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Postado por
Kinesis
This has just gotten out of hand.
edit: also the game
Postado por
273605
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Postado por
229791
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Postado por
148723
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Postado por
Hyperspacerebel
How is a series of interconnected events 'chaos'?
Complexity =/= chaos
Postado por
Kinesis
How is a series of interconnected events 'chaos'?
Complexity =/= chaos
Chaos Theory is the idea that every single element of the universe is so hopelessly intertwined that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause the economic collapse of a small city.
Postado por
Hyperspacerebel
How is a series of interconnected events 'chaos'?
Complexity =/= chaos
Chaos Theory is the idea that every single element of the universe is so hopelessly intertwined that a butterfly flapping its wings can cause the economic collapse of a small city.
And I'm saying that's not chaos, that's complexity.
A simple-minded person would call the fact that 2 combustible gasses can come together to form a liquid that puts out fire chaos. He would be wrong. The reasons are just too complex for him to understand.
Likewise, just because 2 events seem like they shouldn't be connected to us, doesn't mean that there isn't some direct and deterministic reason for them being connected.
Postado por
260787
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Postado por
327953
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Postado por
Squishalot
Chaos theory is an area of inquiry in mathematics, physics, and philosophy studying the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. This sensitivity is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect.
Small differences in initial conditions
(such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems,
rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic
, meaning that their future dynamics are fully determined by their initial conditions,
with no random elements involved
. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
And this is why Wiki is widely reknowned as a horrible source of information. Or alternatively, why chaos theory is a load of garbage, take your pick.
The idea that long-term predictions are impossible is more to do with
quantum theory
, which presupposes that there is an element of randomness intrinsic to everything, and that the world does not follow a deterministic system. This results in the butterfly effect occuring, resulting in chaos and impossible-to-predict futures.
Under a deterministic system, anything can be predicted, given sufficient processing power (as Wiki acknowledges - rounding error is a suitably common condition that can result in diverging outcomes - not rounding calculations would allow you to get an exact result, removing the 'chaos').
You still get a butterfly effect, but it's not 'chaos', it's 'complexity', as Hyper states, at least from a colloqiual point of view. It's worth noting that mathematically, doing the simplest thing, such as stirring a drink, is chaotic, without requiring such random, seemingly unconnected events to occur.
Postado por
327953
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Postado por
Squishalot
Can you trace a large event in your life down to a simple event?
And just to answer the question?
No. A large event in your life is simply (or complex-ly) the consequent results of all of history.
There is no single butterfly in your life, and you are not a special snowflake.
Postado por
Kinesis
While I agree that the series of events itself is very complex, the idea behind it is
chaos theory
. Not chaos, but
chaos theory
.
I had hoped this forum might provide people willing to have an enlightened discussion, without simply entering the thread and attacking me.
I'll be happy to stay here and chat with those of you who, despite offering differing opinions, are willing to back up and support what you say.
As for the rest of you, I suggest you do not waste your time attempting to speak to me.
Postado por
273605
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Postado por
260787
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Postado por
Kinesis
I had hoped this forum might provide people willing to have an enlightened discussion, without simply entering the thread and attacking me.
It always happens. Hyperspacerebel likes to challenge everything he can; it's inevitable. He's just a very argumentative person.
Meh.
Anyway - what are your opinions on the topic, if any? Think it really happens? How often?
As for me, I'm sure that it happens constantly. Sure, maybe not every event is the result of a long chain of events - like someone said before, stirring your drink. At the same time, not everything will start a chain of events.. For example, my using two periods in the last sentence will not change anything - (however, perhaps calling attention to it in this context will lead people into a new train of thought - so maybe this sentence starts a butterfly effect?).
Chaos theory can, I believe, lead to three trains of thought - "I don't Care," "Wow, I'm really important," or "I could ruin the world by ordering a sandwich" (see the cracked article victoryoordeath linked in the second post). It can inspire some people to believe they're truly important, and make others afraid that they could kill millions which each act they do.
For me, I place myself in the "I don't care" category. It's not exactly that I don't care - but that I don't care about the consequences of my smallest actions. It's impossible to think out each and every one, and fretting about it is a waste of time.
Postado por
260787
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Postado por
Kinesis
I believe that it's true.
On a few scientific documentaries, I remember seeing stuff on parallel universes and how every choice we
don't
make in this universe, is made in another parallel one. I'm not sure if I believe that part though, but I have thought about it a little.
@Squishalot:
Quantum Chaos
?
I believe what you're referring to, about parallel universes, is, and please, correct me if i'm wrong, one of the subsets of quantum mechanics. While it isn't directly described within it, it certainly follows. The parallel universe choice theory is just one of many philosophies.
Postado por
Hyperspacerebel
Okay, wtf? I never attacked you. You're the one attacking me by throwing false accusations at my face; you're not the first, but it's starting to *!@# me off. 'Enlightened discussion' is what you wanted? Does that mean only those who agree with the position you're holding are worthy of writing in this thread? And why am I the one being singled out as being argumentative when Squish holds the same position as me? I normally think it would be funny that the second we bring a counter-argument into the thread you revert to pointing fingers and pouting about 'enlightened discussion.' You asked for opinions, I gave you mine and provided reasons for holding them. If you don't want that, don't post here.
I'm sorry for the rant, but this has happened one too many times.
Postado por
282759
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