Legion came with a tremendous amount of class changes, and Ladino
s were a big part of this. We've been making adjustments/improvements to many specs since Legion has launched, and that will continue, especially for Ladino
s in the near future. Let's talk Ladino
fantasy and mechanics a bit.Assassination
Assassination has always had the Poison theme, but we think Bleeds pair well with Poisons here, both fantasy-wise and mechanically. The idea that you can apply a slew of Poison and Bleed damage over times to the target, dooming your enemy to certain death is one of our core fantasies for Assassination. At this point Assassination is clearly less of a "get in, kill, and get out" spec - that distinction is now more on Subtlety.
Agree that the balance of Bleeds vs. Poisons might be a little heavy on the Bleeds side currently on the baseline spec. That wasn't really super intentional. Assassination got Mutilar
, and Frieza
(probably the most obvious choices for a baseline rotation) after we divided up many of the Ladino
skills between specs in 7.0. So the spec essentially already started a little Bleed-heavy. Add on top of that Sangue do Assassinado
(which is fairly strong and everyone has) and Dessangrar
(which was overtuned at launch), both of which prop up bleeds more.
We like that the Assassination talent tree has two thematic paths - Poison (Mestre Envenenador
) and Bleed (Hemorragia
). But we lean on our talent trees to do so much more than just let you choose between 2 thematic paths for your spec fantasy - they have to offer simple passives vs. added complexity via new buttons, single target vs. AOE mechanics, playstyle/pacing customization, and more. And of course, all of this is extremely sensitive to the tuning and design of talents, set bonuses, legendaries, and artifact traits. Any one of these variables could be newly introduced or overtuned/undertuned and easily push Assassination down either the Poison or Bleeds talent path, essentially against your will if you like one theme over the other but want to maximize damage. For example, at Legion launch, Hemo + Exsan was the standard build, and now it's switched over to Mestre Envenenador
+ Agonizing. Tier 19 pushes Poison damage a bit via Envenenar
, but Tier 20 might push Bleed damage a bit via Frieza
(note: T20 designs are still in flux, many are likely to change). We want to make both paths viable, but should be realistic and recognize that many variables can and will affect this, and that the balance will fluctuate over time.
On a couple talents:
- : We don't really like for many reasons. It replaces Veneno Mortal (which feels core to Ladino de Assassinato) with an extremely passive, mostly invisible, and currently very strong Poison debuff that makes target-swapping and AOE more difficult. It's got a lot of things going wrong with it and is on the chopping block for the next patch. Ideas for replacements include a short-cooldown AOE Poison damage button that costs high energy or something that deals Poison damage in a rotationally-interesting way.
- Dessangrar : This is a good talent. It has a clear theme with interesting mechanical and rotational implications. We'll look at tuning based on what happens with , but plans are to buff its damage and add a small energy cost, not because of tuning but because on-GCD buttons that don't cost Energy sometimes lead to Energy-capping, which doesn't feel good.
Overall we think the single-target Assassination rotation is in a good place. There are nuances to applying and maintaining your bleeds with maximizing Envenenar
uptime being an underlying core part of the rotation, as it has been for a long time.Outlaw
The pirate theme is clear, and clearly contentious. I think it would be accurate to say there are many players who like the fantasy of the spec and many who don't. As a class with 3 specs of the same role, this is probably an okay place to be in.
We have a couple major mechanical goals for Outlaw in the next patch:
- Rebalance Golpe de Sorte : This is a two-parter.
The first part is tuning each of the single-buffs against each other, narrowing the gap in power level between any two single-buffs. You should see this when the next patch hits PTR.
The second part is more complex - we're considering removing the incentive to reroll almost entirely and re-acclimating everyone to getting 1 buff from RTB most of the time and not rerolling. The main problem involves ensuring the average expected value of casting Golpe de Sorte is close enough to 1.0 buffs that it's not better to reroll. With either the current 6-dice or an alternate 5-dice natural system, the probabilities are such that it's too lucrative to reroll when you get a single-buff right now.
The current proposal is to reduce the number of dice being rolled from 6 to 5 and to hand-set probabilities to something like 79% chance for 1-buff, 20% chance for 2-buffs, and 1% chance for 5-buffs (yahtzee), bringing the expected value of a roll down to 1.24 buffs (plus additional value for synergies between buffs). The downside to this is that if you take a deep look at the probability distribution, in order for this to work, you realize that the dice would have to be loaded against the player. This isn't something we'd prefer to do (adjust randomness against the player's favor), but it might be something we have to do with the current Golpe de Sorte dice system in order to remove the incentive to reroll.
Overall we want to reduce how much the spec is defined by Golpe de Sorte. RTB can be most of the time a single buff that might change your pacing or rotation slightly with relatively rare bonuses of 2-buffs or 5-buffs, but that the spec should completely work both mechanically and damage-wise without RTB, if you want to take Retalhar as a replacement.
- Smooth out Energy Generation : Outlaw suffers a bit rotationally from unpredictable Energy generation and Energy-flooding during Adrenalina. The changes we're doing here are pretty simple and direct but should help to alleviate this issue - Adrenalina reduced Energy regen increase but increased duration and Florescer Fatal procs twice as often for half the Energy each proc.
Subtlety in the long-term it has some room for improvements. For the next patch the first things we're looking at are:
- Dança das Sombras : Dança das Sombrass happen a lot more than they used to and in PvE, that's been mostly a welcome change. The rotation is more dynamic than it used to be in previous expansions, with you going in and out of Dança das Sombras more often. However, set bonuses, artifact traits, and legendaries frequently grant resources (to any spec) as their bonus (because it's mechanically interesting), and in the case of Subtlety, increased Energy/Combo Points has pushed Dança das Sombras uptime to be higher than we think is good for the spec.
Additionally, from both PvE and PvP Subtlety Rogues, we've heard that the spec's feeling of burstiness has been severely reduced, partially as a result of Dança das Sombrass happening more frequently. We'd like to address this in the next patch with a couple changes. First, Deepening Shadows will be reduced from 3 to 1-1.5 sec of cooldown reduction per Combo Ppoint baseline. Dança das Sombras baseline charges reduced from 3 to 2. New talents on the same row that compete against each other will either 1) increase Sombras Copiosas back up to the current 3 sec or 2) grant you increased damage during Dança das Sombras. This lets you customize your Shadow Dance to happen more often, or be most bursty when it does happen. As usual, we'll retune the damage of the spec alongside these changes, but the first focus should be on changes to pacing and mechanics.
- Lâmina Soturna : On single-target, Lâmina Soturna works okay mechanically as a damage button that you press occasionally, but it doesn't really play as we'd like in AOE situations. The AOE rotation of Shuriken Storm->Lâmina Soturna everything isn't what we feel Subtlety should be about, on top of being basically identical to the Assassination AOE rotation. A direction we'd like to go is - Subtlety deals increased damage in AOE by dealing massively increased damage to a single target. In this vein, we're considering a new baseline passive that does something like "Each enemy hit by Tempestade de Shurikens increases the damage of your next Eviscerar by ~25%, up to a max of ~5 stacks", which would push Lâmina Soturna completely out of the AOE rotation on 4+ targets.
Separately but related, we don't think Lâmina Soturna is a perfect fit for the Subtlety fantasy. On top of being a core rotational damage over time ability on a "get in and get out/bursty" Rogue spec, it's also the passive snare on the spec, which we think could be delivered more simply by re-adding Veneno Debilitante back to the spec at some point in the future. Tying Subtlety Rogue's snare to a shadow-themed DoT was clearly an attempt at further separating Subtlety vs. Assassination as Shadow vs. Poison, but in hindsight might have been overkill, and it probably wouldn't hurt Subtlety's fantasy that much to have utility poisons back, if we don't find a better fantasy+mechanical alternative for the spec. Don't have concrete long-term plans on this specific subtopic, but it's on our minds.
As an aside on the topic of adding back spells - after doing a lot of class fantasy-focusing and spell pruning in Legion 7.0 (which had many successes as well as failures), we've been adding back some spells to specs (though we do have some strict requirements here) which in hindsight didn't need to be removed. Good examples for Ladino are Cegar (which we removed from Assassination) and Mortalha da Ocultação (which we removed from all Ladino specs), both of which we have since added back. The removal of Cegar from Assassination made the spec a little too one-dimensional on the crowd-control front and the removal of Mortalha da Ocultação cost the class a interesting button that provided rare moments of coolness, without any rotational complexity or huge downsides aside from being an additional button.
- Golpe Sombrio : In the PvE rotation, Golpe Sombrio coming with a 15 yd teleport is mostly unnecessary, and also sometimes causes usability issues as an uncontrolled teleport on your core rotation. You might be in melee range, and suddenly the boss moves and rotates a bit, and suddenly you Golpe Sombrio teleport into a spot you don't want to be in.
What we want to do here is add Emboscar back to the spec as the replacement in the core rotation for Golpe Sombrio, and move Shadowstrike to a 30 second cooldown and back up to 25 yd range. Golpe Sombrio would become the second gap closer for Subtlety, different from Passo Furtivo in that it's essentially Passo Furtivo + Emboscar in one button. On the table are alternatives like removing Golpe Sombrio entirely and giving Passo Furtivo reduced cooldown or 2 charges, but we currently feel Golpe Sombrio is cool enough of a button and high enough on the usability meter that it deserves a spot on the spec. We'd probably keep the damage, cost, and stealth requirement of Emboscar and Golpe Sombrio identical in all cases to make Golpe Sombrio's only benefit over Emboscar being the teleport.
When it comes to class/spec fantasy - players (including us) have many differing ideas. Even in this thread there are completely different thoughts and interpretations on what Ladino
fantasy should be for each of the 3 specs. It's really hard to completely satisfy everyone. Our ongoing goal is to deliver distinct spec fantasies and playstyles that appeal to enough players and are fun enough to deserve a spot as one of the class's specs.
I dont think the first point of one rtb buff will ever be possible. There will always be a buff sought after more than the others, and if you were to somehow put a CD on rtb for the duration of the buff to lockout rerolls it will simply feel punishing to play the class.
The second idea I think has a lot more merit, taking out one of the buffs will greatly improve getting a good combo. I enjoy outlaw as a playstyle for the most part, the only time I ever feel punished for playing the spec is when I'm trying to fish for TB and continue to get any one buff besides that. So I am all for your second idea here. Personally I think Grand Melee wont be missed.