General Lore Discussions

Post by morginar

(How else can a raid boss go to dung boss?)

I raise Garrosh as an answer. He went from Raid Boss to quest mob.

As a raid boss, he had heart of plot device. Without it, he is weak. And I could add he defeated player and A/H main character.

Yep. I'm willing to put money that Ner'zhul was stronger than Kargath, despite him being a 5man rather than a raid boss.
I suppose so, or Ner'zhul will do a Anub'arak and return. Thus keeping the raiders happy that they don't raid the same guy twice. Also that Shadowmoon might not be a raid-worthy story.

Boss strength is relative. From a gameplay perspective, Precious and Stinky in Icecrown Citadel dealt way more damage and had far more health than King Ymiron, the leader of a race devoted to war, the Vrykul. That doesn't really mean they were lorewise stronger than him. Who knows? A giant zombie of doom and plauge vs a downsized Ymir who is a mere viking monarch.

Loken technically should have been a raid boss too, since he was the most powerful of the Keepers. Its all a matter of where Blizz wants to put them. Being in a Raid or Dungeon doesn't necessarily diminish their power. I can agree with that. Dimensius destroyer of worlds (unlike deathwing HAVE destroyed worlds) was a 5m quest boss in netherstorm. Dis guy destroyed the ethereal homeworld K'aresh.

Post by cephadex

Oh I've had a crappy, crappy day, where it was just one thing after the next; you were really nice in your reply though even though I don't agree with some of it. I apologize in advance as this post has turned out a bit obnoxious, because I'm just really tired and don't feel so awesome...

Awww D= but I like these arguments, even if we don't find common ground, I find it interesting to see the different points of view of other people.

I don't know how to explain it, I just don't like the big arguments. I feel like it's hard to find the right way to convey what I'm feeling.

And for the record, I do change my mind sometimes. Not often of course, but sometimes :P

This has made me smile haha

When I first joined these forums my opinion of Varian was nothing short of abysmal. But through countless debates with other members and getting to see him through their eyes, my opinion of varian changed. I still don't like him, but I don't hate him anywhere near enough as much as I did back in 2009.

I have this love-hate with people like Varian. He's just so easy to ridicule and he's so annoying in so many ways (why is he the leader of the entire alliance? Who the heck has a statue of themselves erected in front of their keep while they're still alive? Why is he so boring and not fun? But on the plus side, he had that cute bromance with Arthas in boyhood ("I hate winter--"), and he used to fight for the orcs' entertainment, so you can't hate everything. Plus he has long and luxuriant hair. But he's just so annoying, you know?

Skipping the whole sha thing and whole garrosh thing, just, you know, I'm too tired for that. Someone at bliz comes up with stories, and no matter how bad they are it becomes this sacred ground that fans worship, which is ridiculous, the characters themselves deserve greater dignity than what they did with some of them.

Oh and you know Rankkor, we really disagree in regard to the architecture. I really dislike "pretty = good," pretty much the reason I got into wc in the first place back in wc3 was when I saw how savage the orcs were and how cool and badass their buildings looked. As much as I love the BEs (which may or may not have to do with a crush I've had on Kael'thas since wc3 but then they had to go and make him look ugly but in my mind he's still hot, what was I on about? anyway), I think their architecture looks like a glorified brothel, it's scathing and tacky, like a harlot being made to dress up as to emphasize being cheap; but I'm not going to go into the symbolism there because I can already feel the disagreements we'll get into. I love the savage orc buildings with all the spikes, I don't want everything to be pretty, and I really don't want everything to be MgT all over again.

Don't be, I like rants (When they're done like the way we've been doing them, mutual respect, no namecalling etc). Some days I think about changing my forum name to Rantkor xD

This has genuinely made me laugh irl, thank you, I was feeling so crappy

Yeah =/ for me him and Sylvanas have been horribly handled in this game.

I don't really want to start on my Sylvanas rant because I suspect it'll open up a whole new can of worms; my main gripe with how she was handled, and this goes back to wc3, is that symbolically Arthas basically 'put her in her place' for daring to stand up to him, but everyone still loves Arthas; but when Maiev did the same thing to Illidan, everyone hated Maiev, including Bliz themselves (you can tell by the storytelling). Think I've ranted about this here before though.

Anyway really sad to me that you hate Jaina so much, I really like that for the first time ever she was more than some sweet little woman. In Rise of the Lich King it really pissed me off how Arthas was like 'never deny me anything' and instead of asking him what the heck kind of a controlling thing to say that was, she goes okay-- and then later Arthas guilted her because she denied him-- to the point where she was crying about it later instead of asking what the heck was the matter with him for being so convoluted. It was like Bliz felt compelled to make her really agreeable and sweet and agree with everything as to stroke the male ego of the average player who would be intimidated by a strong female otherwise, same as with Alextrasza ("yikes, we're making the leader of the dragons female? Better dress her up like a prostitute and make her super sweet and nice about everything so the average player won't hate her for being powerful"). It was tremendously refreshing to me to see Jaina not being sweet for once. No, I don't agree with what she did, but it was a human sort of fault, ~~and also I like that she tied up Aethas because to me he's Kael'thas and he probably appreciated that on some level don't ruin this for me~~.

and Thrall has become an emasculated crybaby and a shadow of his former self.

No argument there

At this point I think the only least-damaged character from War3 that has been mishandled in wow was Muradin. And time will tell how long that'll last.

well, he's innocently handing out dailies atm, what could go wrong? (Famous last words)

Its the disadvantage of having english be a secondary language to me. Sometimes it glitches out on me, and I misinterpret something I read in a different way, only to realize my error later on. Its caused me countless problems =/

Ah I forgot it's your second language. Was your first Spanish? I don't know any, but I like the word Duarte.

I'm sad that Garrosh is dead.

NO, WAIT!

Put down the pitchforks and torches for a moment, please. I shall explain.

*cautiously putting them down*

Seriously laughed at this...

(*)Yes, the horde were more entitled to have the bell, considering it was the elves who found out about its existence in the first place, did all the leg work to locate it, and figured out its exact position in the first place. The alliance had to steal all of this information to beat us to the punch.

True, s****w you, alliance.

Precious and Stinky in Icecrown Citadel dealt way more damage and had far more health than King Ymiron, the leader of a race devoted to war, the Vrykul.

hahahahaha XD

Post by Rankkor

Sorry about your bad day :(

I've had those before and they really REALLY suck.

I have this love-hate with people like Varian. He's just so easy to ridicule and he's so annoying in so many ways (why is he the leader of the entire alliance? Who the heck has a statue of themselves erected in front of their keep while they're still alive?

Not just one, he has an ego-driven need to put statues of himself everywhere. Not even Sylvanas has an ego that big, and she's the one who's people hail her name as a greeting and a goodbye.

But no, the thing I dislike the most about him, is his hypocrisy. I really reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly hate hypocrites IRL, so naturally any hypocrites in a videogame are to me little more than images I wanna kill in violent fashions.

I'm just gonna give a couple of examples of Varian's hypocrisy because I don't wanna drag this the whole day, but notice how Varian got all upset during the Trial of the Crusade Raid, because the horde "Made baseless accusations, and besmirched their honor", but of course, he was allowed to make baseless accusations during the Theramoore Summit, and personally call the frigging Warchief of the Horde, the most insulting slur in orc culture (Coward) and get away with it, never once apologizing for it once he found out that he was in the wrong. But now, here the horde has apparently wronged him and there he is, demanding apologies.

Horde Troops attacked elves and skinned them and carved the horde symbol on them, I DEMAND AN APOLOGY (Even though it wasn't really horde troops, but whatever), but hey, his own troops attacked without provocation the people of the Valley of Trials, Sen'jin Village, Razor Hill, and Honor Stand, and brutally tortured and enslaved the captives, and not one apology from him.

He gets into a fuzz about how the orcs enslaved him and blah blah blah, ignoring the fact that he was probably the best-treated slave in history, but whatever. But his own people enslaved the orcs for 20 years, which he apparently never even cared in the first place. At least the horde slavery was illegal and behind close doors. But his people enslaving the orcs was perfectly legal, enforced, and approved. He's whining about his time as a gladiator to thrall, even though he was a gladiator for a year at most, wheras thrall was a gladiator since the time he was born.

So yeah, to me he's a whiny, entitled royal brat, who oozes hypocrisy, and has an oversized armor and weapon to compensate for his own insecurities. He got a little better in Mists of Pandaria, but at the expense of making three women look bad, since they transplanted his leeroy jenkins tendencies into Tyrande, his bigotry into Admiral Rogers, and his genocidal tendencies into Jaina. So yeah, 2 of the most badass women of warcraft had to be ruined to make him finally look good.

/rant.

Oh and you know Rankkor, we really disagree in regard to the architecture. I really dislike "pretty = good," pretty much the reason I got into wc in the first place back in wc3 was when I saw how savage the orcs were and how cool and badass their buildings looked.

They don't have to be pretty, but they at least should look acceptable. Seriously, take a look at our garrison buildings. Look at those embarrasing barracks. I think a broom closet has more space than that thing. The armory doesn't look any better. The buildings are uncreative, its just wooden logs with spikes and haphazardly thrown red tents. Its possible to make gorgeous buildings that still use a primitive primal savage theme, but they haven't done it yet in world of warcraft.

They did in warcraft 3, and specially in warcraft 2 (now THOSE were buildings) but IMO, they haven't done it in wow yet. Plus, I'm just tired of orc architecture, the horde has a lot of other gorgeous things to look at. Same goes for the alliance. I'm a huge fan of dwarven buildings, but rarely if ever, get to see them because its human everywhere. On the horde, I really like the buildings of the elves, goblins, and tauren, but run into the same problem, its orcs everywhere.

As much as I love the BEs I think their architecture looks like a glorified brothel, it's scathing and tacky, like a harlot being made to dress up as to emphasize being cheap

Sorry you see it that way, but to me, I love the arabian theme of their buildings. It brings some diversity to the generic "Anglo-saxon Medieval Fantasy" gig that most games in this genre have. Its the same reason I love the Tauren buildings so much. Plus the Court of the Sun has to be the most glorious castle in the whole game. Bar none. Its a shame I'll never get to see it from the air (The devs said that it would take them no less than 5 to 7 months to redo silvermoon so the city is visible from the air)

I love the savage orc buildings with all the spikes, I don't want everything to be pretty, and I really don't want everything to be MgT all over again.

This is a fair point, but personally, I think both extremes are bad. If they made everything about elves, I'd get tired of it just as much as I got tired of the orcs. There needs to be variety. The horde has a lot of rich architecture to draw from, so rather than focus on a single race and ignore all the others, I wish they'd use all the races regularly. Not make everything about orcs, but rather, make the horde bases be orc, tauren, troll, forsaken, blood elf, goblin, and pandaren.

Anyway really sad to me that you hate Jaina so much

I agree with you that she was far too passive, far too sweet, and specially far too willing to let others boss her around. But making her a female Varian was the wrong move. There's authoritative and badass, and there's jerkass, hypocritical, and genocidal.

Plus I have some personal reasons for my hatred. I was present for a real-life equivalent of the Purge of Dalaran, where I was shot and heavily wounded, then thrown in jail just because of the paranoia of a totalitarian madman, so its understandable that when a totalitarian paranoid psychopath does it again in wow, they're gonna earn every ounce of my wrath. I don't care if its a man or a woman, I don't care if its a character I used to love, I don't care if what was done was for the betterment or the worsening of them, they're going down.

I would let go of my hatred if they at least apologized, and showed remorse or regret over their actions and worked to make amends, but she hasn't. She's 100% unrepentant of what she did in 5.1 and has suffered absolutely zero consequences whatsoever. More infuriating however, is that the writers seem to want me to pity her and feel sorry for her, like she's supposed to be some sort of victim.

AND SCREW THAT, She's no victim here, she's a bully, and a monster, and she needs to be held accountable for her actions. Until she does, she's dead to me.

same as with Alextrasza("yikes, we're making the leader of the dragons female? Better dress her up like a prostitute and make her super sweet and nice about everything so the average player won't hate her for being powerful")

Are you sure? She was a pretty badass dragon in Twilight Highlands, going mano-a-mano with Deathwing himself, and wounding him badly enough to take him out of the picture for 2 whole patches of the game. And she's always been sweet and nice about everything, even before wow, goes in hand with how she's a metaphor for maternity and nature. She's the queen of life, so naturally she loves all living things, even the ones who hurt her, shown by how she's forgiven the orcs for the absolutely abysmal way they treated her in the second war.

The role of a forgiving mother doesn't really suit with a guy, it would make him look soft. A woman however embodies the nurturing spirit of a mother, while at the same time embodying the absolutely terrifying wrath and power of a mom who's kids are in danger. I see her as the dragon equivalent of Ripley from the Aliens movies.

I'll agree with ya that the slutty outfit was not needed, at least they could've given her some pants like Ysera and Sylvanas who both share the same outfit.

And then they had to go ahead and ruin her in patch 4.3 =/

First by replacing her old, dignified, maternal voice, with the voice of a 15 year old that isn't sure what to wear to the prom.

Then by softening her up in the book Twilight of the Aspects. U_U

To me, she was THE most badass woman in azeroth (and from a certain point of view, prior to the cataclysm ending, she really was the most powerful woman on the planet)

Ah I forgot it's your second language. Was your first Spanish? I don't know any, but I like the word Duarte.

Yes, its spanish :P but Duarte is a name, not a word xD

Anyhows, I hope you're feeling better now, and not so tired.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

He gets into a fuzz about how the orcs enslaved him and blah blah blah, ignoring the fact that he was probably the best-treated slave in history, but whatever. But his own people enslaved the orcs for 20 years, which he apparently never even cared in the first place. At least the horde slavery was illegal and behind close doors.

Rank, we've been over this. The internment camps were literally the best option at the time. And as for Horde slavery...that's really a grey area. They had gladiator fights in Orgrimmar itself, and Thrall didn't bat an eye when his chief advisor outright said that he used slaves as gladiators, so it's either a very blind eye situation or legal.

Post by morginar

Isn't Brawl'gar Gladiator arena, Open in org, hidden in Storm. also there is some gladiator quests in Durotar I believe.

Shattered hand have gladiator fights in WoD. Might be a old tradition.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Stabhorn

Post by Morec0

Post by Rankkor

You know I was thinking about the fight with Teron'gor in Hellfire Citadel....they should have given him a new body rather then what it is currently, and the body they should have used was Maarad's; give Yrel one last gut punch before the expansion ends and she comes back to regular Azeroth with us.

You're assuming she's gonna live, AND come with us? I wish I had your optimism bro'.

I'm almost certain they're gonna kill her off. If we're lucky. If we're not, she's gonna become a villain, or they're gonna make her look bad so Varian can look good again.

They've compared her to Joan of Arc several times, and that was a faith-driven holy woman who martyred herself for her cause.

I hope it doesn't come down to that, but that's where my gut tells me they're gonna go with Yrel, which is why I haven't really bothered to get any attachment to her. If she miraculously manages to live through the expansion, not only I'm gonna be suitably impressed, I may actually bother to like her.

He gets into a fuzz about how the orcs enslaved him and blah blah blah, ignoring the fact that he was probably the best-treated slave in history, but whatever. But his own people enslaved the orcs for 20 years, which he apparently never even cared in the first place. At least the horde slavery was illegal and behind close doors.

Rank, we've been over this. The internment camps were literally the best option at the time.

Maybe, but the mistreatment of the prisoners wasn't. Neither was to keep their progeny incarcerated too. Its understandable why they would treat them like dirt, but just because I can understand it, doesn't mean I can condone it or approve of it. Their treatment of the defeated enemy was nothing short of despicable.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Rankkor

If they were going to make Yrel a villain, they would have started setting it up before now. Since Grommash is going to be a hero(or at least fight back) I can't see them turning Yrel, especially after all of the events that occur between the zones and the Garrison campaign; after all, she officially becomes a member of the Exarch council.

And yet, they turned Maiev evil right the frick out of nowhere, and did the same for Jaina.

Last time we saw Maiev she was depressed because her prey was dead and she felt hollow inside. Next thing we know, suddenly she's a serial killer.

And as for Jaina, she crossed the Despair Event Horizon, was brought back from it by Kael, and in MoP she even gives an incredibly hypocritical speech about trust, and how Dalaran will be a bastion of neutrality (While she's blatantly helping the alliance) and blah blah blah. And then at the snap of a finger she's conducting an ethnic purge, and advocating for the complete extermination of the horde.

Don't even get me started on the women in the horde side.

Zaela was shown in cataclysm as an honorable woman, who sought to break free of the corruption of her forefathers, and avoid the same mistakes that nearly decimated her clan, yeah sure, she was also shown as loyal to garrosh, but one of her key pieces of characterization was avoiding making the same mistakes that led to the downfall of her clan, and avoiding the same corruption that tainted the old leadership. And then in MoP out of nowhere, she's supporting another tyrant, who is corrupting his people with Sha Energy, and doing pretty much the exact same mistakes her previous leaders made.

And Shokia, she was a pretty decent woman in MoP, a cool-headed sniper, and then out of the clear blue, she was outed as a garrosh loyalist that was a double-agent all along.

And Sylvanas, while she has always been ruthless and pragmatic, she never showed any hints of villainy during wow, and then in Cataclysm they made her unbelievably evil right out of the gate.

When it comes to turning people into evil, blizzard doesn't exactly have a track record of being subtle about it, and drop hints of foreshadowing.

Plus, turning her evil is but one of the possible fates of Yrel, right now my money is in Martyr. I'm gonna be genuinely surprised if she lives. Blizzard doesn't exactly has a nice record when it comes to women.

Post by oneforthemoney

I think she'll live. They already offed Velen and Maraad. They would have begun building up someone else with Yrel if they planned her to die, which was what they did with her and Maraad.

As for Jaina, her reasons for the purge was that she ordered the blood elves to lay down their arms and get in the Violet Hold. Most didn't, hence the whole forcing the issue. Not saying it was right mind you, but she didn't just start murdering every blood elf she came across for the sole reason of the theft of the bell.

Post by Rankkor

I think she'll live.

We'll see. I still have my reservations. Not any concrete proof, just the precedent that blizzard has with female characters, and that they've compared her to Joan of Arc (A real life martyr) several times.

As for Jaina, her reasons for the purge was that she ordered the blood elves to lay down their arms and get in the Violet Hold. Most didn't, hence the whole forcing the issue.

The civilians weren't armed, and they too were tortured and killed. On the sewers, the Silver Covenant thugs were beating up and torturing defenseless civilians, and one of them was even feeding them to the shark in the sewers.

Same goes for the shop owners who were dragged out of their stores and shot in broad daylight in the middle of the street.

Not saying it was right mind you, but she didn't just start murdering every blood elf she came across for the sole reason of the theft of the bell.

I beg to differ because I did the alliance version of that quest, and I very clearly remember that she teleports to dalaran, and without mediating a single word, automatically murders 2 elves right on the spot. Without a pinch of regret. She just killed 2 people for no reason, and she's shown to not have a single regret about it.

And as stated above, several of the civilians were unarmed and fleeing for their lives before the Silver murderers started to butcher them.

Awwww come on blizzard =/ this AU stuff is complicated enough as it is. Why complicate it even more?

Someone asked afrisabi on twitter if the Archimonde we fight in Hellfire Citadel is from the AU, or the MU. Afrisabi says that demons don't work that way, that his soul is "anchored to the nether" which "transcends all realities".

This doesn't make sense for a plethora of reasons.

1: Archimonde was an eredar before becoming a demon. If there are two velens, then logic demands there's 2 archimondes too.

2: If demon souls are anchored to a single twisting nether that transcends all realities, what happens to beings that become demons? (Satyrs, Felblood Elves, Chaos Orcs, Illidan, Socrethar, Eredar in general, etc)

3: If demons exist in all planes of reality at once, then after Archimonde died on Hyjal, he should have died on all realities, how comes he's still alive?

4: What happens to demons that have died at different periods of time? Hakkar the Soulflayer for example, who died on the third war originally, then died in the War of the Ancient after the time-traveling shenanigans of Krasus and Rhonin.

This makes so little sense it actually hurts. Do they even think before saying stuff like that?

Post by oneforthemoney

I think you mean Hakkar the Houndmaster there Rank.

Post by Rankkor

errm........ yeah....... I knew that........

>_>

*coughs*

Post by Adamsm

And yet, they turned Maiev evil right the frick out of nowhere, and did the same for Jaina.

Last time we saw Maiev she was depressed because her prey was dead and she felt hollow inside. Next thing we know, suddenly she's a serial killer.Not as sudden as people think; we already knew that Maiev would do anything to deal with a threat and she saw the Highborne as threats. The fact that she turned her entire crew of fledgling Wardens into that well....that was out of nowhere.

Post by Stabhorn

Awwww come on blizzard =/ this AU stuff is complicated enough as it is. Why complicate it even more?

Someone asked afrisabi on twitter if the Archimonde we fight in Hellfire Citadel is from the AU, or the MU. Afrisabi says that demons don't work that way, that his soul is "anchored to the nether" which "transcends all realities".

This doesn't make sense for a plethora of reasons.

1: Archimonde was an eredar before becoming a demon. If there are two velens, then logic demands there's 2 archimondes too.

2: If demon souls are anchored to a single twisting nether that transcends all realities, what happens to beings that become demons? (Satyrs, Felblood Elves, Chaos Orcs, Illidan, Socrethar, Eredar in general, etc)

3: If demons exist in all planes of reality at once, then after Archimonde died on Hyjal, he should have died on all realities, how comes he's still alive?

4: What happens to demons that have died at different periods of time? Hakkar the Soulflayer for example, who died on the third war originally, then died in the War of the Ancient after the time-traveling shenanigans of Krasus and Rhonin.

This makes so little sense it actually hurts. Do they even think before saying stuff like that?

:/

That's so stupid. But I'll tell you why I think they're doing this. Now, no matter where we go in history, we have the same enemy. Now we don't have to return to our Azeroth to finish our business there. Yay.

Post by oneforthemoney

Post by Morec0

Post by Atik

This is pretty dumb I agree. It's Warhammer 40k level of demon thing. Which, if you understand the setting, is extremely depressing. It's basically saying we can never beat the Legion because their leaders are always going to come back, so every sacrifice we make to beat them is pointless. Delaying the inevitable.

"Darkness Induced Audience Apathy" is the trope that comes to mind.

And the WoW setting is really starting to fall into it, it seems. Between literally genociding the Dragon race for no reason, making the Old Gods literally unbeatable and a very poor attempt at cosmic horror, "there must always be a Lich King", and now invincible demons?

GG, Blizzard. I stopped caring a long time ago. Our only hope are the Titans. Who are probably just as bad.

General Lore Discussions

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