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Ret pala Expertise/hit cap
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Post by
Xzabea
Have been playing holy for a while a think i have i pretty much under control, but is starting to get good retri gear too, and is thinking about making that my new mainspec... but there is something i find a bit strange, i have been browsing retri palas from my own guild and other big guilds, and have yet to find a retri pala who is hit or expertise capped, all sockets are filled with str... but as i see it hit and expertise would be important for a retri, since attacks are slow and special attacks have a cd... but should i pump up str, and take the hit and expertise the gear gives, or try to cap it?
Over and out
/Togafau EU Deartwing
Post by
228908
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Post by
154749
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Post by
svirve
You shouldnt weight Hit any lower until you hit a cap. This is general for all classes since no matter if you increase hit from 7.8% to 7.9% you gain as much dps as going from 0.1% to 0.2%.
And as far as ret pallys go.. str Str STr STR on everything.
Post by
188424
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318018
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Post by
Fulgurah
There is, yet again, a ton of misinformation in this thread.
Please don't attempt to gain the hit cap through gemming or enchanting. In fact, do not ever gem for anything besides +Str. Every single slot. +Str is simply more DPS than hit/crit/expertise right now, regardless of your current hit numbers. This is an absolute cold-hard fact.
You take whatever Hit/Expertise you have on gear. But you wear the gear for other reasons, like how much Strength you can cram into it. Do not go out of your way to reach the caps. It will simply gimp your DPS in the end.
And Elverdir, you will have lower DPS with those gems. Fact.
Post by
157599
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Post by
reyan
My guy
I'm both hit and expertise capped and I do 3.3K plus dmg on Heroic/raid bosses
...when you can be doing more.
what is wrong with you, youre not only hit capped youre WAY OVER the hit cap. 2479 ap unbuffed? seriously? 27% crit? and youre gemming for expertise and hit?
you are insane, strength > everything else. end of discussion.
Post by
291973
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Post by
240993
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Post by
Fulgurah
you are insane, strength > everything else. end of discussion.
RETARD
If you not hit capped big hitting abilities miss and your DPS nosedives on a moment by moment basis. You may long term do more DPS but your garunteed to get boss fights where an horrific string of mises and dodges results in your DPS over the duration of the fight dropping drasticlly. In a raid, even at entry level the rest of the group can probabl;y cover for your incompatance. In an heroic you outgear, they can cover for your incompatance. But you go into an heroic at entry level and do a miss/dodge mess on a boss and you;ll drag the fight out so badly that the heakler will go OOM and you'll all wipe.
There's more to doing DPS than big numbers. The most impiortant part of doing DPS is that you can GARUNTEE that DPS day in day out no matter what the fight or what the luck is. Becuase that garuntee is what makes your DPS useful to a group, not the pretty numbers when you never miss and are never dodged.
And please don't tell me it dosen't happen, we've got a DK in our guild ATM who is still pushing towards the hit cap and his DPS on a fight varies anywhere from 1.2 upto 1.8 with an average of about 1.4, and a quick parse of the recount logs show that a lot of it is down to the average miss rate for the fight, (the rest generally hinging on how long he was able to get DRW up for). Yes fairs fair DK's work diffrently to pallys i know, but it stil proves the important point, a bad set of misses murders your DPS.
No, no, no, no, and no. No. No. No.
This is simply wrong, ill-informed, badly argued and...wrong. Not only it is not incompetence, it is simply a fact based on the math of WoW that a point of Strength far exceeds a point of Hit EVEN if you are not hit-capped.
It is literally insane for a Ret Paladin these days to gem for hit or expertise. It's moronic. And they will not be maximizing their DPS if they are.
You bring terrible ancedotal evidence as well. Not being hit capped will probably not bring a "bad string of misses." As I currently sit, without gemming or enchanting for hit, I have 5.5% of hit on my gear. This means I will miss 1.5% of the time. Now, if I miss more than 1 or 2 abilities in a fight, it's a fluke. If I miss 2 in a row, it's a mathematic fluke. It happens, but very very infrequently. Instead of guaranteeing that I hit those 1.5% of times, it means more to me to get as much as possible out of those abilities I do land.
This seems contrary to what most players have learned. And it is. Ret Paladins are in a unique position where Strength scales SO well that it makes us want to stack it to all hell.
Again, I'll point out that if you look at the top Ret Paladins out there, not a single one will be gemming or enchanting for hit/expertise. Why? Because it's moronic.
Now please, get a clue before posting.
Post by
svirve
Chance to miss a boss with no +hit gear: 8%
Chance to be dodged by a boss: 6.5%
14.5% chance to do no damage.
In order to get an unlucky string of dodges and misses you would need to be VERY unlucky.
14.5% chance: no damage, X chance: crit and Y(100-X-14,5) chance: normal hit.
(im not counting glancing blows since it only occurs on white swings and actually doesnt affect the other tables)
That's the statistics on an attack swing when you dont have any hit gear.
So lets see how "easy" it is to get an unlucky string of 5 dodges/misses.
First attack: 14.5% chance: no damage
Second attack: 14.5%*14.5%=2.1% chance: no damage
Third attack: 14.5^3=0.30% chance: no damage
Fourth attack: 14.5^4=0.044% chance: no damage
Fifth attack: 14.5^5=0,0064% chance: no damage
So practically once every 78 125 hits you will get an unlucky string of 5 misses.
And as "KarlBar99" suggests this happens several times every fight. So let us calculate who's the retard now?
A 6 minute fight (a very long one) wielding lets say "
Ooooh shiny!
" will yield us:
105 Normal weapon swings.
(60*6)/3,4
240 Abilites.
(60*6)/1.5
That's not even close to 78 125 hits. So let's see what we need to make it happen several times in a fight.
Lets go for a 10 minute fight and try to get 4 of these unlucky strings (4*78125=312500) and remember 4 really aint several it's few.
During a 10 minute fight we can do 400 abilities ((60*10)/1,5)
In order to do another 312100 strikes we would need weapon with an attack speed of:
600/312100=0,002
As a final note i'd like just to deliver a personal message to KarlBar99.. You go girl!
Post by
daboss40
I feel like Inertius might start hacking accounts and deleting the toons of morons just to make a point...
If I see one more ret pally over the hit cap and exp cap, with 2800ap claiming that he does awesome dps cause of his hit cap, i might punch a baby.
To all those who think ret pallies are like other melee dps classes, get a clue. Through talents, we receive 2.3ap per strength. we get over 2.5 when you count BoK. That means we scale better than DKs, rogues, hunters, or just about anyone when it comes to our STR (or AGI) to AP ratio. In idiotspeak, this means that STR for ret is godlike compared to any other stat, whether capped or not. We will, through gear, reach 5-7% hit anyways, which means we'l only miss 1-3% of our attacks anyways.
To lose 5% damage in order to hit 2% more is dumb
. I don't care who told you what, or what you think your test dummy parses tell you, Ret scales with STR better than any other class can possibly scale with a stat. Period.
Also, consider that our most damaging raid spell,
Consecration
, doesn't use hit at all. It doesn't miss. However, it scales very nicely with AP and SP, which in turn, come from Strength.
Hope this helps
Post by
svirve
Consecration, doesn't use hit at all. It doesn't miss
These guys that know what
they're doing say you're wrong
Someone say WHAAAA?
I know we're actually on the same side but.. MISINFORMATION IS BLASPHEMY!
Post by
Fulgurah
Yeah, the first tick of Consecration can miss, while all the other ticks cannot. I think his general point still stands, though.
Post by
daboss40
Thanks for the post, but yea, it only invalidates my point by 10% (the other 9 ticks can't miss).
STACK STRENGTH NOWWW!
Post by
svirve
Thanks for the post, but yea, it only invalidates my point by 10% (the other 9 ticks can't miss).
STACK STRENGTH NOWWW!
I wasnt out to invalidate your point just to make sure that no one comes in here quoting you flaming us all for being noobs saying that Consecrate cant miss, when it actually can miss.
Sure this is not that big of a hassle the thread will be locked within 24 hours but it's another thread that shouldnt have existed to begin with.
Post by
240993
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Post by
svirve
I did not sday several times a fight
Okay then let me start out with a few quotes.
I will also comment each quote.
If you not hit capped big hitting abilities miss and your DPS nosedives on a moment by moment basis
Does this not imply that it will happen alot?
but your garunteed to get boss fights where an horrific string of mises and dodges results in your DPS over the duration of the fight dropping drasticlly.
Once again a suggestion that it happens alot.
In a raid, even at entry level the rest of the group can probabl;y cover for your incompatance. In an heroic you outgear, they can cover for your incompatance. But you go into an heroic at entry level and do a miss/dodge mess on a boss and you;ll drag the fight out so badly that the heakler will go OOM and you'll all wipe.
Now you're suggesting that because you're not hit/expertise capped your group/raid might as well leave you out since you're just a placeholder.
There's more to doing DPS than big numbers.
I bet you dont play a ret pally now do you?
The most impiortant part of doing DPS is that you can GARUNTEE that DPS day in day out no matter what the fight or what the luck is
Let me just put it like this. If i miss every strike for a whole fight of 6 minutes but that 1 strike does 1 800 000 damage i would still have a DPS of 5 000 does that not make me valuable?
And i did prove to you that it's not a question about luck. It's more a question of: are you gonna get caught in a black hole today?
Becuase that garuntee is what makes your DPS useful to a group, not the pretty numbers when you never miss and are never dodged.
Now you seem to be contradicting yourself saying that guaranteed DPS is better then reaching the hit/expertise cap.
And please don't tell me it dosen't happen,
I believe i just proved to you that it will happen but only once every 200-300 fights. And that's with NO hit or expertise at all! Just your gear alone will get you to 5%-6% without gemming/enchanting.
we've got a DK
How can you even compare a DK to a pala? DK's are concerned with the following: hit, spell hit, expertise, crit, AP, STR just to name a few.
and a quick parse of the recount logs show that a lot of it is down to the average miss rate for the fight
I actually highly doubt you bothered parsing recount logs just to find out why he was going from 1.2k to 1.8k DPS that's just extremely silly.
Yes fairs fair DK's work diffrently to pallys i know, but it stil proves the important point, a bad set of misses murders your DPS.
It doesnt prove any point. Perhaps that you might have been talking to yourself when you said "retard" earlier. You're practically saying: a person that weights 20kg has the exact same likelyhood of tipping a 1:1 scale in his direction as a person that weights 200kg
You see thats not the don't have any hit raing or expertise at all that the poster was suggesting, getting your average miss rate and doge rate that low cuts the chances of a bad string below once a week, pronbably even below once a month. it may not be 100% dependable, but it's close enough.
Wait.. What what what what? Weren't you the guy flaming people earlier and calling them retards cause they were going for STR over hit?
As for the OP, he/she was wondering as to how hit and expertise were important to him/her as retri. And alot of people clearly informed him/her that it will come with gear and that he/she should indeed stack STR to infinity and back.
The DK I was talking about was mostly PvP geared and hovering at a couple of expertise rating and 2% ish hit, his DPS was all over the place from stuff missing, we ran 4 instances that night so between that and some of the more reliabile trash enouners, (i.e. the ones where everyone got perfect position and just got to go to town), i'd say the evidance was far from terribble.
THIS IS NOT EVIDENCE. NOT HERE NOT ON THE DK FORUMS! DK's ARE NOT PALADINS!
in other words it's nothing but extremely terrible
If you're gonna contradict a whole community you better have strict facts and atleast some theorycrafting in your trunk.
Not just "i have a DK in my guild"...
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