General Lore Discussions

Post by oneforthemoney

I think you mean Arator. And that being said I'm actually kind of pleased to see him. He dropped off the map immediately after the beginning of BC so I'm glad he's finally getting some mileage. Kind of sucks no Liandrin but realistically he's my preference. Might actually get some lore for the son of literally the two greatest heroes of the Alliance in the Second War.

Post by Rankkor

And here are the bodyguards for shaman:

Yes!!!!! shaman actually get two bodyguards instead of one. You can pick between Stormcaller Mylra, or Reghar Earthfury. The other champions for them are 1 elemental of each element, Nobundo and Muln

Their campaign also seems interesting, but there's a plot hole they haven't addressed and I'm hoping they do.

Neptulon shows up perfectly okay. Last time we saw this guy, he was being dragged away by Ozumat, never to be seen again. His story uncompleted. Now he's suddenly back like nothing happened?

Post by oneforthemoney

It could just be Blizzard's way of admitting the only important thing in Cata was Deathwing happened, and then died. All other things, and especially the ones underwater, are unimportant.

Post by Rankkor

So this new revelation has me in a bit of a mix-up. I'm not sure how to react to it.

There's this ancient order of paladins that has secretly watched over the tomb of Tyr for at least several hundred years. This means that Uther wasn't the first human paladin by a long shot. It also means this order of paladins, who are supposed to watch over the innocent, stood by and basically sat out of the third war entirely.

The only reason they're even out in the open is because the location of the tomb was discovered by the twilight hammer, and now they need our help to secure the tomb. What about when the rest of the world needed their help? This seems like an extremely one-sided deal here. Though I suppose they DO let us walk away with Tyr's silver hand weapon, so it evens out........ sort of.

Post by oneforthemoney

Pardon me while I groan in displeasure but not surprise.

Hrrrrmmmm.

Post by Rankkor

Groan indeed.

The more I think about this, the less sense it makes. I know I have a nasty tendency to over-analyze things, but come on, I can't help it D=

Okay, ancestral order of paladins that is hundreds of years old, yet NOBODY had heard of it ever before. They're called Tyr's Guard, their base of operations is the tomb of Tyr located in a secret grove in Tirisfal Glades.

First: If they're so close to the forsaken capital, how come nobody has spotted them? Presumably the forsaken DO have an airforce keeping watch over the aerial territory of Tirisfal Glades, I find it highly suspect that a base so close to Deathknell would never be noticed before. Furthermore, the burning legion held Tirisfal Glades for quite a while, and later on so did the scourge. You're seriously telling me NOBODY could detect these guys? nor the incredibly powerful relic they guarded? Nor the super-duper powerful old god general that was buried in the tomb too?

Second: Where do these paladins get any funding? What about supplies? Food? Armor? Training? Their recruitment is exclusively by members of the order breeding among themselves? Or do they secretly recruit from the normal population? Specially now that almost the entire human population on Tirisfal Glades is gone except for whatever remnants exist of the Scarlet Crusade, who would not have as a priority to guard the remains of an ancient titan watcher. IF they don't recruit people, but rather every member of the order has to be born into it, then how can they get new armor? and weapons? and food? and clothes? A secret order of warrior-monks who avoid all contacts with civilization should NOT be as well equipped as these guys are, with ornate equipment and really pimped out weapons. Specially since by the time we meet them, there's less than half a dozen of them left, and by the time the quest is over, the quest-giver very specifically refers to himself as "The last Guardian of Tyr" so those six guys actually were literally all that was left of the order. So who forged their stuff? Who fed them? who.........GAH, THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!!!

Third: Why is everybody so okay with them? These are the guys who basically sat out during the entire second war, and third war, and did nothing to help their neighbors. They only came out of hiding when THEY needed help. The old horde came to tirisfal glades, rampaging through the countryside and they did nothing. The scourge came, and razed the entire land in undeath and even though the silver hand could have REALLY used their help, they did nothing. The legion came, and was this close of plunging the world in eternal darkness, and they did nothing. Now that their precious tomb is in danger, NOW they come out of the woodwork to beg for help, and everyone is absolutely okay with that? really?

Ugh, the more I think about it, the less sense this all makes. I better stop.

Post by Rankkor

So I poked around on the warlock campaign and got to take a look at their recruitable companions for their Class Hall.

Its basically every member of the council of the black harvest, except the gnome, because he dies like the failure he is, and karenhad since he's still banished forever in demon form. Apart from those 4, there's some woman called Kira, and a female gnome with the surname "Fizzlebang" so either a sister, daughter, or wife of the most infamous triffling gnome in the game, there's also a minor demon underling, but then I notice the very last one you adquire at 110, and had to do a double take just to make sure I was reading correctly...........

yep, its them alright.

Those miserable lucky sons of she-dogs >_>

I dunno if those two join you willingly, or if you......... persuade *coughenslavecough* them to do it, but still.......To say that I'm jealous would be a VAST understatement.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

Oh my.

I guess Kil'Jaeden was less than pleased with their performance at the Sunwell.

Post by morginar

Kira the bread vendor of elwynn forest is a warlock overlord?

Edit: Also the love interest of a farmer turned pirate turned farmer.

Post by Rankkor

See, this is the kind of thing that makes me scratch my head in confusion. Some of these quests are so stupid, their story so nonsensical, and going back and forth (See jaina, I've not seen a character this indecisive since Garrosh) but then on other times, its so good, well written, full of well-delivered surprises, etc.

I just did the quest "Bringer of Light" and well, not only was it awesome, it also teases the potential location of the next expansion (Or the one after it) similarly how Wrathion's quest in MoP teased Legion's expansion.

It begins with a luminous object falling from the sky on the broken isles. Its of particular note to the mages of dalaran because it pierced the fel storm that permeates the island, and crashed in the sea near suramar.

Upon recovering it, the object seems Naaru in origin, and displays a message from none other than Turalyon. Unfortunately, the content of that message is in a non-implemented cutscene, the only bits I can extrapolate based on Khadgar's dialog, is that Turalyon and Alleria are alive and well. They were somehow thrown into the twisting nether (Probably via one of the many portals opened by ner'zhul) and since in the twisting nether, the concepts of time and space are meaningless, what for us has been a mere few decades, for them has been millennia. That place has also stopped their aging completely, and they've been fighting against the legion all that time, led by the Naaru Prime, Xe'ra, the same one who foresaw that Illidan is the chosen one of the Light.

The glowing object that was flung into azeroth, contains an important message. Important enough to be coded, and can only be decrypted by the draenei, and the message urges us to bring it to The Exodar.

Khadgar opens a portal for us, and upon arrival......... surprise!!!!!!!!! the legion is attacking The Exodar. Led by a rather sadistic Man'ari Eredar called High General Rakeesh (his name meaning "Butcher" in eredum), countless demons swarm the halls of the Draenei Capital. Before Velen agrees to help us (or even hear why we're here in the first place) he asks us to help evacuate trapped civilians, and help repel the invasion.

After doing both (Including an optional quest to rescue nobundo and his broken) Velen takes a look at the object we bring, and identifies it as Light's Heart, the core of the Naaru Prime Xe'ra, and within it, there's vital knowledge, key for defeating the legion. To him, it becomes clear why the legion chose to attack the exodar just now. Only a naaru descended from Xe'ra can open the core, and decipher the information contained within. Only one such naaru is left now. O'ros, the very same naaru that has powered up The Exodar, and helped the draenei flee from outland. O'ros is the last of the lineage of Xe'ra, and Rakeesh (Who during this entire quest has been taunting us and Velen saying things like "did you see us coming "prophet"? did you foresee this day?") is torturing him, and plans to kill him to prevent the message from being heard.

After reaching Rakeesh, and seemingly saving O'ros, Velen pleads with the Man'ari to surrender, but Rakeesh instead summons a souped up Fel Reaver, and uses it to kill O'ros, then climbs inside of it like a suite of power armor.

At this point, we attack him, aided by velen, and 2 members of your Class Order (Mylra and Hydraxis for shaman, Nazgrim and Thassarian for DKs, Liandrin and Tyrosous for paladins, and 2 vrykul warriors for warriors. Haven't done it on other classes yet) and succeed in defeating him. But refusing to surrender, Rakeesh decides to overload his Fel Reaver, the resulting explosion being strong enough to destroy the exodar, and probably the entire island in which its located, along with everyone on it. At this point, velen starts acting all confused, and bewildered. Saying "wait, I've seen this....no......it cannot be!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!" and he...... he actually begs us to spare Rakeesh and not kill him.

Since the dude is planning on unleashing a nuclear fel explosion, we don't listen and continue our attack, so velen grows desperate, and actually attacks us o_O saying that if we wont spare Rakeesh, then he will stop us. But its to no avail, we succeed in destroy the Fel Reaver before it can explode, Rakeesh using his last words to curse our name before dying. At this point, several bombs are dropped on us. The first one is that Velen begins cradling the corpse of Rakeesh, and talking to him, saying "you asked me if I had foreseen this day, child. I have"

And proceeds to say that thousands of years ago, long before the downfall of Argus, Velen had a son!!!!!!!! On the day he was born, Velen was overcome with a vision, a vision of himself, crying and cradling the corpse of an adult male eredar on his arms. His skin fel-pocked and battlescarred........ like Rakeesh's...... o_O

But he buried that vision on the day he escaped from Argus because Kil'jaeden took his family from him, and he thought himself the sole survivor. But now, as he held the dead body of Rakeesh he understands what that vision meant. Yep, Kil'jaeden tricked Velen into thinking his son was dead, but he secretly kept him alive, turned him into a man'ari, made him quite a sadistic savage, and now, on the hour of his revenge, sent him to kill his own father, the idea being that if Rakeesh succeeds, Velen is dead. If he fails, Velen is forced to kill his own son, or at least watch him die. Either way, Kil'jaeden manages to deliver a crippling blow to his hated nemesis.

Now, broken, and angry, velen says there's nothing left for us there, to take Light's heart and leave. And to tell Khadgar...... that "Light died here today".

Just as I think the quest is over, and prepare to teleport away from there, Velen calls his elite vanguard. When they ask the prophet if he's okay, he angrily responds "I am neither prophet nor pawn. Not anymore!!!" and asks if Romuul survived. Upon receiving confirmation that Romuul did survive, he says "Good. Tell him to begin reparations on the Exodar right away. We are going home"

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN O_O

Dayum. Why can't all quests be as awesome as this? Why? WHY?

Post by Rankkor

Hmm....... You don't look like you.

I'm pretty disappointed with the model they chose to use for him, he had a pretty unique appearance in the lore, but in his debut on the game, he looks like a generic fel lord.

How exactly do you go from this to this?

Post by oneforthemoney

So, saw the warcraft movie. Have to say. not bad.

Wouldn't necessarily drop the nine dollars (twelve for 3d, not worth it the movie was not shot for 3d) to see it, but on a bargain night I'd definitely go. Enjoyable. Very popcorn flick style and the writing was awkward here and there, but the action was very well done and you got a good feeling of scale from it. When a huge orc smacked some poor bastard with a rock he FELT it. Some pointless plot threads but overall, decent.

And Rank? Some of your concerns earlier were not unfounded, but not as bad as you would think.

As for the lore. Well...

Best way to describe the movie was condensed. They had a lot of lore to try and fit in. Some things don't match what we knew as the lore, some things were given greater prominence, but they did manage to get a good amount of it in.

For one, fel became more of presence and the demons and Medivh's being Sargeras incarnate was given a nod but not as much prominence as that he was 'corrupted by fel'. Likewise, Dalaran is floating, so...yeah.

Rank, Gul'dan's delivering Thrall was a moment more of necessity than necessarily choice by Durotan as Gul'Dan was kind of first on the scene, and never does Durotan trust him, nor does Doomhammer.

One thing I really applaud the movie for is throwing in some narrative curveballs. Such as Durotan's heroic death, and Lothar's escape being abruptly cut short. The latter was a little awkward narrativeky. The Horde still mostly came across but they weren't so much beaten as not the whole Horde made it, and the Stormwind army was mauled in the fight. Stormwind itself wasn't torched, but if a sequel happens it can be.

And I really hope a sequel does happen, if not a franchise. The characters weren't great but again, condensed, and now that a lot of the backstory is out of the way ideally they could move forward with more creative writing. It did feel like the writing from the first game, at any rate. Also, they seem to be going with Khadgar was never aged magically, so yeah...

However, I will say it will probably do a lot better overseas than in the native country. Like I said, popcorn flick. It's no LOTR, but it tries and it is good to watch.

As for Hakkar...

That's just lazy right there. I suppose they didn't want to put in the effort for a new model but still. Come on.

Post by Rankkor

I haven't seen it, but read a plot summary of it online, as I said on the main thread, the movie deviates EXTREMELY from the original story, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The main reason the changes annoy me, is because:

All the bad things that happened to the alliance were conveniently removed (Stormwind isn't destroyed, Varian doesn't see his father die in front of him, Khadgar doesn't get artificially aged up, Humans don't have to flee to the north, etc) while simultaneously, everything good that happened to the horde on the first war was removed entirely as well (Like the Horde's victory over the humans, Orgrim challenging Blackhand to a Mak'gora and becoming the next warchief, the shadow council being executed, Gul'dan being put in a coma, Orgrim's friendship with durotan being complex and unique, etc. Instead, Lothar kills blackhand, Gul'dan becomes warchief, the horde fails to defeat the humans, Orgrim and Durotan are not only from the same clan, but Orgrim actually betrays his best friend, WTF? Sure he's remorseful afterwards, but that was one major prick move for horde fans like me)

All of these factors combined, make this movie come across more of an alliance movie than a horde movie. Exactly as I predicted it would happen. I just knew this wouldn't be a movie that would do many favors to horde fans. I just wasn't expecting it to be this badly. I mean, stormwind doesn't get destroyed, ta hell was that?

I'm just hoping that for the sequel, they actually include more horde fanservice, and throw a few bones to the horde fans, because this movie was all alliance, all the way. Durotan even dies long before the final act, making the last points of the movie all from the perspective of Lothar (And therefore, from the perspective of the alliance)

I'm still going to see it, but I'm not expecting great things from it. As a horde fan, this is not a movie that was made to cater to me.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

'Tis true, it didn't do too many favours for the horde. Though be fair first and second war was hardly them at their best. It did at least manage to cast the race in a more sympathetic light, with actual culture instead of just raar smash, and at least didn't make it so honour died with Durotan.

The trouble, I felt, was that it showed a lot of the hallmarks of Metzen's later writing. Lots of characters, all of them jockying for screentime, but too little attention really paid to any of them so you get little complexity. Some parts could have been cut, like the stupid bit with Lothar's son, others could have been beefed up, but again, some of it can be excused for a lot to say and a two hour run time. But yeah. A lot of cliches. I'm hoping the sequel addresses a lot of it. Namely, I expect Orgrim to become warchief next, Gul'Dan to bow to him, then Stormwind burns. It certainly felt like they were aiming for that, and notably, Varian's mom is still alive, so she could die before him still, and at least Llane got axed, albeit in a somewhat contrived way. You'll see what I mean, but I was actually surprised mind control for once wasn't used here.

As well Rank, I think you have a good chance of seeing the humans be not so good next movie. Lothar is very clearly pissed and on the warpath now. The Alliance has formed and we already saw some less than stellar examples of their leadership, and really, it's only when the orc's were subjugated that the Alliance became...less than good.

Post by Rankkor

Though be fair first and second war was hardly them at their best.

This is precisely why I'm so upset about the changes. Very few things went well for the horde during the first and second war. And they're gonna remove what little good stuff happened? not cool.

It did at least manage to cast the race in a more sympathetic light, with actual culture instead of just raar smash, and at least didn't make it so honour died with Durotan.

I suppose there's that. Also, they apparently never drank any demon blood, so I'm curious as to what exactly is the conflict they're gonna put regarding the orc's lethargy after the war is over. Or are they gonna just gloss over that too?

Namely, I expect Orgrim to become warchief next, Gul'Dan to bow to him, then Stormwind burns.

While it could happen, I just don't see how. The humans of stormwind just formed the alliance at the end of the movie. If the orcs failed to defeat stormwind when it was just humans, how exactly is stormwind going to fall now that the dwarves, elves, and gnomes are involved? Originally they beat the humans, and lothar fled north, and it was in the north that the alliance was formed. Now, it was formed long before the fall of stormwind.

Secondly, I don't see how Orgrim is gonna be warchief now. Orcs are not exactly happy with Gul'dan, but he incinerates a bunch of them to force the others to fall in line. If durotan couldn't beat gul'dan in a mak'gora (on account of gul'dan having fel magic) how exactly is Orgrim going to do the same? And if he does beat Gul'dan somehow (Maybe some magic mumbo-jumbo from the Doomhammer he wields), what possible reason could he have to spare his life?

I dunno. These changes threw a giant wrench on the narrative, and now I don't imagine how exactly are the events of Warcraft 2 supposed to unfold. Nor how is the horde supposed to march north when the south is still standing.

Some parts could have been cut, like the stupid bit with Lothar's son

Agreed, or the even stupider bit about Garona and Lothar's wholly unnecesary romance sidequest. That ultimately leads nowhere, and from all the people who've seen it, is just forced, and awkard. Kinda like the romance between Jaina and Kalec, or Thrall and Aggra.

On a related note, I'm wondering if they will ever include the pandaren on any future movie. I mean, on the collective consciousness of pop culture, anthropomorphic pandas are forever associated with the movie Kung Fu Panda, even if warcraft's pandaren predate that movie by a decade. Some races may not look so well on the big screen too, like the tauren, or the kobolds, or quillboar.

Post by oneforthemoney

Well it looks like Warcraft has already made back its budget thanks to the overseas so who knows? We might make it to the Third War, and thereby bring in more. I have to admit, I am really looking forward to the trolls coming in, and the ogres should the first sequel be made. But they might hold back on the more exotic races for now. As is, the movie failed to give a really strong feel for Azeroth. Like I said, an okay fantasy movie. But hardly LOTR.

As for the whole thing about Orgrim and Gul'Dan, think about it. They managed to bring a lot of orcs through, so the Horde is fair sized now. The Alliance has formed, but they're hardly united, and Stormwind's lands and armies got smacked down hard even before the portal. Still, if Orgrim wants to not be stomped on, he'll need to move fast and strong, because its been established the humans want the orcs gone. He might get desperate to save his people, which is in line with his character shown so far, and pretty much all the orcs are fel infused now. And remember. The real swing of the war happened thanks to the first gen death knights.

Besides, Gul'Dan doesn't want to be warchief. He wants power alone, and it's far easier to leave the whole military bit to an actual warrior the orcs will follow. It's why he bothered with Blackhand, and again, the rank and file orcs don't like him at all right now. He's basically a necessary evil.

As for the lethargy thing, it wouldn't be so far as you might think. Early on it's very clearly established fel makes up a huge part of the green orcs. Literally, the magic is a part of them. Taken away abruptly, they become basically mummies and die.

It's possible to salvage the movies and make them great. I just hope they get someone in to balance Metzen on the writing part. Like how Star Wars had a bunch of people tweak the finer story once Lucas was done with it. Most notably, the dialogue. And we saw what that was like if Lucas didn't have anyone to do that for him (prequels).

Post by Adamsm

It's a good fantasy movie..but since it's an alternate time line, I just can't bring myself to care that much. I'd rather have the movies be about the actual history of Azeroth.

Post by oneforthemoney

It is a shame about that, but I can certainly understand the reasons for it. Different mediums require different methods. And even then, it kind of shows they had some trouble mixing the existing warcraft lore in. I don't want to keep harping on the LOTR movies but they cut and changed a lot from the books (notably the army of the dead bit), and adapting from a solid narrative is much easier than doing so from a game that's gone through countless retcons and adjustments over the years.

Post by Adamsm

Yeah I know, but I'd have rather seen the actual sacking of Stormwind and watch the humans flee north towards Lordaeron. Also, who in their right mind thought Lothar x Garona was a good idea.

Post by oneforthemoney

Metzen romance writing at its finest. Let's just be glad Draka and Durotan were already married. Although, ironically, the friendship between Doomhammer and Durotan, and love between Durotan and Draka was actually pretty well done.

General Lore Discussions

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