General Lore Discussions

Post by oneforthemoney

Well, technically Stormwind's leader turned out to be a dragon and got killed, then replaced with king chin, so yeah.

And besides, when was the last time the Night Elf leadership did anything meaningful as Alliance leaders? They're about as retired from their respective faction affairs as Thrall is.

Post by Adamsm

Difference is, Nazgrim wasn't a faction leader.

Cairne was. And when he died, he stayed dead.

As far as faction leaders go, the alliance has had a pretty sweet ride, as their leaders have more or less remained immaculate, with the sole exception of Magni who was turned to stone, and even that isn't gonna last forever.

On the horde however, we've never had a real goblin leader, since Gallywix has been pretty much absent in the game, and other than 2 cameos in short stories, also absent from the lore as a whole. So that's goblins without a leader. We are currently without an orc leader, as Garrosh is dead, Thrall stepped down, and currently, neither in the loading screens, nor in the game, nor in the lore do we have an actual official leader. So that's Orcs also without a leader. Trolls currently have Vol'jin who is slated to go missing for god only knows how long, and since he has no immediate successor, this means Trolls are also without a leader. Taurens already lost Cairne, and while Baine is his successor, this doesn't changes the fact that we actually lost someone, permanently. The only two races of the horde who still have had intact leadership are the forsaken and blood elves.

Alliance on the other hand, still has the night elven leaders intact, draenei leader intact, worgen leader intact, gnome leader intact, 1 dwarf leader on a temporal leave, but even then, his daugher, brother, grandson, and distant cousin all stepped up to replace him, and he's slated to come back anyways. And Human leader currently intact, and even if something happens to him, he has a successor ready.

Would it be really that unfair for the alliance to lose ONE of their leadership? Because we've lost 60% of ours. I don't think its exactly fair that the alliance can keep being the immaculate, how about rubbing some mud on their faces for a change?

Yeah and up to his death....he did nothing to be completely honest: Yes he was a part of Warcraft 3 but in Vanilla, BC and Wrath he didn't do anything; Cairne was the generic leader and he was replaced by Baine who did things. Varian has been the on going leader of the humans for the past 5 expacs; he more or less has plot immunity at this time and this death will not stick because it's not 'real' IE they haven't found the body and it's probably presumed that he is dead due to the crash of the Skybreakereseque ship. Rubbing mud is fine...but you don't kill the only active leader for no reason.

Post by Rankkor

they haven't found the body and it's probably presumed that he is dead due to the crash of the Skybreakereseque ship.

IF this was the case, he'd be listed as missing like Vol'jin. With Vol'jin there's no body, there's no confirmed death, so he's listed as MIA. If they're not listing Chinman as MIA its for a reason.

Rubbing mud is fine...but you don't kill the only active leader for no reason.

Unless....... you're trying to make OTHER leaders active. Understand that King Chin has been humping the spotlight to a rather psychotic degree on the alliance side. Its like none of the other leaders can even fart because Varian takes care of that too.

Post by Adamsm

Not really; if they wanted to stir people up(like it is), they'd say one is dead the other is missing to screw with people; of course if it was the opposite, you'd hear a lot more people complaining about this. I don't believe it Rank; they aren't going to invest as much as they did to make him likable then drop a house on him. As for the other faction leaders; they don't need to kill one to make them active.

Post by Atik

Rubbing mud is fine...but you don't kill the only active leader for no reason.

No, you just make them step down, put a manchild in their place, kill the manchild, replace them with a horribly inactive Troll leader.

Or, in the case of the only other active Horde leader, you have her start jumping down the slope into psycho town, alienate all but her most die-hard fans, and then don't have her do ANYTHING for THREE EXPANSIONS.

The Horde hardly HAS leaders at this point. In Mists of Pandaria, we sort of had Garrosh. Who didn't even do anything until the very end, where he just went evil "because". Then in WoD we had... no one. There was sort of Thrall and Durotan, but both were horribly inactive and not even Horde-aligned.

And then the Alliance in Mists had Varian, Tyrande (who was HORRIBLY out of character, but I digress), and Jaina all doing things. WoD gave them Yrel, AU!Valen, Maraad, and Khadgar; all of whom were blatantly alliance aligned. (I raise that Khadgar was leading the dalaran forces, and post-Mists Dalaran in alliance-aligned.)

So yes, the Alliance has one leader who does anything. But that's one more than the Horde has.

Hell, as another point. Onyxia manipulating the Alliance leader? Has literally never been adressed outside of her quest line. The Horde had two expansions basically telling us we were bad people for listening to Garrosh.

Jaina goes crazy and commits literal genocide? Quietly forgotten about. Meanwhile, there are, like, 30 levels of questing that keep bringing up Sylvannas raising the dead to bolster her forces.

As for the other faction leaders; they don't need to kill one to make them active.

I think you overestimate Blizzard's writers...

Post by morginar

Do you think Anduin is going to become the alliance high king? I think that other leaders is going to dislike that, considering gnomes/elves/draenei aren't a monarchy and is illogical of them to follow someone based on "their father was king, now I follow him."

Not to mention it wold be brain-hemo for long lived ones to follow a human child.

Post by Rankkor

Not really; if they wanted to stir people up(like it is), they'd say one is dead the other is missing to screw with people

A: this doesn't make any sense.

B: Do do know what Morale is right? If there was even a small hope that Varian may still be alive, they'd keep that hope high to prevent morale to fall. If they're not listing him as missing, its because he aint missing.

Purposefully lying to their own and say their king is dead, and Crown Anduin as King (and presumably High King of the alliance as well) just to "stir people" is exactly the sort of stupid backwards logic that I'd expect from the gnomes who nuked their own city to stop an invasion. Not from the rest of the alliance as a whole. In the time where leadership and unity is needed most they're gonna actively lie to their own people? gimme a break man.

; of course if it was the opposite, you'd hear a lot more people complaining about this.

For good reasons. As Atik and I have said, the horde leadership has had a pretty horrible run. Say what you will about the alliance leaders, at least they're still there. Meanwhile we have orcs with no leader, goblins with no leader, trolls with no leader, taurens with their leader killed, etc.

I don't believe it Rank;

You didn't believe the leak about The Shattering where someone mentioned how Ironforge would accept the Dark Iron Dwarves, and Magni would become a diamond in the rough, and the Council of Three Hammers would be instated. It still happened.

they aren't going to invest as much as they did to make him likable then drop a house on him.

Why not? Is there any rule in writing that characters who receive character-development also receive plot immunity? this hasn't been the case with other characters who've gotten attention, neither here, nor in any other forms of fiction. Being a faction leader doesn't grant one plot immunity to death. There's been many faction leaders who've died over the course of warcraft.

As for the other faction leaders; they don't need to kill one to make them active.

Once more quoting Atik, you're putting too much faith in blizzard's writing team. They don't do subtle. When they want a character out of the way, they kill him. Look at what they did to poor Orgrim in warlords. Didn't know where to put him in the story, so he was unceremoniously killed like an underpaid extra. Even though he was arguably the most influential orc of all times next to Gul'dan. They could have come up with a way to still give nominal importance to the other warlords without killing him, but that would actually require effort. Its far more easier to remove him quick with a kick to the bucket.

Also, one could easily say they devoted even more time, effort, writers, and spotlight on Garrosh, giving him character development (for better or worse depending on who you ask) and turning him from a total stranger back in TBC, to the biggest driving force this game has seen, kicking in motion the events of FOUR expansions in a row. And yet they still killed him.

They gave Maraad the spotlight, character development, an actual badass backstory, and a big focus in promo material including a miniseries narrated by him. They still killed him off.

Just because a character has received focus, doesn't mean he or she is immune to deaths.

And besides, when was the last time the Night Elf leadership did anything meaningful as Alliance leaders? They're about as retired from their respective faction affairs as Thrall is.

For one thing, even if they haven't done anything RECENTLY, they HAVE done stuff. Maybe not major stuff, but they have done stuff. Tyrande had a minor (horrible) role in MoP. Malfurion has done quite a lot in cataclysm, and is stated to do even more in Legion.

And secondly, they're in the game.

Meanwhile, orcs spent an entire expansion literally with no leadership at all. Because to this day there's still nothing official over who leads the orcs, and this doesn't seem to be changing for Legion.

Goblins have been without leadership since the race was introduced 3 expansions ago.

It doesn't compare dude. Even if the alliance leaders haven't done anything recently, they're still there. Compared to the horde races who one by one have been left bereft of leadership. So yeah, I sincerely hope they kill Chin-man off. Its about time the alliance starts to lose some people too (Though frankly, I would have preferred Jaina to go first, but meh)

Even the official website for the game lists the orcs as leaderless. The Founders of the faction. The biggest race in it. And they have no leader. Name one alliance race that doesn't have anyone leading them.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

Post by Rankkor

Honestly, this just seems like an attempt to get interest in the expansion: I don't think this will be carried over to live or again, it's a bait and switch and we'll land on the Isle's with Anduin and Varian will walk up leading some new faction group that is going to join the Alliance.

Seeing as he was still alive at the end of the cinematic, me thinks he just dies during or at the end of the Broken Shore zone. We still don't know what happens on this zone, but comments made in blizzcon highlighted that the events in this zone would shock us, and that people WILL die. In fact, quite a lot of people were speculating that Thrall would die in this zone, which is why players get the Doomhammer. Why is that plausible, but Varian dying is inconceivable?

and the Horde will get the same from Vol'jin(possibly).

This would make the whole "Warchief Sylvanas" thing completely pointless. So I doubt it. Best case scenario, Sylvanas remains warchief for this entire expansion and we only find Vol'jin at the end of Legion, or the start of whatever expansion comes next.

Worst case scenario, we hordies end up in a Garrosh 2.0 situation, stuck with a jerkass for another 5 years.

I have a feeling it's going to talk about the Skybreaker being shot down and Varian slipping under the water...so he's presumed dead.

Sylvanas was with him, I'll remind you that she jumped to the alliance gunship shortly before it fell, and was standing next to him on the shore when he resurfaced, and she ain't missing. So no, his death has nothing to do with the gunship being shot down. Sylvanas saw him swim to surface, so I still say his death comes at a later point in the game. I still put my money on him dying during, or at the end of the Broken Shore. Not during a cinematic that takes place before the whole thing.

Post by Adamsm

And I bet it's not true, so we'll have to wait till Beta officially launches.

Post by Rankkor

Actually we'll have to wait until Live :P since even stuff in beta is subject to change.

Personally, I'm not thrilled at all with the prospect of being stuck with another Jerkass warchief for god knows how long. And even though it hasn't even remotely officially began, this expansion already started on the wrong foot as far as I'm concerned.

I'm just saying, if we have to suffer with being stuck with Sylvanas, the least they could do is have the alliance get stuck with anduin.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Rankkor

Post by morginar

Whelp, Tirion is the first confirmed KIA of Legion. Also among the dead is Ysera. Also, much to my relief, the Lich King, isn't gonna be a recycled villain to be brought up later. He has awaken from his slumber and apparently leads the knights of the ebon blade. And it seems that Maiev is on our side. What is it with the alliance just letting murderers go unpunished? :S

Well, that explains the Ysera nightmare boss. Though the four nightmare dragons from vanilla are back, even though one is sane and helpful in cata-ferelas.
As for Maiev, I liked her in frozen throne (good thing we don't kill her), and it seems we can have fanfics wit her and Illidan <3 (I didn't kill you becouse I like you or anything... Baka)

Edit: Also have you noticed that they spell it Kal'dorei now. When as far as I can remember night elves are spelled Kaldorei. A Darnassian =/= Thalanassian thing. Do I smell a retcon?

Also, a archaeology dig-site is named Kal'delar. Meaning starblade.... Hmm...

Post by Septimus

Post by Rankkor

heh, so much for Thrall "dying" so we can get the Doomhammer.

New council of Six? I recognize Modera, Kadghar, and Vargoth, but who's the baldie?

LMAO Cloud and Aerith reference FTW.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

New council of Six? I recognize Modera, Kadghar, and Vargoth, but who's the baldie?

Abu.

Post by morginar

You better pick up that phone because I called it. There would be a Windrunner in the hunter lodge (that looks nice, was worried I would get some tauren hut).

And I guess we know one more council member . Does this imply the player mage is the 6th member? Edit: Guess not, we see the whole council at this vid.

New building. Thats where tirions statue is. Is it the mage order hall?

LMAO Cloud and Aerith reference FTW.
They did have a Aeris referance in WotLK. Next Dalaran will have Sephiroth killing Aerith?

Post by Rankkor

This right here, as to be the biggest load of BS I've ever seen in my entire life.

The entire quest to get the Fire Mage artifact is BS from start to end.

Aethas Sunreaver gets on his knees in front of the council of six. And he BEGS for forgiveness.

Pardon my very colorful french but WHY THE F#$&ING F#$% IS HE APOLOGIZING FOR?!?!?!?!?!?!

"I'm sorry I was threatened with death and the deaths of my entire people if I didn't keep my mouth shut?"

"I'm sorry a crazy b#$%& butchered my people like animals even though they had no involvement on what happened?"

This is beyond ridiculous. Would it kill blizzard to let the alliance be in the wrong about something JUST F#$&ING ONCE!?!?!?!?!

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

/head-desk.

I can't even believe the hubris of that Ansirem asshat. "Betray the kirin tor again"!?!?!! seriously? SERIOUSLY!!?!?!?! The Kirin Tor betrayed the Sunreavers, NOT the other way around. What the hell blizzard.

WHAT THE #$%&#%&" HELL!?!?!?!

Ohh that's it, I bet kosak wrote that piece of trash. I've just about had it with that jerk.

>_>

And as for Aethas......... thatspinelesscowardisanelfnolongerhispridewascastoutthewindowthemomenthebentthekneetothehumanbutcherswhomurderedandbackstabbedhispeopleAGAIN.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by morginar

How was the start?

Who was that sunstrider girl? Why did we kill her. Why was she undead etc.

Why is the grand magister a member of the six?

As for Kosak. Any bets on the MM killing Aleria?

General Lore Discussions

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