Serious, random question - 'blackface'

Messaggio di Squishalot

Ok, so as some of the Paladins might know, I'm from Australia, meaning that I've been surrounded by the whole 'blackface' issue that's arisen from the Hey Hey It's Saturday skit a week or two ago.

Just hoping someone could shed a little light for us so-called 'uneducated ones Down Under' - what event in history resulted in the concept being so socially unacceptable, beyond simple impersonation? Is there something similar to the Nazi/Jew events in World War 2, or is it just bad taste to be impersonating a minority group?

Because if the issue is just that it's an impersonation of a minority group, I'm wondering what the big hoo-hah is, since the Indian guy impersonating Michael Jackson painted his face white. It's very obvious that they're impersonating a very specific group (i.e. the Jackson Five, and MJ in his more recent incarnation), so what happened to turn it from satire, into the vilification of an entire community?

Messaggio di MyTie

Blackface was used historically to mock the differences between african americans and caucasian americans. Usually the actors who were displayed in blackface would perform uncomplimentary actions of a racially bigoted nature, whether or not these actions were accurate.

Imagine if someone put on your moms clothes and then pretended to be an idiot, only instead of your mother it is a race of people. That is the history of blackface.

Messaggio di Squishalot

Thanks for that. So the next question is, if someone does so without performing such racially bigoted actions, is that still blackface and deserving to be condemned?

Messaggio di MyTie

Thanks for that. So the next question is, if someone does so without performing such racially bigoted actions, is that still blackface and deserving to be condemned?

Considering it's history, yes.

Imagine if the Ku Klux Klan fell apart, and then reformed as a chess club. Would you join? Would you wear around a T-Shirt that says 'Proud Member of the Ku Klux Klan'. What if the US adopted the Nazi flag, but none of it's beliefs? Would that be ok?

Blackface may not be used in the same context as it was, but there are easier ways to find humor in less 'sore spots'. I'm not saying a person shouldn't perform in blackface. I'm just saying that anyone who does should realise they are performing in a historically offensive manner.

Messaggio di Squishalot

Messaggio di MyTie

Blackface may not be used in the same context as it was, but there are easier ways to find humor in less 'sore spots'. I'm not saying a person shouldn't perform in blackface. I'm just saying that anyone who does should realise they are performing in a historically offensive manner.

Ok, that's if you're generally imitating the black population, fair enough.

But is that to say that a white guy isn't allowed to imitate Barack Obama by darkening his face without being seen to be taking cheap shots at black people generally? It just seems strange that people can take things so easily out of context, as if Jews were to protest against The Sound Of Music performances on the grounds that the actors wear Nazi uniforms.

There is a difference between darkening your face and 'blackface'. Hair, lips, etc. It's not as if someone dressed up as a black person, but more that they dressed up to fit negative stereotypes about a black person. There are some things that could be argued about the opposite, people who mock white people. You could point out how it is acceptible to portray white people as stuck up nerds who can't dance, and even putting on crazy out of fashion clothes and suspenders and such. However, one wrong doesn't make the other wrong ok.

Your comparison to nazis doesn't exactly fit either.

Let me make another example. Let's say a white greecian person were to put tape and makeup to make thier eyes ridiculously slanted, and make thier hair super strait, and thier front teeth stick out dopily, then they were to act like idiots. Would that be offensive to orientals?

Blackface is used to mock, not imitate, a race. It is not unexpected for that race to find it offensive.

Messaggio di vaad

From what I understand from hearing about the show, the act didnt actually dress like black and white minstrels, they just did a tribute act to the Jackson 5 with "darkening makeup".

The problem with that is the question "Why add the makeup?" They could have done the songs without it, and they would have sounded the same. Adding makeup is essentially saying that the Jacksons' skin color was part of the act. That's kind of offensive, their skin color should be unimportant.

Someone playing Barry Manilow wouldn't paste on a fake nose, and someone doing a tribute to an asian star (why can't I think of an asian musician? :S) wouldn't tape their eyes up.

Messaggio di chase123

Fred Armisen(white guy) dresses up as President Obama(half black/half white guy) every week on Saturday Night Live. He darkens his skin a little for the role but ive yet to see any uprising because of it.

I dont personally have anything against it, as long as he doesnt start jumping around and dancing like a jiggaboo.

Messaggio di Squishalot

But here, again, you're going on the presumption that the actors are, after doing themselves up, acting like idiots.

There was an American comedian who became relatively reknown in university circles here due to a skit on Chinese and their haggling (or lack thereof) - I can't remember his name right at this moment, "I give you fifty cent discount!" - he's a (non native) Indian American. Maybe it's because culturally, Australians don't give a damn about PC in satire, or because I'm Chinese by heritage and can see the underlying truth in the skit, but it just doesn't ring any "OMFG I'LL BEAT THE #$!& OUT OF YOU!" bells.

I dunno, to me, it seems like it's PC gone mad. I don't see anything wrong with the weirdos who convert themselves into Elvis and act like idiots, nor do I care about the guys who dress up in Oriental garb and do fake martial arts. If an act really is distasteful, all they're doing is making themselves look like idiots, not the people they're making themselves out to be.

Messaggio di Squishalot

Adding makeup is essentially saying that the Jacksons' skin color was part of the act. That's kind of offensive, their skin color should be unimportant.

In the 80s, when the skit was first done, it would be offensive, fair enough.

In the 00s, when the MJ frontliner pasted his skin white, it's a lot more clear that as a tribute act, it was to highlight the difference between where he came from (not necessarily a bad thing), and what he became (also not necessarily a bad thing).

Edit: And Elvis impersonators all have the big belly. If an actor wants to make the resemblence, they'll go the whole way.

Messaggio di Random0214

Puttin' on the Ritz has an example of the blackface used in the '80s.

Messaggio di MyTie

Messaggio di Squishalot

Should it therefore be ok to make fun of black people? IMO, no. It should be not ok to make fun of any race.

I didn't say it should be ok to make fun of black people, or of any race. However, I believe that representations that aren't intended to make fun of people should be taken in the spirit that it was offered, rather than assuming anything and everything is a personal racist attack.

Messaggio di Hyperspacerebel

Hai, Squish, don't see you out here much.

The whole concept behind making fun is the fact that you're exaggerating something that's different. You make fun of people with glasses, people who have a hundred pets, people who wear mismatching clothes, etc. So I would say the very fact that someone who condemns just racist jokes is in fact being more discriminatory than someone who makes fun of everyone.

Messaggio di Squishalot

Nope, don't come out this way very often. But you guys are the only US forum'ers I come in contact with, and it didn't really belong in any of the other forums.

To be honest, I don't actually have a burning issue with racist jokes - I don't think they're funny, so I don't laugh, but I'm not going to beat someone up over it. If someone wants to make an ass of themselves, then I'm not going to stop them. Just like I won't stop other people from donning Chinese outfits and trying to do martial arts.

It's the double standards and hypocrisy that I don't get, which is what you're hitting on. Our biggest retail bank's ad campaign is actually lampooning the US at the moment (produced by a US ad agency), but the only people crying foul are the Australian ad agencies who lost the deal.

In Australia, there was a show on our national broadcaster called The Gruen Transfer. In it, each week, there's a segment called 'The Pitch', where ad agencies were asked to create an ad that would try and sell an 'unsellable' message, which has included things in the past such as whaling (a big no no in Aus), child labour, support of climate change, and invasions of New Zealand (that one's actually pretty easy to sell to Aussies).

Anyway, there was one controversial episode, where the agency was asked to make an ad to stop discrimination against fat people. I believe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkcUq1LBdaA is the offending video on YouTube, which was deemed to be discriminatory against Jews, gays and black people. But it has a strong message at the end of the day, pretty much in line with what you're saying.

Edit: ... or not, looks like it fell foul of YouTube's censor too. I'll look around and find it.

Edit 2: Link updated, this video should work.

Messaggio di 73830

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Messaggio di 165617

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Messaggio di Squishalot

You don't care about being PC because you are busy packing up your Aborigine's children and trying to make them white. Stolen Generation anyone?

Yeah, and you guys are busy shooting native Indians and selling the rest off as slaves. Sure, whatever you reckon.

In the SNL skits with Obama in them, Obama is not made fun of for being solely black, but for his policies or how OTHERS view him for HAPPENING to be black.

And here, you prove my point entirely. The Hey Hey skit wasn't making fun of MJ because he's black, or white, or anything. The 2009 version, complete with white-faced Michael Jackson, was a send up of a group of musicians, not of black people. So what makes the doctors performing the skit any worse than Sarah Silverman? Or any Elvis impersonators?

Not saying that making fun of a racial group is acceptable, just amused at the hypocrisy.

Messaggio di 165617

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Messaggio di Hyperspacerebel

Why did you ask this question if you already closed off all other points of view? You wanted to know why this is wrong and instead you saying that this subject is "hypocrisy". If you wanted to know why, thats fine. If you wanted to make it a debate, say that.

When someone asks something it's because they want to know why. If the the explaination that was given to them doesn't hold up, then they'll question further. They'll keep going until it makes sense. It's called human reasoning...don't blame others for being rational creatures.

Serious, random question - 'blackface'

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