GC promised me a pony, or why people need to stop qq'ing about DKs and ret paladins

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Сообщение от 251480

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Сообщение от Wildhorn

That's the problem. They are too much balanced. They are the 2 class closest to "Every class are the same".

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Сообщение от ZoraLink

heres some reasons why i dont like dks/think their op

melee class that can hit with spells from range, and does spell damage over time (im going to use deep unholy/blood dk for this).
95 percent slow (best in game)
silence (only melee class with a silence besides prot warrior)
5 second immunity to ALL spells while still being able to fully attack on 45 second cd (hunter deterrance ftl (1 minute 30 sec cd), lol... i know that this blocks everything, not just spells, but still, lol)
instant 50 percent slow for anyone their attacking with desecration (warriors have to use gc to piercing howl or hamstring)
ghoul stun... it may not seem like a big thing, but you have to spec into bm as a hunter just to get a stun. pets have better ability these days, but theres nothing more annoying
death pact 40 percent instant health on 2 min cd (warriors is 3 mins for engraged regeneration and is 30 percent health over time)
death strike
rune tap on 30 sec cd (20 percent of your health on 30 sec cd? ) lmao
icebound fortitude (only melee class with full stun immunity. pallies can free themselves from stun if talented with hand of freedom, but they dont have stun immunity)

for a class that is by itself (a melee plate class) incredibly hard to kill.. gj in giving it just about everything under the sun it need to be unstoppable. imo... there is not a class that can kill a skilled dk. (maybe prot warrior)

the main reason why i dont care so much, is that most dks i run into are either total or semi-noobs, so i pwn them. when i run into an actually skilled dk, i find it extremely hard to win, and i usually dont.

just for reference, i have 80 druid, hunter, shammy, rogue, lock, 70 warr, 66 dk, 66 priest, 55 mage, and 37 pally, lol

On my priest, I just DoT'em up, shackle their ghoul, then fear them and once the fear wears off, mind control. Letting people watch themselves slowly die to DoTs is fun :)

Сообщение от 201789

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Сообщение от 243770

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Сообщение от Eleazer

@lavatsunami - You have a wealth of misinformation in your post. Here are a few that I want to point out.
1. Not all dk's have a pet stun. Only unholy or those that spec into perma-ghoul.
2. Rune Tap is only for blood sub spec or blood deep spec. If you are deep frost or unholy you can't get to Rune Tap without sacrificing some key offensive abilities.
3. The spell hits from range are weak at best. They are less powerful than say an enhance shaman (melee class that spell hits from range), and equal to a feral druid (we can hit from range it's just instant death if we are caught that way). If you can force a dk to stay at ranged smacking you than you win easily.
4. Only unholy DK's have Desecration. Everyone makes the claim that "DK'S" have desecration and pet stun. THIS IS ONLY THE UNHOLY DK NOT EVERY SINGLE ONE. Your constant griping is centered around a single tree and your confusion of all three trees is hilarious.
5. Blood DK's are the only one who can death strike for a heal that is even effective. However Blood DK's specced deep enough to do a 14k heal are not represented in Arena's at all. Why because they can't do anything else, they are simply survival monkeys.
6. 80 percent of the cooldown's you listed cost either a rune or a runic power which eliminates the ability to do anything but white damage if used at the wrong time for at least 5-6 seconds while waiting for that rune to come back up.

Everyone hates Chains of Ice. It is ridiculously overpowered. Yesterday in arena's I was 300 health from killing a healer, but a frost dk hit me with 5 Chains in a row. I was on my druid and kept shapeshifting to get out, but 5 in a row at 95 percent each time is ridiculous. That's stronger than anything even a frost mage can throw at me. The only way to avoid that is to have bof tossed on me. The biggest problem with Chains of Ice is not that it's a 95 percent slow, it's that it shares no DR and has no DR in it, and can be cast every 10 seconds.

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Сообщение от Lightrain

Arena representation for both of these groups is low. very low. While the paladin class represents around 18% of all players in the top tiers of pvp, barely any of these are ret (the majority being holy). DKs are currently the least represented class in high level pvp, just under druids. And yet, there are some people who seem to not understand how "balanced" these classes are in comparison to others. The problem for ret, at least, is obvious. The class provides several defensive cooldowns, as well as decent innate survivability. But without an adequate amount of offensive utility, the spec will always be dead in the water in comparison to others.

The problems with DKs are more complex. Much of the incessant qq'ing about DKs stems less from their current state in pvp, but from lingering resentment from 3.0, when they were, in fact, over powered.

Thoughts? Comments? rants?

Title is credited to spcmack. thank you.

That's basically it. The QQ comes from 1v1 skills. 1v1 skill translates to 2v2 skill, but ends up as sub par in 3v3 and replaceable in 5v5.

Сообщение от ZoraLink

On my priest, I just DoT'em up, shackle their ghoul, then fear them and once the fear wears off, mind control. Letting people watch themselves slowly die to DoTs is fun :)

I think its not that easy when the DK actually isn't AFK and do something

Bubbles and dispels solves all :)

Сообщение от 241152

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Сообщение от 450989

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Сообщение от Eleazer

@kindran - I realize that and play a DK. Though I don't frequent my dk in arenas. I do use him in BG for kicks. I can cast CoI twice than hit the guy with two blood strikes, a plague strike hit him with Icy Touch and then obliterate. DG him back to me. CoI him some more and blow him up.

You don't give up alot of damage you give up minimal damage approximately 3k per swing if you crit. And if you are blood or unholy than you give up even less because you aren't really using your frost runes for anything other than Icy Touch. THan after you Chains of Ice the guy you have runic power so you spam Frost Strike or Death Coil which are pretty powerful.

Chains of Ice is as close to a perma slow as you can get. And it has no diminishing returns. Do you realize how crazy that is? Every other slow that has no diminshing returns does a 50 percent slow. I have fought as a dk and fought dk's and CoI is my biggest issue.

Сообщение от 319099

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Сообщение от Gnostik

The fact is the vast majority of players don't participate in the high level PvP that you're talking about, and so the statistics you cite are totally irrelevant to popular opinion. Most people's views are based on their own experiences in BG combat and low level arena, not on who is best represented in the top brackets.

When two teams decked out in roughly the same top level PvP gear, highly skilled at the split-second reaction-based play that goes on in the arena, they are playing a different game from most of WoW's playerbase. Arena is a unique animal.

If top level PvPers were saying that Ret and DKs were overpowered, then that would be puzzling. But there's nothing puzzling about the unskilled masses' basically uninformed views not matching up to reality.

As for why these two might be perceived as OP, I will hold off on any theories. For one, I don't really hear anyone complaining about Ret Pallies. And as for DKs, people have complained about them since the expansion launched. (Don't get me wrong, I understand why DKs are seen as such. I just haven't been having much trouble with them lately. Maybe cuz Ghost Wolf > CoI.)

So I'm not sure why you've picked these two as the classes which are currently seen as OP. If I had to pick I would probably choose Arms Warriors or Resto Druids. But then I, too, would be talking about PvP generally, not the exclusive world of high level arena.