Why Americans can't speak (or write in) English properly.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

Why what? I have 3 declarative phrases in that post. Which one don't you understand the reasons for?

Articulate to me why being at the "top of the food chain" is "fair reason to be singled out".

If America (or whatever the "best" is...in this case, that country which best embodies a English-speaking first-world nation, both conceptually and in common and social practice) doesn't have an excuse, no one does.

Publication par MyTie

Why what? I have 3 declarative phrases in that post. Which one don't you understand the reasons for?

Articulate to me why being at the "top of the food chain" is "fair reason to be singled out".

If America (or whatever the "best" is...in this case, that country which best embodies a English-speaking first-world nation) doesn't have an excuse, no one does.

Perhaps, instead, it should be emulated. If it is #1 it must be doing something right, not everything wrong.

I guess our opinions just differ.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

Perhaps, instead, it should be emulated. If it is #1 it must be doing something right, not everything wrong.
Why?

If we were talking about socialist states, the former USSR would be the "best." That doesn't mean they should be emulated.

Publication par 327953

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Publication par 148723

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Publication par MyTie

If we were talking about socialist states, the former USSR would be the "best." That doesn't mean they should be emulated.

Certain aspects of the USSR should be hailed and emulated! Many should not.

You will rarely catch me jumping on board the hate wagon, no matter what the issue is (with rare exception). I'm just tired of constant America bashing.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

if u wanted my opnion, our american language is perfectly fine.

If I really wanted your opnion, you should probably get me committed.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

Publication par HiVolt

if u wanted my opnion, our american language is perfectly fine.

Pudge is now, officially, my favorite troll on the board.

Publication par Squishalot

Articulate to me why being at the "top of the food chain" is "fair reason to be singled out".

I wouldn't call it demonising (or demonizing, even). Do we demonise McD's for encouraging obesity? Or do we simply use them as an example of all the other unhealthy fast food options, because they are prominent?

I'm all for using examples of stereotypes, because it helps people frame a response if they can understand and visualise the context. To call it demonising is being just as politically correct as the "White Americans are immigrants" brigade that you hate so much.

For what it's worth, being prominent doesn't mean being best at anything, other than drawing attention to oneself.

Publication par MyTie

If we were talking about socialist states, the former USSR would be the "best." That doesn't mean they should be emulated.

Certain aspects of the USSR should be hailed and emulated! Many should not.
That's arbitrary.

No need to pick at everything I say.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

No need to pick at everything I say.

No need for you to give me anything to pick apart.

Publication par MyTie

No need to pick at everything I say.

No need for you to give me anything to pick apart.

Listen, I'm going to talk. It's your decision to pick apart everything I say. I'm telling you there is no need to do that. If you want to, go ahead, but you're just being annoying.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

Listen, I'm going to talk. It's your decision to pick apart everything I say. I'm telling you there is no need to do that. If you want to, go ahead, but you're just being annoying.

And I'm telling you there's no need to talk.

See? We're saying the same thing.

Publication par MyTie

And I'm telling you there's no need to talk.Must.... not.... feed....

Publication par Squishalot

And I'm telling you there's no need to talk.Must.... not.... feed....

Or, you know, you could keep avoiding addressing my point.

Publication par MyTie

Or, you know, you could keep avoiding addressing my point.

For what it's worth, being prominent doesn't mean being best at anything, other than drawing attention to oneself.I agree. This still isn't a good reason to single out the US whenever a point needs to be made.

I'm patriotic. I love my country. It's fashionable to hate the thing I love, so of course I will deride fashion. I have yet to hear a reason behind constant singleing out of the US, that would make me feel that such action is justified.

Publication par Squishalot

I have yet to hear a reason behind constant singleing out of the US, that would make me feel that such action is justified.

Again:

I wouldn't call it demonising (or demonizing, even). Do we demonise McD's for encouraging obesity? Or do we simply use them as an example of all the other unhealthy fast food options, because they are prominent?

I'm all for using examples of stereotypes, because it helps people frame a response if they can understand and visualise the context. To call it demonising is being just as politically correct as the "White Americans are immigrants" brigade that you hate so much.

The US is the biggest exponent of <insert behaviour here>, simply because it has the highest population of any of the English-speaking nations.

Why is Generation Y 'demonised' for being illiterate, when there are so many Gen X and Boomers who are equally so? Why are the Chinese 'demonised' for being strict parents, even though every other Asian nation is similar? Why is McDonalds 'demonised' for causing obesity, when an average meal of pizza has more calories than an average value meal? Why are Catholics 'demonised' for believing in God, when there are a billion other non-Catholic Christians out there? Why are Nigerians 'demonised' for scamming when plenty of scams come out of developed nations? Why are emails selling Viagra products 'demonised' for spamming, when there are dozens of spam MBA degrees, weight loss pills and 'anti-virus' software?

Because in each case, they're the single most prominent group of the population subset. Likewise with the USA. It's simply a tool to help visualise the context of the complaint.

Publication par pelf

With offices right next to the Ministry of Silly Walks?

Quite :).

The problem arises when people misunderstand the nuances of such words, and this lack of clarity is what pelf is aiming at, I believe.

I suppose there are several things I'm aiming at. I'm not quite nearly as focused in my assertions as you fellas are and I thank you for not harping on me for that. If there is a way to relate what I'm pointing the finger at to clarity, I suppose I take issue with unclarity that is born out of uncaring.

It goes back to when I mentioned people not caring about language, having nobody really convincingly assert the contrary and then growing up and finding out that nobody they interact with in their daily lives cares either.

What I understand pelf's query to be (fundamentally) is whether the trade-off for increased accuracy is worth the cost to clarity (i.e. speed).

Hmm.

What do you perceive the difference between a street and a road is? Or a street and a crescent? If a lane and a laneway are two separate but similar things, why is a park and a parkway significantly different from each other? For people who aren't familiar with the nuances and/or the use of them, it causes confusion and inhibits understanding.

Is it the job of the language to foster clarity through simplicity or is that just an issue with the speaker not appropriately identifying his audience? If I was speakign to someone who demonstrably had a less firm grip on the language (a child or an English as an n-th language speaker, for example), I could just say "road" and "run" instead of any of the synonyms with subtle variations of meaning. I think for every word that has a family of variations, there's usually one word that is the base form and is likely to have a direct translation between languages.

I don't think clarity rests on speed. Your listener's attention span and your available time are what determine your speed. You should always have clarity, whether you take 10 seconds or 30 minutes to describe something.

Agreed that the two aren't the same thing.

Title of the thread is:

Why Americans can't speak (or write in) English properly.

I live here, with you. I singled us out because I see it every day. I see it in my professional IT job in communications between programmers, from managers, from multi-hundred-thousand-dollar salaried professionals. I see it at home on the internet on forums of all kinds and I see it instant communication in multiple mediums. I hear it at fast food restaurants and I see it on signage. I'm singling us out because I'm in it.

I certainly couldn't have made a thread about how Germans are abusing their language. I haven't a clue.

if u wanted my opnion, our american language is perfectly fine.

If I really wanted your opnion, you should probably get me committed.

I lolled IRL.

No need to pick at everything I say.

I apologize, but I have to address this specifically. Dialogue, especially of the Socratic kind, a style which HSR and Squish have demonstrated an affinity for by example, actually is about picking apart everything each person says. A Socratic Dialogue specifically is about making sure that both parties are, down to the minutiae, expressing themselves clearly. At least that, among other things. In order to debate anything deeply and fully, it is necessary to be sure that each party is able to understand exactly what is being said. Misinterpretations can waste time and produce false conclusions and unnecessary counterpoints.

Check out the Euthyphro, if you haven't. It was my first introduction to the genre. I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html

Sorry all of this is in one post. I wasn't around to intersperse my responses.

Publication par Hyperspacerebel

Check out the Euthyphro, if you haven't. It was my first introduction to the genre. I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html

The good old question of intrinsic morality: is it good to do because God said so, or did God say so because it is good? I remember spending long hours on that question with one of my roommates in college.

Why Americans can't speak (or write in) English properly.

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