General Lore Discussions

Post by Rankkor

it will need to have another edit to add "It was later said during blizzcon 2015 Q&A that they will not appear in but the expansion after that"

Post by oneforthemoney

Looking back at the story in Warlords, I think the only one that I really liked was Shadowmoon. Ner'zhul made a great villain and contrast with Velen and Yrel, with just enough screen time and presence to give the story the weight it needed. Though Velen sacrificing himself seemed a little over the top to me, at the same time, really, it was the only big sacrifice the Iron Horde managed to squeeze out of us. We had to pay big for that victory, and it was a close one.

After that one, and maybe the battle for Shattrath, we never really reached the same level of tension in the expansion. Guldan was a lingering evil that always had his claw in events, but he was more of a menace working just outside the scenes, but he worked it well, and Khadgar likewise provided a good enemy.

But in terms of general story line, yeah. Shadowmoon was the high point for me.

Post by Rankkor

For me, Shadowmoon was hit and miss. Too many scattered stories unrelated to one another, and only 2 of them with any major significance (Yrel's story ending with Velen's sacrifice and the defense of karabor, and the other one involving Socrethar). While I loved the subplot of Socrethar, for my personal taste, Yrel's story had a really rushed pacing. But that's just me.

For me, my favorite parts of the expansion were Frostfire Ridge (seriously, best.zone.ever) and oddly enough, Spires of Arak. In Arak there were three boring subplots (Infected goblins on the south, Taylor's garrison, and the player's garrison) but the main story with the arakkoa was amazing, in no small part thanks to Reshad who is easily my second favorite character in this expansion right next to Gan'ar.

Maybe its my horde-preference speaking for me, but the story in Frostfire felt more cohesive and unified. Several subplots that are all relevant to the total whole rather than a scattered set of quest-chains that have nothing to do with each other (indeed the only "lone strand" of quests in frostfire is the one with the shadow-hunters). Plus the climmatic battle at Thunder Pass was MILES better than the incredibly disappointing defense of Karabor.

The other zones weren't that good for me. Gorgrond was a vast disappointment. After giving a truly spectacular introduction to the laughing skull, they proceed to utterly vanish from the expansion and do absolutely nothing for the rest of it.

Nagrand had some good nostalgic bits, but it wasn't as good as the starting zones (Except for the bit where Garrosh finally kicks the bucket, if nothing else because that cancer is finally removed from the game), and Talador suffered from the same problem I had with Shadowmoon. There's no unified story, instead there's 4 scattered subplots unrelated to each other, neither getting sufficient focus to feel large and epic.

And the assault on Shattrath was the biggest act of stupidity I've seen in this game, and considering my loathing of the goblin starting zone, that's saying a lot. Not only the most influential orc of all times (Orgrim) gets killed like a punk after having said only 6 lines in the whole expac, but really, what was the point of the battle of shattrath? What did we gain? we don't retake the city, we don't stay, we don't even kill the ground forces, we just shove our way past their front infantry, sink 2 boats, and suddenly we're supposed to feel all heroic because we slightly wounded Blackhand? The city wasn't retaken, the 2 biggest BAMFs in draenor (Maraad and Orgrim) died, we couldn't even expel the iron horde properly from Tanaan, given that they still have a heavy presence there during the events of the garrison campaign (With Azuka) and the events in 6.1 (With garona).

The cutscene was cool, but remove that, and what's left is a mediocre quest chain full of fridge-logic everywhere. And while I've ranted too many times about it, it needs to be said again: They killed Orgrim Mother$%&&$ Doomhammer for no reason. What.the.hell?

Post by oneforthemoney

Yeah. I feel that what they were trying to do with Orgrim was what they did with Maraad for the Horde side, but they bungled his intro and presence, thus making it largely pointless. But to be fair, a lot of Warlord's story lines look like they were put together with a hacksaw.

But though I don't agree with your preference between Shadowmoon and Frostfire, I do about Spires. Easily one of the best zones in the expansion, and yeah. Reshad is awesome.. The Arrakoa storyline was well done and easily one of the most put together out of all them even though it lacked an individual enemy. The only thing lacking in that zone was the Shattered hand and how little the Iron Horde did in there, and how kind of out of place they were in there. Seemed like they were just shoved into a place where there wasn't any Iron Horde who had story tying them to certain places.

Post by Stabhorn

What don't you like about the goblin start zone, Rank?

Post by Rankkor

This is weird.

Christie Golden is working on a new book. The thing is........ this book is a prequel to the upcoming Warcraft Movie.

A prequel for a prequel?

Speaking of the movie, it wont adhere 100% to canon lore. They're gonna make a few adjustments. The mere fact that Durotan will have a large presence on it proves it, as he and his clan sat out entirely on the first and second wars. If he's playing a part, it would make no sense to have him just pacing around in Alterac.

Yeah. I feel that what they were trying to do with Orgrim was what they did with Maraad for the Horde side, but they bungled his intro and presence, thus making it largely pointless. But to be fair, a lot of Warlord's story lines look like they were put together with a hacksaw.

The thing is, they bungled Maraad too. As it is Maraad was never a large or prominent character. He never did anything in the game other than a microscopic cameo in WOTLK. His only prominent role was in the comics, and even then, he was mostly just 1 out of many trainers for Med'an (may his presence never disgrace the game. Amen). He wasn't even THE mentor for Med'an as that role was covered by Khadgar. So he was already an incredibly minor character, who's only reason for popularity was that he was one of the few draenei characters with a name, and this was supposed to be his debut expansion............

And then he dies. Not only he dies, but does so without really doing much, since all the focus had been given to Yrel. So here we were, golden opportunity in hand to finally give him the spotlight he deserved, and all they did was kill him off to boost the story of someone else.

I can't even say that much about Orgrim's death. His death didn't even boosted Durotan's story, because he's not even mentioned a little bit after the matter.

But though I don't agree with your preference between Shadowmoon and Frostfire

hehehe, its a matter of personal preference I admit. But really, that defense of karabor scenario was pathetic. Its short, it has zero interaction with anyone other than Yrel (And a microscopic Akama cameo where he says 1 line and then disappears). All you do is fly on your mount dropping bombs for 1 minute, land, get 1 line of dialog from Akama, kill 3 orcs, then defend a set of stairs all by yourself, while Yrel is behind you channeling a spell and rarely saying (very uninteresting) lines at all.

The Battle of Thunder Pass featured an epic battle, and awesome banter by all the major characters you meet in Frostfire. It feels like a more climmatic ending to a zone, and Gan'ar's sacrifice actually made more sense. Speaking of Gan'ar, by the light that dude knew how to use up what little time he was given. And it wasn't the only large battle, there was also the awesome siege of bladespire, to which in shadowmoon there's no equivalent of. (Originally we were supposed to break an iron horde siege on the temple, but blizzard, as usual, changed their minds at the last minute)

I'm curious, what did you dislike (or liked less) about Frostfire than shadowmoon? I mean, you said why Shadowmoon was the best zone to you (I agree with you there, Ner'zhul was a great villain, and a great counter-part to Velen and Yrel. That's the main thing I can agree Shadowmoon was better than Frostfire. The Iron Wolf just wasn't that interesting) but I'd like to hear your thoughts in Frostfire.

For me, Shadowmoon would've been a lot better if they'd prune it of the 2 extremely boring quest-chains that add nothing to the story except to pad it out (Purifying the Gene Pool and Gloomshade Grove), and it would've been better if the "pursuit of justice" quest was integrated to the main story. That right there was my favorite subplot of shadowmoon (Akama is awesome, but Maladaar is THE boss among the draenei for me) and it felt like an appendix because it had nothing to do with the main threat to the story.

All the parts of the story in Frostfire were linked to the main story, from arrival, construction of the garrison, siege of bladespire, repelling the counter-attack on Wor'gol, securing the south (Poor Asha T_T) helping gan'ar with his vengeance (he totally channeled Achilles when he dragged Grotan's corpse around) then sieging the Thunderlord stronghold, and securing the thunder pass.

Also, in shadowmoon, other than Yrel, Maladaar, and Velen, everyone treats me like a stranger. Some even mistrust me. I know they're justified in doing so (they're in a bloody war and they've never seen our race before) but the Frostwolves show a lot more camaraderie and brotherhood, with Durotan, Draka, Drek'thar, Gan'ar, Lokra, and Karg all treating me like a companion, and a fellow wolf-brother. There were characters in Shadowmoon, but they were just allies, not comrades. A lot of them don't even speak to me directly, they converse with Yrel or Maraad, or Maladaar.

What don't you like about the goblin start zone, Rank?

Bleh, too long to explain. Maybe later.

Post by Atik

What don't you like about the goblin start zone, Rank?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to take a opportunity to voice why I personally dislike the Goblin starting zone.

So much of the zone is just running around and letting Blizzard show off weird quest gimmicks and phasing. Hardly anything actually happens. Which is really annoying, because it's nearly an hour and a half long (last time I did it, at least). The entire experience just drags forever, with no real sense of progression. You solve one problem, and it is completely forgotten in favor of another.

My best example is the Pygmies, who are only relevant for about three quests, all of which are super-gimmicky and just not fun. And, when the Alliance and Horde finally show up, they just feel really tacked on.

And then of course there's Thrall suddenly growing a brain tumor and leaving Gallywix in charge when there were at least three better options. And, in a similar vein to the current Sylvannas problem, they haven't done ANYTHING to try to get out of the corner they wrote Gallywix into.

Compare this to the Worgen starting zone. It's very quick, with only the occasional gimmick that usually makes sense in context. After your infection, the story is always very clearly the battle against the Forsaken and, later, the Horde. It's fast, relentless, and concise. The Horde and Alliance have a very well integrated and natural presence, and it's just FUN.

Now, if only it wasn't riddled with a stupid amount of game-breaking glitches that can literally force you to reroll a character. And haven't even gotten mentioned or looked at since the zone was first released in Cata.

Post by oneforthemoney

Post by Atik

So a bit of a crack theory here.

We never actually see Gul'Dan fight, that I can recall.

What if the big twist is, he ends up as a raid boss eventually? But, instead of some big epic fight like we all expect, he's little more than a feeble old Orc?

Imagine it. Gul'Dan stands atop a staircase, surrounded by a Fel shield. Between him and us a hundreds of demons, charging at the raid. Various large minibosses come to be slain. Finally, we meet him, break through his shield...

...And he dies in one hit? Because, at the end of the day, despite all his magical prowess, he is nothing without his demons?

Post by morginar

...And he dies in one hit? Because, at the end of the day, despite all his magical prowess, he is nothing without his demons?

He is quite the spellcaster who can solo Grom and he might use metamorph? And some quote that the demon is in his skull.

And he can casually throw gorehowl with ease.

Frostfire is like a boring frozen ^&*! hole that was supposed to look like iceland, but turned into greenland with some embers. It's ugly for me to look at.

Shadowmoon looks like how I picture a night elf zone would look like... It's a beauty, but it feels odd in draenei and orc hands.

Post by Rankkor

I think the major part of what I disliked about Frostfire was that the Thunderlords really lacked a personalized menace. As you said, the Iron Wolf left much to be desired as a villain, but above that, we had to juggle between them two villainous factions rather than just one, with little intersecting between the two. I think I might have preferred it if the two sides menacing us were working together, rather than ogres here, Thunderlords there, and nothing tying them together aside from fluff. As well, the Thunderlords themselves never present themselves as much of a threat were it not for the Iron Horde backing them. They're the prologue while you wait for the REAL Iron Horde to show up.

But, other than the ogre bit which was spot-on, the exact same thing can be said about the Shadowmoon Clan. They're not part of the Iron Horde either, they're trying to prove their mettle in order to be deemed worthy of joining in the first place. We don't even see iron horde troops until the very end, which is exactly what happens in Frostfire with the Thunderlords.

The main threat of the Thunderlords lied in their superior numbers compared to the frostwolves, but its true they lacked the "Super weapon" angle that the shadowmoon had with the Void Star. I suppose the sense of urgency came from the Frostwolves being much more inferior than the Draenei. After all, over 70% of Shadowmoon valley belongs to them, whereas the frostwolves had only 2 very tiny villages in the entire frostfire ridge.

I agree with ya that the ogres felt VERY tacked on (as was their dungeon, the slag mines) and added just for the sake of adding them.

Contrast the Shadowmoon who continuously menace you throughout the zone. They themselves are the enemies you face, and under their own resources and power they manage to provide the means of nearly bringing the Draenei capital to its knees and, my God! not all of them are utterly evil!

Its a bit ironic the last part of this statement, because in Shadowmoon Valley, we encounter a faction of exiles of the shadowmoon clan, proving that not all the clan is evil. But only ONE of them bothers to join us (Rulkhan). In Frostfire however, we encounter almost no evidence of non-evil thunderlords, save for a few individuals, certainly not a whole village by any means, but THREE of them join us, rather than one. Including Mulverik.

But the thing I really liked about Shadowmoon was that it not only set up the self contained Shadowmoon plot, but future plot lines and characters as well. I see the Pursuit of Justice Quest less of an appendix and more building on additional plot for future zones, mainly Talador, so it neither detracts or distracts from the more pressing Shadowmoon menace. There's also the Sargeri with the rise, and Shadowmoon Burial Grounds, all of them tied into the greater Shadowmoon zone story.

With Frostfire, once you finish there, it's not longer the story about the Frostwolves (barring the Laughing Skulls line but that ended quick). It's you and the Horde moving forward. The dungeon and Apexis zone feel like appendixes, much like the ogres did in general. With the draenei, you continue to follow their story through to the next, and Shadowmoon builds on it.

Shadowmoon just feels like its more wholly constructed and tied together for both after the leveling experience and during, rather than just quest chains ending the story. Every time you do something in Frostfire you leave it behind once its finished. In Shadowmoon, there's more of a lingering presence in the locations and things that happen.

You raise a lot of good points (particularly in how what happens there, is a prologue for what happens later) and yet the main reason I liked Frostfire more lies again in the protagonists.

Shadowmoon had better antagonists (Socrethar and Ner'zhul are FAR better than The Iron Wolf, and the King of Bladespire, who's name I don't even bother to remember) but Frostfire had better protagonists by a long shot.

There's just no chemistry in shadowmoon, neither between the cast and me, nor between themselves (Yrel non-withstanding), there's no feeling like I belong there, and I'm given very few reasons to care for what happens. Also, for me, Yrel's story was waaay too forced and too quick. I'm not saying it was bad, just that I wish her story was spread more evenly across the zones, rather than going from nobody-acolyte to chosen of the prophet in 16 quests.

I felt incredibly sad when Asha died in Frostfire. I was yawning when Yrel's sister predictably died in Shadowmoon. I was full on bawling when Ga'nar died in Thunder Pass. I was scratching my head in confusion when Velen did the same in Shadowmoon.

I wish the adversaries in Frostfire had been as cool as the ones in Shadowmoon, but ultimately, the cast won me over. In shadowmoon, a lot of them are VERY stiff. But this is more of a problem of draenei in general. They're WAAAAAAAY too solemn, stiff, and serious. (man, what I'd wish for a dwarf-centric expansion, now THERE is an aliance race that should be in the spotlight)

Oddly though, the situation reverses at 100. Yrel's story at the level cap was a lot cooler than Drek'thar, and she does a hell of a lot more than Durotan, Draka, or Drek'thar combined ever will. Her trial was a lot more awesome than the confusing mess that was Drek'thar's fusing with a Fury (Which is never fully explained)

You do raise an excellent point that Frostfire pretty much fades into complete and absolute irrelevance at 100. I mean, the Iron Horde has a foundry there where they make weapons, but that subplot (if it can be called even that) has nothing to do with the frostwolves, or thunderlords, or anything explored in Frostfire at all. Big contrast to when we have to go back to Shadowmoon to chase Socrethar.

What don't you like about the goblin start zone, Rank?

Atik raised pretty much every reason why I hated the Goblin Starting zone. There's not much I can add, but I'll put in my own 2 cents about it tomorrow. Suffice to say that the zone in general is the biggest act of stupidity I've seen in this game. On behalf of everybody. The player, the antagonist, Thrall, the devs, the supporting cast, Thrall, the alliance, and yes, Thrall. I have to mention him 3 times because putting Gallywix as leader has to be the dumbest thing to have disgraced this game since it was made. It was an incredibly out-of-character moment for him, that negates the point of everything we've endured on that zone.

Post by oneforthemoney

That is one thing Shadowmoon struggled with, I admit. The protagonists left something to be desired in their chemistry together, and yeah. When Yrel's sister died it was a pretty big meh moment. That said, when Velen stepped into the light to purify the star I was very much impressed.

I think a problem the draenei (save Yrel) had was the same thing Orgrim suffered. Blizzard assumed you knew enough of him beforehand that they didn't feel the need to construct too much more story around them. Save Maraad, but he died due to mandatory mentor sacrifice, and he did have a fair amount of screen time to give him a presence. That, and we have Maraad 2.0, but it's hard to get too excited about that.

The orcs also had the benefit of characters tied to those dead coming to Draenor from Azeroth, which helped to connect things together story-wise. Draenei may as well have had to start from scratch because though there are familiar faces, no one who comes with us has much of a connection they didn't before even coming through. Pretty much no difference between our Velen and this one, and Maraad was alone to begin with (thankfully).

Post by Rankkor

All things considered, I'm incredibly glad that Me'dan didn't come to draenor too to try to meet his mother. I want his scrawny little ass as far from the game as possible =P

This expansion was a massive serving of disappointment for me though. One of the biggies as a blood elf fan, is that Liandrin didn't have as much presence as I hoped she had. She shows up for 1/4 of a zone, and then that's it, adios. The teased Blood Knight lore, was also something they did not deliver on. Hell, there's a lot of one-shot NPCs we never see again that have their own unique voice-actors in the tanaan intro (like that female night elf druid that becomes our first follower) but Liandin still had her generic voice.

Would've been nice to see Liandrin at least as a background character like Dezco was in MoP where the cool bull was in several places, even if he didn't do much. Even had his own short story. Instead she shows up once in tanaan, and 3 times in Talador. And only has her own unique voiced lines in exactly one quest.

Post by oneforthemoney

Post by Morec0

I think the real shame about Warlords is the sheer amount of potential wasted. They had such a great idea, developed the orc and draenei cultures so well. Once we look past how stupid getting there was, it was a great setting with great potential villains and factions spread out in a whole new world.

But all of that remained potential, and so little was brought out. Hell, aside from Blackhand, none of the Warlords were even deemed important enough to be their own end of raid bosses.

The only thing I can really think of was that this was a clever sort of test ploy - a game used to get out and test new models, multiple in-game cinematics, garrisons, and probably a few other things and gauge player reaction to them - while making the money of a real expansion while they work on the ACTUAL next thing behind the scenes, tweaking this game's content for it.

*puts away tinfoil hat*

Post by oneforthemoney

The only thing I can really think of was that this was a clever sort of test ploy - a game used to get out and test new models, multiple in-game cinematics, garrisons, and probably a few other things and gauge player reaction to them - while making the money of a real expansion while they work on the ACTUAL next thing behind the scenes, tweaking this game's content for it.

*puts away tinfoil hat*

That could be a big factor. Warlords did introduce a lot of new things, maybe not relevant to the expansion itself, but to the game in general. New character models, more cinematics, and yeah, the Garrisons.

Post by Atik

inb4 the next expansion removes Garrisons because they didn't contribute to raiding.

Post by oneforthemoney

inb4 the next expansion removes Garrisons because they didn't contribute to raiding.

I hope the new expansion builds on the Garrisons. Has us move them like Dalaran to the new zone, not leave them behind the Pandaria farm with nothing to show for it but a dog wandering around the new herb garden.

Post by morginar

inb4 the next expansion removes Garrisons because they didn't contribute to raiding.

They did have the raid gear missions, that contributed when moving up in the raid difficulty.

Hope the next garrison have some racial customization and the new war mill have racial gear instead of orc/human + orc clam armor.

Post by oneforthemoney

orc clam armor.

I agree. The pale orc's aquatic cousins didn't get showcased nearly as much aside from the armour.

General Lore Discussions

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