General Lore Discussions

Post by Adamsm

Eh, I could see the aftermath of the Death of Sylvanas going one of three ways.

1) Some 'champion' of the Horde we've been working with all through Battle, who manages to impress the other Horde leaders and races, is instrumental in the final run up to Sylvanas, and isn't willing to jump down the throat of the Alliance at the drop of the hat and wants to work things out with them.

Or

2) Thrall comes back. That's it; he's done with the Earthen Ring and he just becomes leader again 'because'.

3) The idea of the Warchief is abolished or changed, with that becoming the term for their version of the Supreme Commander, and the Horde 'copies' the Alliance and we start seeing the Horde races governing themselves without one over all voice to order them all around. Mind if they do that, they'll need to finally tell us who the next Darkspear leader is and like I said, a new Forsaken leader would need to be picked as well...and maybe the Tallest will assassinate Gallywix and take over, giving us another female leader in the Horde.

I'm honestly more interested to see who would take over the Forsaken following the Queens death...mind, they'll probably go the cheapest simple way and make it Nathanos, since that would be the 'justification' for his makeovers in the last few expansions; gotta make him look impressive to be impressive :P

Post by Rankkor

Eh, I could see the aftermath of the Death of Sylvanas going one of three ways.

Assuming she dies. I'm still hoping she doesn't. Small hope, but hey, a man can dream.

1) Some 'champion' of the Horde we've been working with all through Battle, who manages to impress the other Horde leaders and races, is instrumental in the final run up to Sylvanas, and isn't willing to jump down the throat of the Alliance at the drop of the hat and wants to work things out with them.

This would be some MAJOR ass pull. This could work maybe, for racial leader (if nothing else because so many horde leaders have died, we HAVE to put someone new in place. All the old leaders are six feet under), but not for the leader of the entire frikking horde.

2) Thrall comes back. That's it; he's done with the Earthen Ring and he just becomes leader again 'because'.

I'd be okay with this IF and only IF, Thrall sheds his Go'el hobo phase. Ditch the stupid robes. Ditch the stupid hipster necklace. Grow back that glorious mullet. Become once again the badass warrior-shaman he was in Lord of the Clans. The one depicted here. THIS is a Thrall I'd follow to the very gates of hell. Only then I can get behind this idea.

If we just get the henpecked mopey hobo he turned into, I'm just gonna roll my eyes and groan.

3) The idea of the Warchief is abolished or changed, with that becoming the term for their version of the Supreme Commander

I don't see this working because the alliance, for all intents and purposes has the position of High King. While each alliance race is self-governed, they still defer to the king of stormwind. I'm getting to notice this pretty often in Before the Storm (And before it, during Legion) that even other leaders, treat the king of stormwind, (be it varian, or anduin) as someone in a position above them.

The horde was the one with this position first. It would feel like a big identity loss if suddenly we lose this, but the alliance is allowed to keep it.

Mind if they do that, they'll need to finally tell us who the next Darkspear leader is and like I said, a new Forsaken leader would need to be picked as well...and maybe the Tallest will assassinate Gallywix and take over, giving us another female leader in the Horde.

Don't forget the orcs.

With Saurfang unofficially defecting at the start of BfA, the orcs are AGAIN completely leaderless, making the position of Orc Chieftain as useless as that of warchief. In 4 years they've gone from Thrall, to Garrosh, to Saurfang, to maybe Eitrigg I guess, its not confirmed.

I'm honestly more interested to see who would take over the Forsaken following the Queens death...mind, they'll probably go the cheapest simple way and make it Nathanos, since that would be the 'justification' for his makeovers in the last few expansions; gotta make him look impressive to be impressive :P

If I had to put money on someone, I'd put it on Lilian Voss. She's getting groomed big time in BfA, and has long since ditched her neutrality and fully embraced the forsaken cause.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

Post by Rankkor

This would be some MAJOR ass pull. This could work maybe, for racial leader (if nothing else because so many horde leaders have died, we HAVE to put someone new in place. All the old leaders are six feet under), but not for the leader of the entire frikking horde./shrug I know, but it's one of the few things that would be new and not just rehashes of things they've done before. It's not like the game couldn't use new actual characters and not NPC's put into the game just to die stupidly.

Yeah, but not for leader of the horde. That's not something that should be handed to just some random schmuck. There's still Lorthemar and Baine left as quasi-OG leaders (Lor'themar is, right after Sylvanas, the oldest faction leader at the moment). I'd rather have either of them than a random nobody introduced in BfA.

If we just get the henpecked mopey hobo he turned into, I'm just gonna roll my eyes and groan.Well, would give us the woman behind the Orc that way, and we'd get another Expac with the stupidly written Aggra....

And this would be good how exactly? O_o

because you know, Anduin has no heir so if he kicks the bucket, we get chaos in the human nations. He should not be on the frontlines...

This is actually a plotline in the book. Greymane keeps bugging Anduin to go ahead and get hitched already, even suggesting his own daughter as a candidate, but Anduin, ever the naive romantic, "wants to marry for love". How adorable (Excuse me while I gag).

Point is, his lack of heirs, and the absolute chaos of a succession crisis his death would bring with the stormwind house of nobles, is something that's actually addressed in the book (With Anduin lamenting that Aerin died, because apparently he had quite the boy crush on her)

It's going to make even less sense when we unite the factions of Kul Tiras under one flag and they suddenly start deferring to Anduin as well....never mind that this group has been insular for years /sigh Such sloppy freaking writing.

Pfft, its no different on the horde dude. The Zandalari have been the largest and mightiest empire in the history of azeroth, dwarfing all kingdoms and empires in the history of forever, and yet they're about to bend the knee to the horde.

Suramar has been highly isolationist and independent for thousands of years, yet they too defer to the horde and the warchief.

making the position of Orc Chieftain as useless as that of warchief. Watch they grab someone from the Draenor Mag'har.....

The mag'har leader is

A female version of Thrall, his equivalent on the alternate timeline of Draenor, so I dunno man, that'd be kinda..........weird

If I had to put money on someone, I'd put it on Lilian Voss. She's getting groomed big time in BfA, and has long since ditched her neutrality and fully embraced the forsaken cause.
Ugh, please no, not her, anyone but her; rez up a member of RAS and let them lead it, but anyone but the Voss.....

Hey, she's not my first choice either, I'm only relaying what I'm seeing :P shoot the message, not the messenger.

Speaking of Heirs: Moira's son has grown. No longer a baby, he's 8 years old now. And unlike his current model in wow, he has the gray skin of a dark iron, but the green eyes of his mother, as opposed to the typical red eyes of other dark iron dwarves. I'm guessing two, maybe three expansions from now, and the council of three hammers will have to be dissolved, and a new king be crowned in Ironforge.

That'll be...........something interesting to witness I'm sure.

There's also an official age for Anduin. He's 18.

I'd say he's no longer protected by the plot armor of being a child, but alas, that stupid legion prequel comic all but ensured he's never going to die now, thus eliminating any suspense from any dangerous situation he's ever put from now on. Great job blizz >_> Great Job.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

Yeah, but not for leader of the horde. That's not something that should be handed to just some random schmuck. There's still Lorthemar and Baine left as quasi-OG leaders (Lor'themar is, right after Sylvanas, the oldest faction leader at the moment). I'd rather have either of them than a random nobody introduced in BfA.Oh I know, and I know it's not going to happen, not the least of which is the fact that Blizzard won't do anything new with the game at this point, they'll just keep reusing the elements that worked in the past in a hope of getting mass subs back.

And this would be good how exactly? O_oNever said it would be good, just what would happen with Go'el taking over.

This is actually a plotline in the book. Greymane keeps bugging Anduin to go ahead and get hitched already, even suggesting his own daughter as a candidate, but Anduin, ever the naive romantic, "wants to marry for love". How adorable (Excuse me while I gag).Honestly...it's not completely naive; his father and grandfather married for love after all and not due to a political marriage, so the idea that he wants to pick his own queen isn't unseen in the Stormwind succession line....when he does find his match, it's going to be handled horribly in game or horribly in books if Golden is in charge of it, since she's so &*!@ing horrible at writing romance. It makes sense that Genn would want a firmer connection to Stormwind, but then again, and heres yet another missed chance at story; could have had Anduin find his love in Kul Tiras, either through one of the noble families there or some new character, and it would be a way to connect Kul Tiras to Stormwind that doesn't involve Jaina.

Point is, his lack of heirs, and the absolute chaos of a succession crisis his death would bring with the stormwind house of nobles, is something that's actually addressed in the book (With Anduin lamenting that Aerin died, because apparently he had quite the boy crush on her)/head desk repeatedly Yes, I remember that character...she was good and interesting, so of course they drop a mountain on her; can't have that now can we >_< And if there is a succession crisis, it'll be handled in the books rather then in game where it should be of course.

Pfft, its no different on the horde dude. The Zandalari have been the largest and mightiest empire in the history of azeroth, dwarfing all kingdoms and empires in the history of forever, and yet they're about to bend the knee to the horde.

Suramar has been highly isolationist and independent for thousands of years, yet they too defer to the horde and the warchief.Yeah I know; bad story telling at it's finest.

The mag'har leader isEh, shouldn't be surprised that they did that....most of the other Draenor things were just dumb swaps of people.

Speaking of Heirs: Moira's son has grown. No longer a baby, he's 8 years old now. And unlike his current model in wow, he has the gray skin of a dark iron, but the green eyes of his mother, as opposed to the typical red eyes of other dark iron dwarves. I'm guessing two, maybe three expansions from now, and the council of three hammers will have to be dissolved, and a new king be crowned in Ironforge.

That'll be...........something interesting to witness I'm sure.Don't you just love it when years pass in game without Blizzard actually telling us? I swear, it's like they are intentionally keeping the time line as vague as possible so that we can't actually look at it and question things. Since with that reveal, it's apparently been 6 years since Cata, as the baby was all of 2 in the Shattering novel, implied to be born shortly after the start of BC. Also, more time line shenanigans or else Anduin has been sealed in a time warp; he was 14 when Varian came back, which was Wrath; going off the original idea that it was a year per expansion, he should be 20 at this point. Meh, whatever; Anduin will live till it's time for a senseless sacrifice that 'needs' to happen because it adds fake pathos and drama to the setting, causing problems and issues and bringing the War back to the forefront, no matter how many times that dead horse has been flogged.

Post by Rankkor

Since with that reveal, it's apparently been 6 years since Cata

Nope. On the chapter I've just read, a gnome is admiring the two moons, and a night elf explains that once every 430 years, the two moons align and magical stuff happens. The gnome asks when was the last lunar alignment, and the elf says it was 5 years ago (They aligned when the new aspect of magic was chosen during Cataclysm).

So its been 5 years since cata, meaning Anduin would be 13 at that time, and 12 when varian came back during Wrath.

Are you sure he was explicitly referred to as 14? Where was that mentioned?

heres yet another missed chance at story; could have had Anduin find his love in Kul Tiras, either through one of the noble families there or some new character, and it would be a way to connect Kul Tiras to Stormwind that doesn't involve Jaina.

And why is that a missed chance? it can still happen. BfA is not over yet.

Hell, BfA hasn't even started yet!! =P

Who's to say Anduin isn't going to meet a special little lady on those isles during the expansion? Assuming he doesn't fall for Wrathion's irresistible charm.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

Fairly certain the comics said it, and the first 12 issues to where Onyxia was killed and Varian put back as the king, are canon. There's also the mention in War Crimes that Anduin was 15...which mucks up the timeline even further if that's true, since it's also mentioned in Cata he's also 15. Like I said, they don't care too much about the actual passage of time any longer.

And why is that a missed chance? it can still happen. BfA is not over yet.

Hell, BfA hasn't even started yet! =P

Who's to say Anduin isn't going to meet a special little lady on those isles during the expansion? Assuming he doesn't fall for Wrathion's irresistible charm.My lack of respect and belief that Blizzard could do something like that when they'd rather just rehash things? I don't think we'll see too much change between Beta and Live for the early quests, and that's where a 'smart' company would start the story so that it's not like the stupid Aggra romance >_< But who knows; I still doubt it, but if it does happen, then I guess like the Zombie Onyxia, I'll say I predicted it :P

Post by Rankkor

Fairly certain the comics said it

Yeah, well the comics canonical status is flexible at best. Me'dan has been all but declared non-canon by now. Khadgar's appearance has been retconned entirely. So what happened there is best taken in broadstrokes at most.

My lack of respect and belief that Blizzard could do something like that when they'd rather just rehash things?

I dunno man, Legion did a lot to restore my faith in blizzard's storytelling chops. I had a BLAST playing through this expansion. Sure some of the class campaigns were pretty boring (Hunters specially) but I enjoyed most of them, and the overall campaign was awesome. They even managed to subvert my expectations regarding the alledged whitewashing of Illidan, and his "redemption" was handled WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than the way Kerrigan was redeemed in Starcraft.

There's hope for them yet.

Post by Adamsm

Post by 355559

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Rankkor

and the first 12 issues to where Onyxia was killed and Varian put back as the king, are canon.Yes after issue 12 they are non-canon...but the first 12 are still canon and that's where I think it was mentioned.

I dunno man, Legion did a lot to restore my faith in blizzard's storytelling chops. I had a BLAST playing through this expansion. Sure some of the class campaigns were pretty boring (Hunters specially) but I enjoyed most of them, and the overall campaign was awesome. They even managed to subvert my expectations regarding the alledged whitewashing of Illidan, and his "redemption" was handled WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than the way Kerrigan was redeemed in Starcraft.

There's hope for them yet.Eh agree to disagree there; I did the quests lines for the main 5 zones and then lost interest completely when the Illidan stuff started, and I haven't gone back to finish the Broken Shore or Argus, and Battle isn't drawing me in for what I've done on Beta; it's the same old same old that we've seen already, and most of the vibe is Cata/Mists to me. If that's the direction they are going storyline wise, I'll probably run one toon for each faction then just take a break again, or I'll wait till I get bored of 14 and start playing WoW again. But to give you an idea, I still haven't purchased Battle and my purchases in August are going to be focused more on PS4 things that anything to do with Blizzard.

There's always Guild Wars.

ew. Guild Wars.

You know, I tried to get into that game. I really REALLY tried. I never was able to play the first one, but I got into the sequel with an open mind.

I'll give it this much, its BACKSTORY was interesting enough, and so was its lore. But the actual in-game story (What little of it there was, the bulk of the leveling is done not via quests, but via those storyless dynamic events) was a frigging snoozefest.

I got as far as Lion's Arch before I just gave up.

If there's an MMO out there that can serve as a second banana to wow, is either SWTOR (crappy MMO, great story), or FF14 (Awesome MMO, Awesome story, but hardly anyone I know plays it U_U, plus as a venezuelan, I can't afford playing it, much as I loved it when I was able to play it for a couple of brief blissful months)

Pretty much every other MMO I've tried has had a horrible, or mediocre story. From Wildstar, to Neverwinter Online, to Elder Scrolls Online, to Guild Wars 2, to Tera Online, to Rift Online, to frigging Age of Conan.

All boring boring BORING.

Edit: And Adamsm, maybe Anduin is going to meet his other half in Kul Tiras after all.

The overall storyline for the alliance ends with him meeting Bolvar's daughter and forming up a friendship with her. She's about his age, so..............

Edit 2: Alright, more info out of the book:

We got some backstory on Calia. How she escaped lordaeron, where she's been all her life, etc. Its quite the sad tale :'(

Apparently, Therenas had arranged for her to marry some snobby noble or some such, but she was in love with a lowly footman. And since daddy was mostly interested in the marriage of Arthas who was the actual heir to the crown, he never paid any attention to this daughter and what she did. She and her nameless footman married in secret, and consummated their relation discreetly. Eventually she got pregnant and when she couldn't hide that anymore, she confided in her mother about it. She was furious, but reluctantly accepted that her daughter was truly in love after all, and helped her. They left the capital city under some pretext invented by the queen, Calia gave birth to a daughter, and then it was decided that her husband would take the baby, and raise her away from Lordaeron for a time.

Eventually, after Arthas had married and produced an heir, they'd discuss this topic with Therenas, elevate the footman to be a minor noble, and give the girl a proper name and recognition. And then the scourge happened. Calia, barely managed to flee the capital city, hiding in ditches and such to avoid the forces of the scourge and the cult of the damned, and eventually made her way to where her husband was living with their daughter........... in Southshore =/

Nobody recognized her, everyone assumed she was dead, and with her kingdom in ruins, she decided to abandon any claims to the crown and just live with her hubby and child happily ever after. And then Southshore was turned into Azeroth's version of Chernobyl. She survived, but got separated from her husband and daughter. She doesn't know if they survived, if they died, or if they became undead, hence why now that Anduin is organizing this gathering of forsaken and human families who became separated by war, she wants to be there, and see if she can find them.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

There's always Guild Wars.

Nah, there's always FF14 which blows WoW out of the water story wise. And honestly, class wise too in my eyes, since one character can be all of the classes without needing multiple alts.

Edit: And Adamsm, maybe Anduin is going to meet his other half in Kul Tiras after all.

The overall storyline for the alliance ends with him meeting Bolvar's daughter and forming up a friendship with her. She's about his age, so..............Ten bucks she'll go evil and join Daddy as a new Scourge Princess; that's what you would expect from Blizzard's writing.

We got some backstory on Calia. How she escaped lordaeron, where she's been all her life, etc. Its quite the sad tale :'(Aw poor Princess...I liked the RPG storyline better.

Post by morginar

wasn't said noble deathwing?

Post by Rankkor

wasn't said noble deathwing?

I doubt it, because his deception fell through pretty quickly when he was ousted. And she spoke about how she was still engaged to that noble even weeks before the scourge tragedy happened.

Deathwing had long since been defeated by then.

Ten bucks she'll go evil and join Daddy as a new Scourge Princess

That's what we, ALL OF US, said about Moira. And yet look. Never say never.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

No, once they drove Deathwing off, his spell as the Prestor broke and Terenas had no idea what he was thinking in regards to it. It was probably just another random noble that they don't feel the need to name because 'backstory' so not important.

Eh, there was that Dark Iron traitor quest line where Moira repudiated the one responsible for it, but we never did find out exactly who had set it up in the first place. Could see a new civil war once the unnamed heir is firmly on the Throne. Speaking of a Plot left hanging...are we ever going to find out what Magni thinks about the whole Council of Three Hammers? Cause after he 'woke up', he did just scamper off to do the bidding of Azeroth.

Post by Rankkor

Ok, this is one bit of the book I just had to share. This scene, is brilliant.

How in heavens name can someone read this and then call it poor writing? THIS is how I wish the long-awaited reunion between the Windrunner sisters had gone.

Behold the confrontation between Greymane and his old friend, Archbishop Alonsus Faol.

Archbishop Alonsus Faol stood on the blue steps leading up to the altar.

He was clad in a miter and robe that bespoke his stature in life. Anduin had looked diligently for the garments. It was, he had realized, easier for humans to recognize the outer trappings of an archbishop than what remained of the man himself.

Both Greymane and Turalyon seemed stunned. Anduin waited but did not speak. This had to unfold between Faol and his oldest, dearest friends without interference from outsiders. Anduin said a silent prayer that everyone in this room would look with eyes of remembered friendship and see truly.

“I’m quite aware that I don’t look as you remember me,” Faol continued. “But I think you recognize my voice. And my face is mostly intact, though it lacks that bushy white beard I was so fond of.”

Turalyon went as still as if he were the statue that stood at the entrance to Stormwind. The only thing that proved he was not was the rapid fall and rise of his chest. The expression on his face was one of utter loathing, but he did not speak or move.

If Turalyon’s reaction was cold, Genn’s was pure fire. He whirled on Anduin, his face contorted in fury. Not for the first time, the young king was aware of the sheer power of the man even when he wasn’t in his worgen form. He needed no claws and teeth, not even a sword, to kill. And right now, he looked as though he was about to rip Anduin apart with his bare hands.

“You’ve gone too far, Anduin Wrynn,” Greymane snarled. “How dare you bring this thing into the Cathedral of Light! You’re chasing this distorted ideal of what peace really is. And now you’ve brought that here.”

His voice shook. “Alonsus Faol was my friend. He was Turalyon’s friend. We’d accepted that he was gone. He was buried at Faol’s Rest. Why are you doing this to us?”

Anduin didn’t flinch. He had been expecting this reaction. When he got no response, Greymane turned on the source of his loathing.

“Have you got the boy under some sort of spell, wretch?” he bellowed. “I know that there are priests who can do that sort of thing. Let Anduin go, get out of here, and I will not rip that putrid corpse of yours to shreds.

“You chose this…this shambling existence. You chose to be this creature of nightmares. And you have to know what’s happened to me. To my people. What yours did to me and how much I loathe what you’ve become. If you had any decency, any respect for those you once called friends, you’d have hurled yourself into the fire during your first Hallow’s End and spared us all this!”

Anduin closed his eyes in pain at the vitriol Greymane was hurling at a man he’d loved in life. He had known this would be difficult, but he had not expected Genn to be so malicious in his anger.

Faol, though, seemed completely unsurprised by the reaction and looked at Genn sadly. “You stand there, a few strides away from an old friend, and you attack me with words chosen for their power to wound,” Faol said. “And I know why you do so.”

“I do so because you are a monstrosity! Because your people are an abomination and should never have been created!”
Faol shook his head. His voice remained calm, tinged with a hint of sorrow. “No, my old friend. You do this because you are afraid.”

Anduin blinked, shocked. Genn Greymane was many things, but he was no coward. Anduin did not want to interfere, but if it looked like Faol was in danger, he would do so. Although Faol was probably a more powerful priest, even in his present state, than Anduin could ever be.

Greymane stood absolutely still. “I’ve killed for lesser insults than that.” The words were pitched low, a growl.

“I know that,” Faol continued. “And yet I say again: you are afraid. Oh, not of me personally.” He put a withered hand on his bony chest. “I’m certain you believe you can take me in one of your heartbeats. You may be right at that, but I’d just as soon not find out.”

He shook his head sadly. “No, Genn Greymane. You’re afraid because you believe that if you acknowledge here, now, with me, that Forsaken aren’t irredeemable monsters—if you show any hint of understanding, or kindness, or compassion, or friendship—then that will mean your son died for nothing.”

A human cry of rage and pain turned into a wolf’s howl as the Gilnean king arched his back. His form shifted, wreathed in mystical smoke as gray as the wolf’s pelt. Taller, much more massive, he crouched on his lupine haunches and prepared to spring at Faol. Turalyon seized the worgen by the arm, shaking his head.

“No bloodshed in this place,” he said.

“The creature doesn’t even have blood,” Genn snarled, his voice deep and ragged. “He’s tied together like a stick puppet with ichor and magic!”

“I know something about loss,” the archbishop continued. Anduin marveled at Faol’s calmness. “And I know something about you, too. You’ve held fast to that pain. It’s served you well. It’s enabled you to fight with unbridled ferocity. But like any edged weapon, it can cut both ways. And right now, it’s coming between you and an understanding that could change your world.”

“I can’t change my world!” Genn cried in a broken voice. The words were still blazing with fury, but shot through them was a deep thread of pain that made Anduin’s heart ache. “I want my son back, but that banshee murdered him! She and her kind—your kind—nearly destroyed my people!”

“Yet here you are,” Faol continued almost placidly. “Many of you are still healthy. Strong. Alive.” For the first time since this confrontation began, the undead priest stepped forward. “Answer me this, old friend. If I had not come alone—if I had brought Liam with me, raised, as I was, and still himself, as I am—would your answer be different?”

The worgen jerked back at words that pierced him more than any blade. He panted, his ears flattened to the back of his skull, his tail lashing the air. Anduin, himself reeling from the shock of the archbishop’s words, lifted his hands, cupping them in preparation for the Light. But before he could act, Greymane howled in fury, dropped to all fours—and raced from the room.

Anduin started to go after him, but Faol stopped him. “Let him go, Anduin. Genn Greymane ever had a temper, and now he’s been forced to look at something sad and ugly within himself. He’ll either come around in his own time or he won’t. But now, whatever he says, he has realized he cannot tar us all with the same brush. It’s a small victory, but I will accept it.”

Come on, can you say with a straight face that scene was poorly written? I absolutely LOVED that scene.

Though, that's very rich, Greymane calling someone else a monster, a nightmarish and unnatural creature that should not exist. Uhhh hello? Have you looked at yourself in a mirror lately, you hypocritical jackass? >_>(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

One scene does not redeem a book; there are a few good scenes in Twilight, there are a very tiny amount in Tides of War, anything with Garrosh in War Crimes is heads and shoulders above the rest of that drivel. It's nice scene, but that doesn't mean the entire book is like that; most of the reviews I've seen have termed it either 'Alright' to 'At least it's not War Crimes'.

Post by Rankkor

It's a nice scene, but that doesn't mean the entire book is like that

I beg to differ. I'm almost done with the book and I can say most of the book is like that. There's plenty of really nice scenes like that throughout the whole thing.

I'd post more, but that'd be improper. Its one thing to share a small excerpt of a book online, its another to post the entire thing up.

One scene that hit particularly close to home for me, was the one when Anduin's personal manservant passes away due to old age. I had to struggle hard to not cry on that scene, and had to take a break from the book before continuing. Its been a while since a book did that.

The subplot concerning the goblin and gnome is also equal parts funny, and sweet. After all....

its not every day you see a goblin-gnome romantic couple. I wouldn't call their interactions overly romantic, but they are entertaining. I'm definitely not bored.

And dammit, Gallywix is quickly turning into my biggest "love to hate" character in the book. He's like a goblin danny de vito.

Post by Rankkor

So, I finished the book.

Good god, that was a gut punch as a horde player :( even knowing what was going to happen before it happened, it still stung. Nobody was kidding when they said this was an alliance book through and through. Out of the 35 chapters, less than 8 were from the horde point of view, and in those chapters, it was all about Horde = Bad, Alliance = Good. As if that crap wasn't hammered in hard enough in-game.

So, where do I begin? Ohh yes, Adamsm, disregard what I said about Voss.

The book makes it pretty clear that Calia is going to be replacing Sylvanas as the leader of the forsaken.

So, where to begin?

The book's plot is divided into three stories. The first 15 chapters or so, are set immediately after the ending of Legion, with a novelization of the ending cinematics of the alliance and horde, and deal with the plight of Magni and Anduin to try and secure allies for healing the wound on Azeroth. Magni initially pays a visit to Ironforge to notify the council of three hammers, and then goes off to find more help among the neutral factions, while Anduin goes on a Globetrotter-Tour across all the cities in the alliance, to recruit more people for the effort of both healing the wound of azeroth, and preventing the horde from harvesting Azerite.

The horde's side of this plot concerns with Sylvanas scheming to invade Stormwind and exterminate every man woman and child there and raise them as forsaken, but trying to come up with a way to sell this to the rest of the horde and still manage to get them onboard, with Gallywix showing her the azerite, and the near unlimited potential it has for practically everything. Similarly to Anduin, she does a much smaller tour to two horde cities, Orgrimmar and Thunderbluff, for celebrations to commemorate the defeat of the Legion. She also blackmails Baine into doing what she wants, dangling his secret friendship and correspondence with Anduin, who's now the leader of the alliance, as a bargaining chip. Also, in Sylvanas' absense from the undercity, an interim form of government was formed. Called The Desolate Council, it was a group of merchants and laborers who formed something akin to a Union, to help sate the needs of the population. We'll get back to them later.

The third subplot, is about a goblin named Grizzek, and his gnome ex-wife Sapphronetta (Saffy for short). Yes, you heard that right, a goblin, married to a gnome.

The last subplot, is about Anduin's attempt to bridge the gap between humans and forsaken, by arranging a meeting between surviving lordaeron humans living in stormwind, and their friends/loved ones/relatives who became forsaken and were living in the undercity. This meeting, unimaginatively called "The Gathering" by Anduin, ends in tragedy, and ends up sowing the seeds for the renewed war between the horde and the alliance in BfA.

So lets get the shortest one out of the way first, the entire subplot with Grizzek was a waste of time =/

He used to be horde, defected, built a little house for himself in Tanaris, was approached by Gallywix and strongarmed into researching azerite, was able to convince his ex-wife to join him in the research, the two rekindle their feelings and at the same time invent several revolutionary prototype inventions using Azerite, but when Gallywix tries to force them to focus exclusively in weapons development, they try to flee, fail, get tied to a bomb, and while they managed to get somewhat away from it, it goes off and its left hanging whether or not they survived the blast.

So that plotline went nowhere. Its not that they (maybe?) died, I mean, Aerin also died in The Shattering, but her story had a significant impact on the overall plot for Anduin. This time? You could cut out every chapter involving these two out of the book and it wouldn't change anything. They had nothing to do with the rest of the plot, and their contributions ultimately lead to nothing. Bummer. Because I actually liked the two, and there were some truly funny and/or tender moments between them.

Right, as for the whole shebang involving the Azerite, the wound on azeroth, Anduin's Globetrotter-Tour recruiting troops, and Sylvanas' scheming to convince the rest of the horde to go along with her plans for invading and razing stormwind? All of that gets tossed out the window once chapter 16 arrives. Up until that point, Anduin had been gathering allies to heal the wound, but then he reached Netherlight Temple, and saw how members of the conclave acted friendly and with camaraderie and fondness for each other, despite being made of races of the horde and alliance. But then Anduin's personal manservant Wyll dies of old age, and his death, along with several conversations with Calia Menethil, and Alonsus Faol, cause Anduin to attempt the ill-fated Gathering, and after that, the entire plot focuses exclusively on The Gathering, leaving behind everything else that preceeded it.

That I think, is my one main critique of the book. The first 15 chapters are rendered mostly irrelevant once Anduin starts planning for the gathering, so they end up feeling like padding. Specially the chapters involving grizzek and saffy.

As for the aforementioned ill-fated gathering? What can I say? It went well at first. For the most part. The plan was to have all members of the Desolate Council, send a list to Anduin of 5 relatives and/or friends, these would be interviewed by Anduin and Calia, and whoever wished to meet with their forsaken counterparts, would travel with him to Arathi Highlands, at a meeting spot, placed between Thoradin's Wall and the ruins of Stromgarde.

It went well for the most part at first. Some relatives got cold feet and at the last minute, decided to step away, breaking the hearts of the forsaken relatives that came to greet them (including an incredibly sweet girl named Annie, who just wanted to see her mother one last time). But the ones that stayed managed to reconnect with lost ones that they once thought dead. A little too well actually, because the members of the Desolate Council, unwilling to leave their loved ones behind, potentially to never see them again, as Sylvanas was VERY reluctant to agree to this meeting, decided they wanted to defect to the alliance.

And Sylvanas was having none of that, and ordered her dark rangers to execute every member of the desolate council. She initially only sounded the horn to retreat, with the plan of seeing which members would remain loyal to her, and which ones would still try to defect. But upon being informed that one of the priests attending the meeting was Calia, her temper flared up, assumed this was a plot to oust her from the throne of lordaeron, and decided to kill everyone. Her dark rangers killed every single member of the desolate council, even the ones who obeyed the blast of the horn and were retreating back to Thoradin's Wall. And Sylvanas herself personally shot Calia dead with a well placed arrow to the chest.

Anduin brought Calia's corpse back to Netherlight Temple, where he and Faol managed to revive her, but not the standard resurrection where a dead person is brought back to life entirely. Instead she's........sorta like a lightforged forsaken. She is undead, but the magic involved in bringing her to life came from the light, not the shadow. So her body will never know rot, or decay.

Unsaid, are the implications that this ritual could be replicated on other forsaken, thus diminishing their suffering, and the many disadvantages that come from their current condition.

Calia resolves to take back her crown, acknowledges the forsaken as her people, and says she needs to learn how to rule before she's ready to push her claim for the crown, not to exterminate the forsaken wholesale, but to provide them with a ruler who actually cares about their needs and their unlives.

Even Greymane had a bit of character development, him reluctantly admitting that while he was right about sylvanas all along, he misjudged the forsaken, painting them all as backstabbing monsters, when there were caring, kind, honorable people amidst their numbers.

Anduin ends the book saying that while he will never stop trying to obtain a lasting peace with the horde, Sylvanas is "well and truly lost and there's no saving for her".

So that was the book. Despite being a Golden fan, I must admit, this isn't among her best work yet. A good third of the book is dedicated to several plotlines that end up going nowhere and served as little more than padding. I'm also not very pleased at how much attention the alliance got compared to the horde :( Come on, throw us a bone blizz.....

That said, this book seriously got me. Wyll's death scene hit a little too close to home for me, since I had to watch my own grandfather pass away in very similar circumstances. And the tragic ending of The Gathering?

As a venezuelan, I, better than most, know what is like to live under a regime whose soldiers will shoot you dead if you try to run to greener pastures. I can no longer in good conscience defend or advocate for sylvanas anymore. I've tried to look the other way for many of the worst things she's done, but this is too much. Being cruel and ruthless to your enemies is one thing. Enslaving civilians of a hostile enemy nation is one thing. But specifically and mercilessly shooting down your own unarmed citizens, solely for the crime of wanting to be with their loved ones? For wanting to be somewhere else? I identify with that reality better than most.

The saddest part is that this one scene, pretty much soured up the rest of BfA for me. Whatever victories we attain in BfA (If we even get any to begin with, I remember how MoP was nothing but one defeat for the horde after another) are now forever sullied and tarnished beyond repair, because they're done in the name of a dictator and a madman.

DAMMIT BLIZZARD!!!!! >_< You did it again.

Ohh right, and Jaina had a cameo in it. She showed up in dalaran, told Kael she was sad, wanted to find her own way, and then went away again.

So long Jaina. Thanks for reminding us you're still alive >_>

She and Kael are still broken up, but apparently, he's still pinning for her pretty hard.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by morginar

And now you see why it is hated.

As she is a employee and has more liberties, and this one being of the worst ones. As a fan of the horde, and sylvanas and the forsaken. I despise it. It wasn't before the storm, it was a anduin book. Making the forsaken as evil as can be to make him the better.

Personal notes describe 1984 etc. Not like anything seen in game.

May it rot in med'an.

It is worse than him.

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