Paladin Wishlists for Dragonflight Talent Tree - Holy, Protection, and Retribution

Posted 2022/07/11 at 10:00 AM by Jaydaa

Paladin Wishlists for the Dragonflight Talent TreesHoly Paladin Talent Tree Wishlist

Voulk

Holy Paladin is in an interesting state as Shadowlands comes to a close. The overpowered patches came to an end a tier ago, and while the spec is still very playable there's definitely more than a few changes I'd like to see going forward.

The Holy Paladin Spec Tree
There are broadly two types of opinion on the direction of Holy Paladin. Those who don't mind hard casting sometimes, and those who think anything that isn't instant cast belongs in Classic. Historically the spec played closer to the former, but recently it's been almost all the latter. The spec tree is a great opportunity to fulfill both fantasies. Just as the revealed Disc tree is split between "Light" and "Darkness", and the Resto Druid tree is split between "Healing" and "dear god even more healing", Paladin can similarly be split into "Offensive & instant-cast based" and "Defensive & cast-heavy" themes. You're not picking one or the other necessarily and your build will venture into both sides of the tree but the option to further specialize into your play type should be there. The Offensive, crusader-esque side might have Crusader's Might, Sanctified Wrath, Light's Hammer, Judgment of Light, Glimmer of Light. The Defensive side might carry better Infusion of Light procs, Bestow Faith, Light's Grace, Sacred Shield, Illuminated Healing and more (you might not recognize some of these but they're further defined below). They'll meet in the middle of the tree frequently for general-purpose power like Rule of Law and Awakening and culminating in a Beacon of Faith / Beacon of Virtue choice node. You're still a melee-based healer.

Before we can look at what individual talents we might like to see, let's write down some quick goals that we want to tree to fulfill:

A reduced emphasis on buttons like Judgment and Crusader Strike that do little except fill time between cooldowns. Reposition these as offensive buttons, or give them a clearer role in the kit.
Better power balance between spenders. If they're sticking with Holy Power then Light of Dawn shouldn't be the correct choice 95% of the time.
More power throughout the kit instead of Beacons and spenders being overwhelmingly powerful.
Infusion of Light procs to evolve to a more interesting, or more customizable form.
Introduce more choice in the rotation in general.
A reduced emphasis on passive damage, moving toward a model where you are making a choice to deal more damage rather than it happening automatically as a result of your max-healing rotation.

We could tick off some of the above with the following:
Holy Light+ and an Infusion remake
Holy Light is an infrequent button press right now. A talent that adds the Resplendent Light effect to Holy Light on Infusion of Light procs (could also be baseline) might give it a stronger niche in raid. Holy Light should also generate a Holy Power always. This gives us a Holy Radiance equivalent back but balanced around Infusion generation which let's us tune it much higher than the Shadowlands conduit equivalent was.

We could have an Infusion of Light choice node with two different ways to specialize the effects to make them more useful. There are many ways they could make it interesting whether it's instant Flash of Lights vs free casts, or enhancing Holy Light's splash effect vs increasing it's Holy Power generation but making infusions a valuable spend should be a top priority for the spec in Dragonflight if they plan on keeping the mechanic around. A talent that gives a second charge of Infusion of Light on procs would also be extremely powerful if they were worthwhile casts.

Better spender balance
Eternal Flame or the Eternal Flame HoT effect added to Word of Glory. Eternal Flame was a single target spender that left a long duration HoT effect on the target. It would give a second tuning knob on Word of Glory and allows it to shine in more scenarios (tank healing, heavy debuffs, high overheal fights).

A "spin off node" could double it's HoT when applied to the casting Paladin or a Beacon target allowing us to further specialize in tank healing.

Interactive Mana
Paladin mana in Shadowlands is a little problematic. You don't have a cheap offensive filler spell and you don't have a regen mechanic. "Cast less" is an ok solution, but I think it skips over what could become an interesting part of the spec. There's a lot of history that could be revisited in a new form like Divine Plea and Illumination but I think a newly designed semi-active solution might fit best.

Ashen Hallow
Ashen Hallow was a controversial ability through Shadowlands owing to it's ridiculous power through two tiers. It ended the expansion in a pretty fair state and is a good fit for a Holy Paladin capstone node. If Divine Toll is missing from the class tree then that would also fit well here as a replacement. It's damage could be further tuned down if necessary to fulfill goal #6 (less free damage).

Illuminated Healing
Illuminated Healing was previously our mastery but I'd like to see it return as a passive that turns a small percentage of our healing into an Absorb. The spec almost unavoidably does a lot of overhealing right now and converting a small percentage of that to an absorb would alleviate that a little bit. This can be tuned quite low since absorbs can often be a blight on the healer metagame but I'd like to see it return in a weaker form.

There's also an opportunity for:

Merging Shock Barrier with the Radiant Incandescence Azerite trait and giving the effect on critical hits instead of always (better synergy with a potential Focused Light node, added crit scaling to the kit). The Holy Shock buffing effects can take up their own section of the tree since they link together well.
A Beacon of the Lightbringer type effect where we can enhance our Mastery efficiency through our choice of Beacon. Raid permanently miles away from you? Fix it yourself with a reduced cost Virtue + Lightbringer. Beacons are an interesting mechanic, but they could offer more choice.
Light's Grace returning in it's original form with Holy Light casts reducing the cast time of the next one by 0.5s. A 2.5s Holy Light cast is too slow for the modern game.
Returning Crusader's Might to a 1.5s reduction (the length of a GCD). This isn't a balance request really, the rotation just plays much more nicely when almost every cast is a factor of the GCD and a 1s reduction created some awkward pauses depending on haste percentage.
A Light of Dawn offshoot node that increases it's range to 40 yards. This has existed in basically every expansion in some form and should return again.

Rough Sample Tree

Offensive, instant or DPS-to-heal focused mechanics sit toward the left and hard casts, mana generation and raw healing talents toward the right. A partial separation of our strongest healing talents and our strongest DPS talents removes some of our passive damage in exchange for more healing, if we want it. Current paladin has a real problem with being impossible to balance fairly because when taking into account it's utility, tank healing, immunities and damage it is hard to also allocate it strong healing. The talent tree is an opportunity to fix that.

The Paladin Class Tree
If the Paladin spec tree is strong then I think the class tree can carry a little less importance. I'm imaging we'll see most of our blessings, at least some of our auras, and a lot of our core DPS spells take up a decent portion of our available points.

Hopefully we'll see some of the following:

Divine Toll. A strong medium-cooldown ability. Likely as one of our class tree end nodes.
A proper damage-focused spender. In single target scenarios right now you'll often cast a Light of Dawn into nothing for the Awakening proc chance because Shield of the Righteous isn't very strong. A stronger damage-focused spender would open up more choice when it comes to spending resource on DPS vs Healing and it could be a good fit for the class tree.
Some form of Avenging Wrath talent. It could be an Avenger's Might-esque Mastery buff while active, or something more extreme like an optional node cutting it's duration and cooldown in half in order to improve flexibility around it's use.
A strong mini-defensive node like Legion's Knight of the Silver Hand where Judgment gives you a small ~10% DR for a few seconds.
An interrupt. With Resto Druid picking up Skull Bash it seems reasonable that we'll be able to opt into Rebuke. I'm a little torn on giving interrupts to healing specs to begin with, but if the other specs are getting one (for the most part) then Paladin should too.
A lot of the generic CC nodes I've included in the Holy spec tree could also be moved here. Stuff like Cavalier, Blinding Light, Repentance, Unbreakable Spirit and so on. They're good effects to have access to.

Protection Paladin Talent Tree Wishlist
Believe it or not, Protection in Shadowlands has some well-designed talent options. It was quite common to have a one talent set up in a raid then swap to complete a distinct set up in a dungeon. Some quick examples of this are using First Avenger for Mythic+ while using Crusader's Judgment in raid, picking Blessing of Spellwarding if it removed a mechanic from an encounter, or swapping to Hand of the Protector to get those sweet off-heal Word of Glory casts going.

There are a lot of class talents that are shared between specs like Row 30 and Row 40 and ensuring those things are still shared is critical. But there isn't enough stuff to fill out a talent tree with what we have right now so there will be gaps and opportunities for old things to come back from the dead. In this write-up, I'll talk about where I want our current talents to go and touch on talent ideas that I would like to see back in the fold of the Protection Paladin kit for Dragonflight.

Breaking Current Talents into Core & Spec Trees

First, we need to break our existing talents into what will go in the class or core tree. Here is a rough color-coded version of the talent grid.

The Yellow boxes are something that should go in the Protection spec tree. These are only useful for Protection -- like Retribution or Holy do not need access to Redoubt or Final Stand as they would be skipped in favor of other options. The only talent from the Orange group that could be in the Class/Core tree is Blessing of Spellwarding as it could add more utility to Retribution Paladins. However, Blessing of Spellwarding is the only talent that sets Protection apart from other Paladins and sharing it between specs. could make Protection less desirable to a group. I would want them to explore options in the Retribution Tree for unique utility before they get access to Blessing of Spellwarding.

The Pink box ones are the ones that should go in the Core/Class tree. All three specs can utilize talents like Blinding Light or Divine Purpose. These are universal in current Shadowlands and should remain as options in 10.0 for any Paladin to pick-up.

The red boxed Moment of Glory can just be deleted. It was never picked in Shadowlands, and it will never be picked over other talent options. It's just bad. Be gone with you!

Old is New Again

Now that we've covered what I would like to see done with existing talents, let's talk about bringing back some old toys. This list below is based on stuff that I personally liked over the years, and I think Blizzard could bring back. The latter part is something that I consider important because sure, I can ask for Long Arm of the Law back, but I have serious doubts if they'd bring it back. It doesn't seem to fit with their gameplay vision of the Paladin class. I want to ask for “old stuff” they might consider giving us back.

Old Talents and Abilities

Let's start with some old talents and abilities from previous expansions!

Eternal Flame - This is an old talent from the Warlords days that replaced Word of Glory with a heal over time. This could be more preferable in situations where you face "rot damage" and the healing over time will provide more value than the spike healing of Word of Glory. I could see this as a one point in the Protection Tree.
Sacred Shield - This is another old talent from Warlords that provided you with an absorb shield. This would add some damage smoothing to proactively limit spikes and spike damage. I could see this as a one-point talent in the Prot. tree.
Blessing of Purity - This was a damage reduction talent from Warlords. It provided damage reduction to damage over time effects and could be useful in some situations in raid or even Mythic+. One situation that comes to mind is selecting this on a boss like Rygalon for his Corrupted Wound mechanic. I could see this as a one-point talent in the class tree.
Clemency - This was another talent from Warlords that gave you two charges of your Blessings so you would have two charges of Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Freedom, etc. This will add some flexibility in how you use your Blessings, making a Paladin more valuable to a group. I could see this as a one-point talent in the class tree.
Aegis of Light - This was a raid cooldown from Legion and BFA that fit thematically with the concept of a Protection Paladin. It wasn't picked very much but, for encounters where you did, it was incredibly good like Mythic Ashvane. It should be a one-point in the Prot. tree that you can pull out when the situation calls for it.
Last Defender - This was a passive talent that gave damage and damage reduction for each target you were tanking. It was a nice talent for Mythic+ and multi-target situations and reinforced how Paladin's scale when tanking multiple targets. I would add this as a one-point talent in the Protection tree.

Legion Artifact Traits

The Legion artifact was littered with traits, but I think only one is even worth considering for a return.

Tyr's Enforcer - This trait from Legion's Truthguard added some minor area of effect damage to your Avenger's Shield casts. This talent could help with some issues that Protection has with generating threat/aggro on targets that are spread out. I could see this as a one-point talent in the Prot. tree.

Azerite Traits

Azerite was an imperfect system, but it had two stand out traits that could be interesting if they were brought back.

Inspiring Vanguard - This was a passive azerite trait that added strength proc to Grand Crusader. It didn't change your gameplay that much, but it made Grand Crusader more interesting and common. This should be a one-point talent in the Protection tree.
Light's Decree - This was another azerite trait that gave some passive damage when you used Holy Power spenders. It eventually became the Retribution version of Sanctified Wrath but bringing it back as a one-point talent in the class tree could be an interesting choice.

Shadowlands Covenants & Conduits

Divine Toll - This is the Kyrian covenant ability that can currently be accessed in Shadowlands. It would be a single point talent in the Protection tree.
Resolute Defender - This is the Endurance conduit that helps cycle Ardent Defender faster and could be a talent in the Protection tree.
Royal Decree - This conduit could come back as a Protection Tree talent an option for more cooldown availability.
Light's Barding - This conduit could come back as a talent and help with mobility in the class tree.

Shadowlands Legendary Powers

Divine Resonance - This Shadowlands legendary would be a one point that helps supplement Divine Toll as a one-point talent option.
Uther's Devotion - This Shadowlands legendary would provide access to more utility. As a legendary, the opportunity cost was too high but as a one-point talent in the class tree, it might easier to take and use.
The Magistrate's Judgment - This Shadowlands legendary would provide some interaction with the Holy Power system. It was popular for Protection in difficult Shadowland raid content and it's something that should be back for Dragonflight as a one-point talent in the Protection tree.
Bulwark of Righteous Fury - This was the staple Shadowlands legendary for Mythic+ for the entire expansion. It adds some interplay between using Avenger's Shield and Shield of the Righteous for damage and should be a one-point talent in the Protection tree.

Eye of Tyr

I want to address an elephant in the room -- Eye of Tyr.

Eye of Tyr was the Protection Paladin artifact ability from Legion. A lot of people, including myself, loved this ability for many reasons including the sound, the feel, and effect. It was just a good button to press.

But after thinking about it, I do not want Eye of Tyr back in the Protection tree for Dragonflight. It had too many mechanical problems -- it was directional, had a short range, required it to hit a target, had no effect on environmental damage and the like. I don't find Eye of Tyr that compelling as an optional talent and if it were added back, I don't know if I would take it over other options that affect Ardent Defender.

Conclusion

Protection has had several iterations over the years and there are so many things that can return. It's anyone's guess what makes the cut! What are some of the things you want back for Protection? Let me know in the comments!

Retribution Paladin Talent Tree Wishlist

Bolas

Current Talents

Before diving in to all the abilities that could return, let's first talk about what would and wouldn't work in the current Retribution tree looking forward at Dragonflight.

Ret actually has a lot of fun, interesting, and well-designed talents. A lot of these I would expect to see in the Paladin class tree - such as Cavalier, Divine Purpose, , and Blinding Light - and some are more likely to be in the Retribution tree, like Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning. A couple of notes on specific talents:
Good

Execution Sentence - The Shadowlands version of this ability is arguably the most interesting iteration Execution Sentence has had in the last few expansions. Trying to squeeze as much damage as possible into its window is a fun experience both from a theorycrafting perspective as well as a gameplay one, and this has become one of the most beloved abilities from Shadowlands for a lot of Retribution players. I think it's very likely that this will be a talent in Dragonflight, and hope that it'll keep its current design over the bland BfA or underpowered Legion versions.
Blade of Wrath - While it's not a talent that dramatically changes gameplay, the new trees will include quite a lot of passive talents, and Blade of Wrath is a great one that reduces rotational downtime and adds more reactive gameplay to the rotation.
Fist of Justice / Repentance / Blinding Light - These are all talents that see widespread use in dungeons and to a lesser extent raids. I would hope that they all stick around in some regard, since Ret doesn't have much baseline CC. That said, I would expect them to appear in the class tree rather than the Ret tree, since they're currently available to all Paladin specs.
- Another talent I would expect to see in the class tree. replaced Inquisition in Shadowlands, and they are pretty similar in some regards - they're both holy power spenders that provide a buff that you use once every 45s. Inquisition is more like a buff that needs to be constantly maintained though, while was mostly used to buff specific cooldown windows. Of the two, I would much prefer to return, since the cooldown oriented nature is much more enjoyable to play around than a buff you just need to press once or twice a minute.
Final Reckoning - A new addition to the talent tree in Shadowlands and one that was very well received by the playerbase. Moving the focus of cooldowns from solely on Avenging Wrath to a shorter cooldown cycle was a great change in gameplay, and the ability itself is just fun to use. If it is kept as a talent, the passive part of it might be unnecessary - it's rarely ever relevant and can confuse some players both about how it works and about how it's best used.

Needs Work

Zeal - I could see this returning again as a passive option, but it could use some kind of overhaul to make it interact a bit more with the rest of Ret's kit. Currently, it's mostly just useful as a way to increase auto attack frequency for more tier set procs.
Righteous Verdict - It's fallen far from grace since Whisper of the Nathrezim. The ability itself isn't bad, just relatively undertuned compared to the other options in the row. The biggest issue I see with it in terms of gameplay is that it doesn't actually require you to alter your rotation at all to maintain the buff; 6 seconds is such a long window that you can basically ignore it and have almost all of your Templar's Verdicts buffed. If it does return, it would be more interesting if it were more similar to Legion, where you'd have short periods where you could maintain the buff in succession followed by periods you'd pool more Holy Power in between.
Fires of Justice - I wouldn't be too surprised to see this as a passive talent either, but it's a pretty lacklustre one. Crusader Strike is by far your worst Holy Power generator, and while reducing its cooldown does help decrease downtime somewhat, you'll frequently sit on Crusader Strike charges while you use higher priority abilities anyway. The proc rate of the Holy Power cost reduction is not particularly enticing either.
Empyrean Power - Another talent that is a shadow of its former self. As an Azerite trait in BfA, Empyrean Power was fantastic at providing some free cleave at little to no cost to your single target damage, something that's pretty rare for Ret to have. However as a talent, with the proc tied to Crusader Strike and at such a low proc rate, it's seen much less use. If this does return I'd like to see either the proc rate increased or the proc tied to something other than Crusader Strike.
Eye for an Eye - If this didn't only reduce physical damage, it'd be an auto pick talent. Unfortunately PvE content is dominated by magic raid damage rather than physical, so it sees very little use. I would be unhappy to see this in Dragonflight without changes to the types of damage it works against.
Holy Avenger - The cooldown desync between this and Avenging Wrath has prevented it from seeing any use in Shadowlands. Realistically, the power of the effect just isn't worth anything near a 3 minute cooldown. With a shorter cooldown, it may see some use.
Avenging Wrath - I love this talent, and while I hope to see it return in Dragonflight, it needs some work to make it competitive. I think the most likely scenario it appears in the talent tree is as a choice node between Avenging Wrath and Sanctified Wrath. However, currently it's worse than Sanctified Wrath in every situation, single target or AoE. A buff to either the maximum stack count or the amount of damage/haste it provides could make it more competitive on single target, while leaving Sanctified Wrath to be a stronger option for AoE. Avenging Wrath was used for the entirety of Legion and large portions of BfA and it's one of the most beloved talents on the tree, so I really hope this gets the treatment it deserves in Dragonflight to once again be a viable option.

Bad

Justicar's Vengeance - The only thing this talent does in PvE content is bait players who don't know any better into thinking it's a damage upgrade to use over Templar's Verdict. I sincerely hope that this isn't in the Dragonflight talent tree in any shape or form.

Other Shadowlands Abilities
Shadowlands has had some other hits and misses. Here's some takeaways for how this expansion has gone for Ret.

Divine Toll - This is a really obvious pick for the class tree. It's widely used by every Paladin spec and fits the class fantasy perfectly. That said, I do hope that the additional effects for it, Ringing Clarity and Divine Resonance, come along with the base ability. Without these extras, Divine Toll doesn't actually do very much on single target - it's just an extra judgment every minute. The burst Holy Power generation from Ringing Clarity is where the real strength of Divine Toll lies on single target. It'll still be a fine choice for AoE, but it'd be nice to see the trend of powerful abilities returning as much weaker versions in the next expansions stop.
Final Verdict - The extra range on Templar's Verdict is a great perk, and although it's not powerful enough on its own to be worth a talent point, it'd be great to see that effect rolled into another talent that buffs Templar's Verdict.
Light's Barding - The extra duration on Divine Steed might not seem like a big deal, but it's very noticeable when you can now start running both out of melee and back in with a single steed. I'd like to see this as an extra option on the class tree.
Consecration - Added with Shadowlands great unpruning, this is by far my least favourite Ret ability. Its problem is twofold - by itself, it doesn't interact with anything else you do as Ret. It doesn't cost or produce Holy Power like every other damage ability you have, it just does a small amount of damage. Despite that, players will still feel obliged to bind it and press it, since even if it's a tiny damage gain to do so, it's still a damage gain. Secondly, it fills Ret's downtime too efficiently. This might seem like a strange complaint to have, but I'll try to explain why I think this is an issue. Traditionally, Ret has been a spec with a fairly high amount of downtime, since you frequently needed to wait for your Holy Power generators to come off cooldown before continuing your rotation. This meant that as a player you were incentivized to optimize ability usage around their cooldowns, in order to maximize Holy Power gained over the course of the fight. This was also in tension with other effects like Whisper of the Nathrezim, where you were now having to decide between spending Holy Power sooner in order to maintain a buff, or letting it drop to maximize cooldown efficiency. In Shadowlands, Ret has practically no downtime. You'll always have a button to press that will do damage, even if it's just Consecration. If you don't pool Holy Power effectively enough or don't prioritize generators properly, you can press an extra button that will still do approximately the same amount of damage that you would have lost via suboptimal play. If Consecration does return, I hope that at least it has some interaction with the rest of Ret's abilities, either generate Holy Power like in BfA or have some other effect that makes it more interesting to press.
In a similar vein to the issues with Consecration but not tied to a specific ability, the value of different Holy Power generators, Judgment, Blade of Justice, and Hammer of Wrath, have drifted much closer this expansion than they were previously. There's very little difference in overall damage regardless of how you prioritize using them - you can basically use them interchangeably and it'll make no difference. I'd like to see the relative strength of each more clearly defined, so that decisions about how to use them actually matter again.

Older Abilities
Ret has had a huge number of different abilities over its history. While it's difficult to pick just a few, here's some that I would like to see make a return.

Blessing of Wisdom - This was a fantastic piece of unique utility that gave Ret some value and played into its class fantasy of buffing the raid perfectly. It's a huge shame this was removed without any reason other than homogenization of class utility at the start of Shadowlands.
Aegisjalmur, the Armguards of Awe / Divine Intervention (Legion) - Although I don't think it's likely to return, having access to either cheat death effect would help make Ret significantly less likely to die PvE content, something it unfortunately does a lot currently.
Long Arm of the Law / Pursuit of Justice - Favourites from WoD. Although Divine Steed basically serves the same function as Speed of Light, the other two options on this row would both be fantastic for Ret's currently poor mobility.
Divine Protection - Currently, Ret only has Shield of Vengeance and Divine Shield as damage mitigation options. This is far less than most melee specs, especially when they're both also on the GCD, and Ret usually has one of the highest death rates in most raids as a result. An extra defensive would go a long way to helping this, and Divine Protection is the most obvious choice.
Blessing of Salvation - No, this isn't a joke. One of Ret's biggest problems in Mythic+ is that when you start using your cooldowns, you will frequently pull aggro from the tank and die. This isn't just a "wait a few seconds and you'll live" problem, this will happen regardless of how long you wait to use them. An ability to help you play the game without randomly dying to something completely outside of your or your group's control when you finally are brave enough to use Avenging Wrath would be much appreciated.
Communion / Sanctified Retribution / Heart of the Crusader - Asking for a raid buff is a longshot, but it makes perfect sense for Ret given its history and class fantasy. It's stranger that Ret doesn't provide any raidwise damage increase now given that this used to be the core reason people brought Ret to raids.
Divine Hammer / Zeal / Greater Judgment - Currently, the only AoE generator Ret has is Wake of Ashes. An option for an AoE generator would help Ret's passive cleave a lot, which is already pretty poor since it does very little when it needs to use Templar's Verdict on a priority target instead of using Divine Storm.
Item - Paladin T18 Retribution 2P Bonus - This is one of the most fondly remembered tier set bonuses Ret's ever had. Extra charges of Avenging Wrath are obviously more overall damage, but they also make holding Avenging Wrath for specific points in a fight less punishing, since you can keep a charge banked for these specific moments. It's also just incredibly fun to have Avenging Wrath for a minute straight.

That was a lot of abilities to cover, and while there obviously isn't enough room in the talent tree for all of these, I hope the abilities that do need some work receive it. Altogether, the things I would like this new iteration of Ret to accomplish are to reorient the spec towards a reasonable amount of downtime and where there are more interesting rotational choices, to improve Ret's bad mobility and defensives to the same level as other melee specs, and to give it some raid utility that makes it easier to justify bringing a Ret to raid in comparison with other melee. Although all of those are unlikely to happen - this is a wishlist, after all - some improvements to Ret outside of purely the damage it does would be a relief.

123 4

Comment by HolybratHonestly, this is my opinion on all healers... Make healers healers again. If you wanna DPS in low keys good for you but don't make their entire kit work around doing a DPS rotation. Disc is fine how it works but holy palla and mw monk I just can't appreciate. And I know I'm probably in the minority but I'm not saying they should delete the ability to heal while being in meelee I'm just saying it should be a decision. Let me be the paladin looking in his books in the back if I want to and let the smashers smash but make them both as good.Comment by NeomagamBro I just want exorcism back 😭you missed exorcismComment by WyrhanBro I just want exorcism back 😭Comment by SpectrusLegendBolas talks about Divine Steed and Cavalier as if he hopes that garbage returns. No thanks.Comment by Paladinmaster44Prot really needs mobile consecration back.Comment by pawpurrHot take - I think Ashen Hallow was a great ability for Ret and Prot. It's a problem for Holy because somehow Holy Pally became "I deal lots of damage" as their healer niche. But having extra wide AOE damage like that is something Paladin has never really had, It was one of the only ways to keep up with specs like Boomkins in those spread out add phases, and the power-up synergy it provided to hammer of wrath/avenging wrath burst phases was really fun. I had really hoped that when double legendaries came we would be able to use 2 different hammer of wrath legendaries to let Venthyr Ret come out on top, but sadly it didn't work out that way.

Hot take 2- Divine Toll is just boring AF. I don't see how people think this is a cool ability or fun. Blizzard literally avoided designing a new spell by creating one that cast in existing spell instead. At least with druids and convoke, it cast different spells and had some nuance to using it. From a design perspective, Divine Toll completely phoned it in, which unfortunately, is a pretty common thing in paladin class design over the years.

Hot take 3- I'm a bit tired of yellow golden glowies being the ONLY theme paladins have. Wake of Ashes is a good example of how the style and visuals for Paladin can branch out a bit more. If the class is opened up to additional races (MOON THEMED ELUNE PALADINS PLS) then there can be a whole lot more development of the style.

PS: Yeah, I kinda do want exorcism back too, With the bonuses to evil types but usable on all targets, With the cast time outside of a proc. WOTLK-Cata era Ret was dynamite.Comment by SimplessConfused about the "Ret doesn't have a lot of defensives" take. They have bubble, shield of vengeance, lay on hands, BoP, and WoG. Bubble itself is probably the best defensive in the game - if they had other defensives alongside being able to immune anything while DPS'ing it'd be OP imoComment by dallaeThis article feels hollow. Why is the writer placating blizz like?

Downtime isn't acceptable. We don't need to be hitting nukes with every button press but standing there for 3-5s isn't fun for any person.

Why not demand our buffs back, as a class that traditionally had *alot* of different buffs it felt really bad having them taken away over and over. The game won't explode if ret and paladin as a whole had access to our iconic, thematic, staple buffs that most expect from a paladin.

Also talking utility without mentioning the fact that almost all the spells are on the GCD and share a mutual lock out is sad. Everyone always says pally self utility is bananas but don't realize you can only use one of the big spells every 30s. Raid bosses don't care about Forbearance, why are we punished for needing to use those spells.

Paladin has felt bad for a long time. We've paid blizz enough money to demand they bring back some of the things that made the class enjoyable and useful. Aggressive pvp tuning is necessary in order for pve ret to even have a chance of enjoying the game, it's not hard to realize and it's not hard to do.Comment by TruocGive us Ashes to ashes back, wake only generating 3 HP still feels bad, wake generating 5 again would be a welcome change and smooth the rotation out.Comment by flyingtoastrI hope Ashen Hallow gets launched into the sun where it belongs. Having the whole Holy spec balanced around that ability - especially for those of us who didn't play Venthyr - was miserable.

Divine Toll is the only covenant ability I see ending up in the tree, and I'd expect it to be in the general Pally tree. It fulfills a nice niche for every spec and just plays well, so I'd expect it to show up.Comment by geodude074Bro I just want exorcism back 😭Comment by escott410Hot take - I think Ashen Hallow was a great ability for Ret and Prot. It's a problem for Holy because somehow Holy Pally became "I deal lots of damage" as their healer niche. But having extra wide AOE damage like that is something Paladin has never really had, It was one of the only ways to keep up with specs like Boomkins in those spread out add phases, and the power-up synergy it provided to hammer of wrath/avenging wrath burst phases was really fun. I had really hoped that when double legendaries came we would be able to use 2 different hammer of wrath legendaries to let Venthyr Ret come out on top, but sadly it didn't work out that way.Comment by geodude074For me, the most iconic paladin ability is concecration. However, gameplay-wise it is often not very interesting.

It could be more interesting if other abilities had conditional modifiers which would apply when targets were standing in concecration.

Some example ideas:
1. (Holy) If you overheal a target standing in concecration, then party/raid members standing in that concecration recieve splash healing.
This would apply to main target and beacons, allowing tank healing and some additional aoe healing to the mele group.

2. (Ret) Ashen Hallow: A cooldown along the lines of the current venthyr ability which converts your concecration into an ashen hallow type zone (make it normal concecration size, but movable by recasting conc). Could then add in the current venthyr legendaries as extra talents.

3. (Prot) Divine Intervention: If Blessing of Sacrifice is cast on a target standing in your concecrtion, then it is cast on all party/raid members standing in your concecration.
This would need a reduced DR rate for tuning. The design idea is a raidwide DR, which the paladin soaks by bubbling the sacrifice damage.

I also note the ret section of the article was not fond of how it plays for ret currently. Could it be used to provide an AOE modifier to crusader strike, turning it into a mini wake of ashes style frontal cone cleave? This would make concecrate and CS more interesting, while providing an aoe buidler.Comment by roboscorcherAs a paladin main, no comment on the post itself....

On the other hand: Bring back seals from burning crusade lol.Comment by geodude074"give me exorcism, or give me death"

But really, whats more probable, a holy warrior preforming an exorcism, or manifesting a giant sword out of the ground.Comment by VailexAt this point I would get rid of holy light and just focus on melee/healing. Keep FoL and a couple talents for it. I don't feel like a melee oriented, full plate healer should stand around casting in battle. Id also dump mana and keep holy power or vice versa. Having both seems clunky. I also agree we should not get Ashen Hollow, simply get some talents to enable consecration healing and extend its range/damage. And ya, crusader strike is pitiful damage.Comment by roboscorcherAt this point I would get rid of holy light and just focus on melee/healing. Keep FoL and a couple talents for it. I don't feel like a melee oriented, full plate healer should stand around casting in battle. Id also dump mana and keep holy power or vice versa. Having both seems clunky. I also agree we should not get Ashen Hollow, simply get some talents to enable consecration healing and extend its range/damage. And ya, crusader strike is pitiful damage.Comment by SnowflakeszThe option for 2 charges and double duration for Steed Charge is a must.

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GET RID OF THIS STUPID %^&*ING ACTIVE AURA CRAP.Comment by geodude074
Take arena for instance, compared to other healers, if you wonna spam that low dmg out to help anything, you oom yourself faster that any healer, and that is crucial in the long end.

All in all, i just want to remove combo points for pala, and make denounce back, and make mana matter again with spirit mp5 and all. ( yes i liked that)Comment by RyderWhoever wrote the Ret pala section has no clue how to play the spec 100%

123 4