaptation (322 mastery in PvP mode) does.

Regarding secondary stats alone, mastery is still top over the rest.

Links WeakAuras Export

Envenom

Envenom

35 Energy / 1 to 5 Combo Points	Melee Range

Instant

Finishing move that drives your poisoned blades in deep, dealing instant Nature damage and increasing your poison application chance by 30%. Damage and duration increased per combo point.

1 point : [(23.1% of Attack power) * 1] damage, 2 sec
2 points: [(23.1% of Attack power) * 2] damage, 3 sec
3 points: [(23.1% of Attack power) * 3] damage, 4 sec
4 points: [(23.1% of Attack power) * 4] damage, 5 sec
5 points: [(23.1% of Attack power) * 5] damage, 6 sec

Deeper Stratagem
6 points: [(23.1% of Attack power) * 6] damage, 7 sec

Buff

Envenom

Poison application chance increased by 30%.

Dashing Scoundrel
Poison critical strikes generate 1 Energy

1 second remaining

Spell Details

Duration

1 second

School

Nature

Mechanic

n/a

Dispel type

n/a

GCD category

Normal

Cost

35 Energy / 1 to 5 Combo Points

Range

5 yards (Combat)

Cast time

Instant

Cooldown

n/a

GCD

1 second

Aura proc chance

100%

Effect #1

School Damage (Nature) (AP mod: 0.231)
PVP Multiplier: 0.96

Effect #2

Apply Aura: Modifies Proc Chance (18)
Value: 30
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Wound Poison		Instant Poison		Deadly Poison
	Amplifying Poison		Slaughter Poison

Effect #3

Apply Aura: Modifies Critical Strike Chance (7)
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

Wound Poison	Instant Poison	Deadly Poison
Amplifying Poison	Slaughter Poison	Slaughter Poison
Slaughter Poison

Effect #4

Apply Aura: Modifies Damage/Healing Done
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Mutilate		Mutilate		Mutilate
	Mutilate

Effect #5

Apply Aura: Modifies Critical Strike Chance (7)
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

	Mutilate		Mutilate		Mutilate
	Mutilate

Effect #6

Apply Aura: Periodic Dummy
Interval: 5 seconds
PVP Multiplier: 1

Effect #7

Apply Aura: Modifies Damage/Healing Done
PVP Multiplier: 1
Affected Spells:

Wound Poison	Instant Poison	Deadly Poison
Amplifying Poison	Slaughter Poison	Slaughter Poison
Slaughter Poison

Flags

Is Ability
Cannot be used while shapeshifted
Do Not Sheath
Initiates Combat (Enabled Auto-Attack)
Require All Targets
Discount Power On Miss
No Proc Equip Requirement
Not a Proc
Requires main hand weapon
Can Proc From Procs
No Helpful Threat
Aura Points On Client
Allow Class Ability Procs
Nameplate Personal Buffs/Debuffs
Periodic Refresh Extends Duration

Guides

Assassination Artifact Guide Assassination Rogue Guide Overview Assassination Rogue Rotation Guide Best Assassination Rogue Legendaries Assassination Rogue Talent Tree Build Legion Rogue Class Changes Warlords of Draenor Rogue Changes

Envenom

Buff

Spell Details

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