PvP Feral: Mangle or Shred?

Сообщение от JaxOmen

Mangle: No directional requirement, lower energy cost
Shred: somewhat more damage (what, 10%? Not sure).

Anyway, is it worth talenting for reduced cost on shred for a PvP feral spec, or should I not be worrying about shred and mangling every opportunity instead?

I plan on doing feral/subtlety/disc 3s, if that helps any.

My thought is that I should talent for improved mangle, since I'm running with a rogue and don't need the slow from Infected Wounds (I'm taking 1/3 for disease protection for my priests' devouring plague), so that I can get an extra mangle in from full->empty energy, and use Shred only on OOC procs. Is this thought process wrong?

Сообщение от Kramp

Let's look at basic numbers.

We will use an auto-attack of 100 for our example.

Mangle is 200% attack+634 = 834 basic mangle damage
Shred is 225%+724.5= 999.5 basic shred damage

BUT shred is increased by 50% with mangle and Rend and Tear so Shred damage become 1499.

Talented, both talent cost the same amount of energy ( 39 ).

So, based on damage, Shred is way over mangle ( nearly 80% more effective ).

Not only that but shred gives you more rip ticks, an essential dot in arenas.

The final answer: use shred as your main attack.

Сообщение от 109094

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Сообщение от Lightrain

Shred.

Always.

I had to kill a resto druid with mangle because he sees a feral and backs up to a wall/ledge so I can't shred him... It wasn't fun.

Learn to love/abuse/be consistant with Shred.

I did a few duels in Dal against some random people on saturday. I can easily burst down disc priests or shaman, Resto druids only if they don't have barkskin and a trinket, or peels, and paladins just don't do enough damage to kill me, so I wear them down.

Сообщение от JaxOmen

Talented Mangle: 34 Energy, 240% weapon damage plus 760.8
Talented Shred: 42 Energy, 225% weapon damage plus 742 times 1.3 times 1.2

Mangle: 7% weapon damage plus 22.3 per energy
Shred: 8.4% weapon damage plus 27.56 per energy.

I know Shred is more damage. By about 20%. That wasn't the question.

My question was "is shred ENOUGH more damage to justify trying to work around the directional requirement?". In PvP I am constantly shredding someone's back, only to have (due to lag) them already turned, and shred simply fails to go off. This is infuriating.

Also, mangle spam leads to faster combo points, I don't know how this affects our damage output.

So, let me ask again. Is Shred ENOUGH better than Mangle to justify tolerating the directional requirements, or would I be better off speccing into improved mangle and having a more reliable, but slightly weaker, combo point builder.

Сообщение от Lightrain

So, let me ask again. Is Shred ENOUGH better than Mangle to justify tolerating the directional requirements, or would I be better off speccing into improved mangle and having a more reliable, but slightly weaker, combo point builder.

I'll restate it as simply as possible.....

Shred.

Always.

I had to kill a resto druid with mangle because he sees a feral and backs up to a wall/ledge so I can't shred him... It wasn't fun.

Learn to love/abuse/be consistant with Shred.

I did a few duels in Dal against some random people on saturday. I can easily burst down disc priests or shaman, Resto druids only if they don't have barkskin and a trinket, or peels, and paladins just don't do enough damage to kill me, so I wear them down.

To Clarify.

Shred Vs Mangle-

Mangle- No direction requirement, less damage, talent it 3 points to make it remotely viable. Gets Dodged/parried 30-40% of the time against rogues/hunters/ferals/enh shaman, 10-15% of the time against others.

Shred- More damage, higher crits, more burst(For me, I've seen max 5800 mangle crits, 7.5-7.8k shred crits against resil geared targets). Directional reqirement means shred is never dodged/parried, and eats right thru evasion/deterance/shield block. Requires 2 points to talent, and doesn't waste Rend and Tear, which you will have so you can get Primal Gore which is a major talent in PvP and PvE.

OoC procs and Berserk make Shred that much more appealing. Burst that isn't being avoided 3-6 globals in a row is way bigger so long as you can get position without your energy bar filling back up every time you use it.

Or, you can look at my armory, and appreciate my advice after you check out my feral.

Сообщение от 109094

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от 109094

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от JaxOmen

Сообщение от Lightrain

Now then, Given that shred is better... how do you guys deal with the directional requirements? As I said, I am having troubles because it frequently fails to use the skill because the target, who I am attacking from behind, has moved and hasn't updated that movement on my end yet. I play with ~150ms ping.

The math doesn't matter. We all know that shred is more damage, burst or DPS wise.

Move. A lot. While spamming Shred.

That's how you counter defensive turning. Watch some feral druid PvP videos. They are always moving, and you will need to constantly powershift out of slows/snares.

Feral is MUCH easier if you have a low ping, but it's not impossible with your ping. If I was playing on LAN and had say, a 10 ms ping along with my enemies having the same ping, I would be able to pull some incredible things out of my "book of amazing feral tricks." But, life sucks, and we are stuck with horrible ping and trying to fight a healer who has bad ping and horrible lag spikes is sometimes beyond stupid.

Сообщение от JaxOmen

So basically move about erratically while wailing on my shred button and hope I catch their backs regardless of what shows on screen? That seems... counterintuitive.

Сообщение от 129690

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Archael

Then roll a caster. Your question has been answered.

Сообщение от Lightrain

So basically move about erratically while wailing on my shred button and hope I catch their backs regardless of what shows on screen? That seems... counterintuitive.

At least until you learn how to move to get shreds consitantly. If I'm not slowed, I never sit at full energy. If strafing doesn't work, run thru and turn quickly. If that doesn't work, strafe back and forth across the target until that doesn't work, then turn 90% toward his back and do it some more.

You can't really explain it, you have to have experience at doing it.

Сообщение от pelf

Сообщение от Keley

Even if Mangle-spam is more dps, when you're behind your target, you wont take damage, so you can survive longer w/o heals, which means more damage.

Сообщение от 346424

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Edimmu

I got what was said. What was said is wrong. Mangle is not 200%, it is 240%. Unless, of course, you skip Savage Fury, in which case I don't want your advice anyway.

I posted the math. Shred is 20% better. Not the 50% you keep spouting.

Now then, Given that shred is better... how do you guys deal with the directional requirements? As I said, I am having troubles because it frequently fails to use the skill because the target, who I am attacking from behind, has moved and hasn't updated that movement on my end yet. I play with ~150ms ping.

I just love the first part, most of them just post it 200%, like they never played a feral b4, drives me nuts sometimes.:) I myself don't use shred, not even in pve (though i would if i would play a pure dps build); i sacrificed rend and tear, and sadly primal gore for hybrid bear talents. the 1k more dmg is just not enough for the other sec i have to wait sometimes to get my energy to 42, plus at my ping (200-300) getting behind targets it's just not working. yes, i'm using the spin in them tehnique, and i mangle. just having to shred is not viable not even with infected wounds, heck, i always face rogues in duels when not cc'd, and that's with -70%, just by mouseturning. I can't just expect different from my opponents. so my advice would be to use mangle till u get more pro, and master it as Lightrain did.

(i base my decision on bgs, duels, and a limited number of arena games, none with high ratings).

Сообщение от razzem

This is a really interesting thread, so I'm bringing it back to life.

For pvp, I'm wanting to change things up a bit... been doing resto for a long time, which is fun, but I'm contemplating having some offensive fun with Feral (4 piece set bonus is the best in-game, imo).

Shred does more dmg, but Imp. Mangle is cheap, no position required, and leaves you with more energy to respond with Maim easier than Shred. Plus Imp. Mangle is great for solo grin ding/questing.

So any of you Mangle spammers have any tips on how to gear. Haste, Crit, AP/STR, AGI, armor pen? What do you focus on the most when considering pvp playing, and for crossing over between cat and bear? Any glyphs you've found useful for pvp as feral (barkskin?)?

Kudos

Сообщение от Lightrain

Mangle spamming is bad. Don't do it.

To bring back what I said previously. 10-15% of your attacks will be dodged/parried unless the target is an enemy player and they are casting. This leaves you with 10-15% of your attacks just wasting energy. PvP specs have zero points in Primal Precision, which means negating those energy losses requires another 2 points in your spec and you are still spamming a debuff for an attack. This is like a rogue spamming Shiv and saying he's dps'ing IMO.

Learn to shred in PvP. It's better, and a lot more fun to do. We were playing 3's last night, and I was killing healers left and right with 6600 crit shreds back to back followed up with 9300 FB's. I even shotted a rogue from half HP with a 12.2k FB crit last night.

Trust me. Shred or reroll resto.

PvP Feral: Mangle or Shred?

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