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Post by
cephadex
True for most of the book (that trial was beyond pointless, and the subplot with sylvanas also led to nowhere) but the last chapters had pivotal consequences in the game, seeing as it shows how garrosh escapes, shows that the dragonmaw are all behind him, shows that Wrathion was the man-behind-the-man on his escape, and shows Kairoz betraying everyone to break Garrosh out. In other words: actual consequences, actual plot moving forward, stuff happens.Except...they aren't; beyond giving us a reason to go to Draenor, none of the stuff in the book has had an affect on Azeroth itself. Wrath is on Draenor and no one has tried to capture him, Kairoz was dead before we arrived, the Dragonmaw were destroyed in Upper....oh yeah, so much 'useful' things.
Oh, come on; I'm no fan of that book by any means, but I think there was some pretty significant stuff happening there... then again, I think a lot of what happens in WoD was disappointingly pointless, so maybe from that perspective that would make what "prequel" it had insignificant by association...
Female characters looking bad for male to look good? "hush Tyrande" "Strategy Sylvanas" etc?
Or Maiev turning crazy? "I feel nothing, I am nothing."
She didn't turn crazy; I really like Maiev, and I don't think that part was bad, she really did perceive her entire life purpose as keeping Illidan jailed (mind you, I don't know if there's really a point in evaluating her as a character, though, because, as with Garrosh, I think she was written in kind of a two-dimensional/biased way in the first place). I don't think that making females 'evil' is bad per se, what matters to me is whether or not they're powerful ("
hush, Tyrande
"? Didn't the ancient Kaldorei perceive females to be superior anyway, with priestesses as pretty much ranking the highest?) and whether they're just put into "typical female" roles (love interest, sex object, doting mother/wife, or supportive little helper).
(God, with that speech you'd think I'm a NE supporter or something)
And I think
Strategy, Dark Lady
was meant more to reflect Lor'themar's own personality as a strategist rather than any implication about Sylvanas; Lor'themar was beneath her after all as ranger.
Post by
Rankkor
Nope, that one actually got the plot moving forward, with several key events happening that changed the status quo, like the dissolution of the Wymrest Accord, the destruction of the upper section of their temple, the death of Krasus, the awakening of Ysera, the revelation of the Hour of Twilight, and several other things that had relevance and actual consequences in the game.None of which is ever mentioned in game...and the biggest consequence, the 'dead' body of Chromatus has never been referenced either. The entire plot with Aryi went nowhere, the Alternate Blackhand did nothing important, the Twilight Father was revealed at the end....but we already knew that and even then, it wasn't mentioned at all when Thrall went into the base of the Temple with the Soul.
Still explained a lot of important stuff, like the hour of twilight, why Krasus is dead, why is Wymrest Temple destroyed, why is the wymrest accord dissolved, why is Ysera known as The Awakened, and yes, the reveal of the Twilight Father. In the game it wasn't touched on much, so most info about him came from that book. In other words, actual stuff happened. While we never dealt with Chromatus, I wouldn't say the plot with Ary went nowhere. It had a beginning and an end, she was freed and it was dealt with.
A better example of a plot going nowhere was Sylvanas's subplot on War Crimes, since it introduced a change in the status quo, only to reverse it back to default at the end, and there are no lasting consequences.
Again, not true. It showed the destruction of Theramoore, and Jaina going bats$%& crazy. The former is visible in the game, the latter led to the purge of dalaran. Actual consequences, actual plot moving forward. It wasn't just pointless ego stroking like wolfheart or stormrage were. Neither of those had anything to do with the game, and what happened in them was pointless and led to nowhere.Too bad other then the bomb itself, nothing is mentioned in game about it either.
Jaina being nuts is the only thing that carried over
; so we had to sit through a 300 page book for those two small items, oh so important.
You say that as if that's a small inconsequential thing. It wasn't. It pretty much was a complete 360° on her characterization up to this point, and the book shows how this drastic reversal happened. It also sheds light on the future of the blue dragonflight (namely that its dissolved) and how kael and jaina hooked up. Yes yes, I know that was tasteless, but still, its plot, its actual events, happening, and moving the plot forward with actual consequences.
Not to mention that this book was the first hint that the rest of the horde wasn't as obedient to Garrosh as initially believed, and it also showed why are there blackrock orcs in the horde. It also introduced Malkorok. And it hinted at the Kor'kron being used as Thought Police and kidnapping dissidents, which was later expanded in 5.3 This book did a lot and it had a lot of consequences that were felt and seen into the game. Easily one of the most pivotal books right along The Shattering.
True for most of the book (that trial was beyond pointless, and the subplot with sylvanas also led to nowhere) but the last chapters had pivotal consequences in the game, seeing as it shows how garrosh escapes, shows that the dragonmaw are all behind him, shows that Wrathion was the man-behind-the-man on his escape, and shows Kairoz betraying everyone to break Garrosh out. In other words: actual consequences, actual plot moving forward, stuff happens.Except...they aren't; beyond giving us a reason to go to Draenor, none of the stuff in the book has had an affect on Azeroth itself. Wrath is on Draenor and no one has tried to capture him, Kairoz was dead before we arrived, the Dragonmaw were destroyed in Upper....oh yeah, so much 'useful' things.
*sighs*
None of it had an effect on azeroth itself? hello? how about the invasion of the iron horde? There's a BIG question mark at the end of SoO. Last thing we saw was garrosh getting chained and be brought up to trial. And then all of the sudden, iron horde invading us. War Crimes shows us how that happened. Or at least the sections of the book devoted to Garrosh's escape did. I'll concede that both the trial and the subplot of sylvanas were colossal wastes of time that led to nowhere, but the book itself wasn't. As it showed how garrosh was able to escape. It showed who was behind it (In the game its never stated or hinted that it was Wrathion), and it showed extra details, such as that the entire dragonmaw clan was still supporting garrosh even after defeat.
I must repeat my question: What exactly happens in wolfheart that actually matters? Something we can see, feel and measure in the game. Absolutely nothing. It was pure Varian Ego-stroking, and nothing more. Ohhh Varian is not bipolar anymore. Whoopty-doo.The addition of the Worgen to the Alliance and what actually happed. The return of Jarod Shadowsong, finally explaining why he was captured in Hyjal. The reveal of where the new Wardens were coming from. Finally being able to see how the Highborne were readmitted to the Alliance beyond that one flavour bit.
Addition of the worgen to the alliance: We saw that in the game, we didn't need any book to expand on that. On the book it simply shows how the alliance came to trust the worgens, but their actual joining happened in the game.
As for Jarod returning, that'd be great, if he actually did anything in the game, or was a major character. He's neither. His appearance in hyjal is a cameo at best limited to the last 3 quests. So yeah, the circumstances of his return don't really carry any importance.
The Reveal of where the new wardens are coming from is hardly vital info. Its not like it was ever implied that Maiev was the one and only warden ever. It stands to reason that there were many others.
And as for the Highborne, same as Jarod, their admittance into the alliance is hardly important information considering they do
absolutely nothing
in the game. As far as night elves go, the only ones who get even a shred of importance are Malfurion and Tyrande. The rest are nameless folks who never do anything. And that's on the few times Malfurion and Tyrande actually get to do anything big, since they're always second fiddle to the human trifecta. (Jaina+Anduin+Varian).
You can skip wolfheart and be missing pretty much nothing. But skipping War Crimes would leave a big question mark on how did garrosh escape, and who was behind it. Skipping Twilight of the Aspects would leave a lot of details about Wyrmrest temple and the accord, and deathwing, and the old gods unresolved. Skipping Tides of War would leave the destruction of Theramoore (An event of tremendous far-reaching consequences in the game, that pretty much spurred the alliance into waging total war with the horde with the same fierceness as the orcs did) and Jaina's descent into madness completely unexplained.
She didn't turn crazy;
Ohh yes she did. Not in Burning Crusade. But in Wolfheart. She essentially loses her $%&# when she sees that Darnassus is accepting Highborne back, and basically becomes a serial killer. Slaying highborne left and right for no other reason than bigotry. And then she makes death threats when discovered, and flees.
Not exactly a paragon of sanity.
Post by
Atik
Ohh yes she did. Not in Burning Crusade. But in Wolfheart. She essentially loses her $%&# when she sees that Darnassus is accepting Highborne back, and basically becomes a serial killer. Slaying highborne left and right for no other reason than bigotry. And then she makes death threats when discovered, and flees.
Not exactly a paragon of sanity.
Where I'm from that's just a good night on the town.
Post by
morginar
Female characters looking bad for male to look good? "hush Tyrande" "Strategy Sylvanas" etc?
Or Maiev turning crazy? "I feel nothing, I am nothing."
She didn't turn crazy; I really like Maiev, and I don't think that part was bad, she really did perceive her entire life purpose as keeping Illidan jailed (mind you, I don't know if there's really a point in evaluating her as a character, though, because, as with Garrosh, I think she was written in kind of a two-dimensional/biased way in the first place). I don't think that making females 'evil' is bad per se, what matters to me is whether or not they're powerful ("
hush, Tyrande
"? Didn't the ancient Kaldorei perceive females to be superior anyway, with priestesses as pretty much ranking the highest?) and whether they're just put into "typical female" roles (love interest, sex object, doting mother/wife, or supportive little helper).
Well, most if not all WC3 characters are 2D due to the nature of a RTS, it's a hard thing to write a 3D character in such a platform, just as having a good conflict is hard to do in a MMO-RPG.
Well, back in the WC, Tyrande wasn't a healer or a support, but in WoA, they retconed her as a support, damsel in distress and a love intrest. and Malfurion was the badass druid who killed dozens of demons with roots and fauna, whilst he was a healer in WC3.
Personally the crazy villain bat is mostly a bad thing.
And I think
Strategy, Dark Lady
was meant more to reflect Lor'themar's own personality as a strategist rather than any implication about Sylvanas; Lor'themar was beneath her after all as ranger.
Though I do believe it was a continuation from Isle of thunder to make Lorty some bad-ass, it shouldn't come at the cost of Sylvanas that is superior in terms of rank etc.
Ohh yes she did. Not in Burning Crusade. But in Wolfheart. She essentially loses her $%&# when she sees that Darnassus is accepting Highborne back, and basically becomes a serial killer. Slaying highborne left and right for no other reason than bigotry. And then she makes death threats when discovered, and flees.
Not exactly a paragon of sanity.
As Adam said in a link below his posts. We already know she's quite willing to leave allies for dead to get what she wants. Is her randomly killing highborne so out of character?
Honestly; Yes it was.
I agree with that. And I personally think that those that oppose the highborne should have been more, just as Staghelms mindset pre crazy should have been more common. As such revolutions tend to bring disagreements.
How much haven't the night elves changed these past 10 years* gender restrictions ended, their druids order became neutral and accepted tauren, the highborne that feed on a demon the past ten thousand years returning. Thats way to much for sucha short period of time. However this seems to be blizzards thing seeing as 300 years of IRL technology was developed in 10 years in wow.
*thats a relay short times for elfkin.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Finally did the Kairoz questline in Nagrand.
Chromie is goddam adorable.
Post by
Rankkor
Chromie is goddam adorable.
I know!!!! =D
OMG her new voice actress sounds soooooooooooooo cute.
Kawaii (*^_^*)
Makes me wanna pinch her wee lil cheeks.
*coughs*
Ejem, I mean.......... something, something, LOK'TAR OGAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOTTA FIND A WALL TO SMASH!!!!!! WITH MY FISTS!!!! Cuz I'm tough and stuff..........
>_>
<_<
(phew, close one)(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Stabhorn
So here's a question that's bothered me, and Im sure we've gone over it at some point. As stated in the War of the Ancients trilogy, the Dragon Aspects are absolutely nothing to the Old Gods. I don't remember if it was Krasus or Nozdormu who described the Aspects as slugs on a wall compared to them. It was also stated that if they were every freed, the entire might of the Burning Legion, including Sargeras, would fall on their knees and beg for the mercy of a quick death. BUT the Aspects were created as a countermeasure to the Old Gods, specifically the Hour of Twilight. (Which, shouldn't the Old Gods tampering in the War of the Ancients be viewed as an averted Hour of Twilight?) If this is the Aspects' true purpose, how come they're too weak to stop it? (Without THRALL or the Dragon Soul, Deathwing would have won.)
Another question, how come the Old Gods, during the WoA, simply couldn't change history a second time after Rhonin and Krasus began tampering with it? Also, was Neltharion corrupted by the Old Gods during the original WoA? If so, what were they doing differently this time around?
Post by
Rankkor
So here's a question that's bothered me, and Im sure we've gone over it at some point. As stated in the War of the Ancients trilogy, the Dragon Aspects are absolutely nothing to the Old Gods.
I don't remember them saying that. They were saying that against Sargeras they were like fleas.
It was also stated that if they were every freed, the entire might of the Burning Legion, including Sargeras, would fall on their knees and beg for the mercy of a quick death.
Yeah, they were highligthing that it took the combined might of the pantheon to imprison the old gods, and that if they stopped squabbling against each other and joined forces and obtained their freedom, a lone titan in the legion (Sargeras) would be unable to stop them.
BUT the Aspects were created as a countermeasure to the Old Gods, specifically the Hour of Twilight.
As a countermeassure to avoid the old gods escaping their prison. If they ever actually escape, we're screwed. All the times we've fought them, they're still weakened by the place where they were incarcerated. We've never faced a fully powered old god, and even the ones we defeated aren't truly dead, we just laid them comatose.
(shouldn't the Old Gods tampering in the War of the Ancients be viewed as an averted Hour of Twilight?)
Only if their tampering was a success and had allowed their early freedom. The Hour of Twilight was their moment of triumph in present azeroth, when they'd use the twilight dragonflight to bring about the end of the world, escape their confines, and then kill their pawns, deathwing and the twilight flight. Since their plans on the war of the ancients was stopped, their new plan Hour of Twilight was set in motion. And since the hour of twilight was stopped, its very likely they've set in motion a new plan that we'll end up seeing at some point in the future.
If this is the Aspects' true purpose, how come they're too weak to stop it?
Its not that they're too weak to stop it, its that their job was to prevent the escape of the old gods. Not fight the old gods themselves.
Another question, how come the Old Gods, during the WoA, simply couldn't change history a second time after Rhonin and Krasus began tampering with it?
There was a limit to what they could do, they can't directly actually do much, just influence the minds of creatures and individuals on azeroth to obey their will. When their puppets start disobeying, their plans fall apart. Deathwing was a very rogue puppet during WoA.
Also, was Neltharion corrupted by the Old Gods during the original WoA?
yep.
If so, what were they doing differently this time around?
Imprisoned Nozdormu, to avoid him fixing the changes they were making in the past. The funny thing is that he was still imprisoned again on another loop (Which is why we don't see him at all during vanilla, TBC, Wrath, and half of cata) and yet they never attempted their plan again at any of the other moments in history where there wasn't a force to stop them (like, before the elves taught humans magic. No horde, no alliance, nobody to stop them)
Post by
oneforthemoney
So here's a question that's bothered me, and Im sure we've gone over it at some point. As stated in the War of the Ancients trilogy, the Dragon Aspects are absolutely nothing to the Old Gods. I don't remember if it was Krasus or Nozdormu who described the Aspects as slugs on a wall compared to them. It was also stated that if they were every freed, the entire might of the Burning Legion, including Sargeras, would fall on their knees and beg for the mercy of a quick death. BUT the Aspects were created as a countermeasure to the Old Gods, specifically the Hour of Twilight. (Which, shouldn't the Old Gods tampering in the War of the Ancients be viewed as an averted Hour of Twilight?) If this is the Aspects' true purpose, how come they're too weak to stop it? (Without THRALL or the Dragon Soul, Deathwing would have won.)
The Aspects were meant more to stem the activity of the Old Gods and their workings on the surface. You have to remember the Titans thought the Old Gods could never escape their prisons, but they showed remarkable foresight by assuming they could still influence the world beyond, such as the Aqir, Faceless Ones, and cultists. To be fair, if Deathwing hadn't gone mad, the combined aspects most likely could have kept anything the old gods managed to squeeze out under wraps. When they got serious, they utterly smashed the Aqir and even trapped them and Cthun behind a wall.
Another question, how come the Old Gods, during the WoA, simply couldn't change history a second time after Rhonin and Krasus began tampering with it?
The Old Gods have been severely weakened by their imprisonment, to the point a rag tag bunch of dungeon divers can lobotomize their physical forms. Gathering that much power must have taken a lot out of them. It's not something you can do every day, and one they only just managed after distracting the Bronze with a civil war with the infinites, and trapping Nozdormu between timelines.
Post by
cephadex
How many characters in game actually have two living parents? (Not counting stuff like Thrall going back in time to meet his parents, although that was kind of endearing).
Post by
Rankkor
I don't think anyone does.
Best case scenario you can see a few dads, but mothers are apparently an endangered specie in azeroth because they are virtually unheard of save for very few and far-between cases like Alextrazsa and her many children.
I suppose the green and bronze dragons are the only ones who still have technically their parents alive, as both Nozdormu and Ysera are alive, and presumably all their respective consorts are as well. At no point I've seen any of them dying.
Though we see Nozdormu's prime consort being murdered by kairoz during one of the visions of time. That's........ concerning.
Hmmm........ Still, I think there's an actual human character that has both parents alive. I just can't remember who.
*
straining mind with effort
*
I GOT IT!!!!!!!!
Princess Tess Greymane, crown heir of the kingdom of Gilneas. She still has both of her parents alive, King Genn Greymane, and Queen Mia Greymane. Funny enough, Queen Mia is as of WoD the one and only human queen that has
not
been outlived by her husband, and
has
shown up in the game, if briefly.
Too bad both her and tess proceeded to disappear from the story (and the game) as soon as you finish the worgen starting zone. The only gilnean of any remote relevance was Genn himself and sometimes Crowley.
Post by
Stabhorn
Ysera's prime consort is dead too.
Post by
morginar
Doesn't Shandris Have parents? Granted Tyrande and Malfurion are not her biological parents as those are brutally murdered by the legion.
Then there is Alerias bastard child.
The only gilnean of any remote relevance was Genn himself and sometimes Crowley.
Stop lying, there is no relevant gilnean character, there is only King Varian and his statues.
Post by
cephadex
Well, Vereesa's husband died, too.
I think Arthas (and Calia) were the only people in the game with two parents, but then Arthas had to go and ruin that; actually, does it ever explicitly say that his mom was killed? And I guess Thrall's kids have two parents...
Stop lying, there is no relevant gilnean character, there is only King Varian and his statues.
I laughed irl XD
I suppose the green and bronze dragons are the only ones who still have technically their parents alive, as both Nozdormu and Ysera are alive, and presumably all their respective consorts are as well. At no point I've seen any of them dying.
Not been to the Sunken Temple of late, have you? Ysera's prime consort was my favorite trinket all through vanilla.
Post by
Stabhorn
Well, Vereesa's husband died, too.
I think Arthas (and Calia) were the only people in the game with two parents, but then Arthas had to go and ruin that; actually, does it ever explicitly say that his mom was killed?
It doesn't. She just vanished mysteriously, along with his sister if memory serves.
Post by
cephadex
Yeah, though I always sort of got the impression that his sister was an afterthought to the story... sort of the same with his mom, though.
But not Invincible, that horse matters.
Post by
Rankkor
I suppose the green and bronze dragons are the only ones who still have technically their parents alive, as both Nozdormu and Ysera are alive, and presumably all their respective consorts are as well. At no point I've seen any of them dying.
Not been to the Sunken Temple of late, have you? Ysera's
prime
consort was my favorite trinket all through vanilla.
Prime
being the key word. She had more than one I think. Are you sure they're all dead? (I'm not)
Well, Vereesa's husband died, too.
He was never a king of the alliance.
I think Arthas (and Calia) were the only people in the game with two parents, but then Arthas had to go and ruin that; actually, does it ever explicitly say that his mom was killed?
I don't think she was killed, but seeing as she was never seen nor even
mentioned
whatsoever, I always assumed she succumbed to the common "death-by-childbirth" syndrome most royal moms get in fantasy settings (Seriously, its staggering the number of moms that die giving birth in most fantasy works)
And I guess Thrall's kids have two parents...
Ohh yeah, technically they count. I'm reluctant to count them because they're babies, so they're basically like furniture in this game. Kinda like how Moira's child is nothing more than a plot device. Doesn't even have a name, or relevance to the plot whatsoever.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Nulgar
Kinda like how Moira's child is nothing more than a plot device. Doesn't even have a name, or relevance to the plot whatsoever.
Ahum.
Ok, same as his father, but still.
Post by
cephadex
Ahum.
Ok, same as his father, but still.
You know, I'm not a big fan of kids, but that's freaking adorable.
Prime
being the key word. She had more than one I think. Are you sure they're all dead? (I'm not)
well I always thought it would be hot if she had married both Eranikus and Itharius, but she didn't, I guess the others (if any) weren't mentioned.
He was never a king of the alliance.
Am I missing something? When did we start limiting this to people who were kings/leaders?
I don't think she was killed, but seeing as she was never seen nor even
mentioned
whatsoever, I always assumed she succumbed to the common "death-by-childbirth" syndrome most royal moms get in fantasy settings (Seriously, its staggering the number of moms that die giving birth in most fantasy works)
Well she was included in
Arthas: Rise of the Lich King
, but I don't blame you for not remembering or reading that atrocity.
And I guess Thrall's kids have two parents...
Ohh yeah, technically they count. I'm reluctant to count them because they're babies, so they're basically like furniture in this game. Kinda like how Moira's child is nothing more than a plot device. Doesn't even have a name, or relevance to the plot whatsoever.
You're right in that they don't really matter (and honestly neither does Aggra), but I can't even think of other
babies
in-game who have two parents (then again, I suppose not too many characters are shown having kids).
Post by
Rankkor
So, there's not gonna be any Iron Citadel after all, just good ol' Hellfire Citadel once more.
This is the current list of bosses and I wanted to make a quick footnote.
Hellfire Assault
Iron Reaver
Hellfire High Council
Kormrok
Kilrogg Deadeye
Gorefiend
Shadow-Lord Iskar
Fel Lord Zakuun
Xhul'horac
Socrethar the Eternal
Tyrant Velhari
Mannoroth
Archimonde
I see no gul'dan in there, nor Grom. This to me means 1 out of 3 possibilities.
1: this isn't the final raid tier.
2: They're killed in the legendary quest.
3: Neither of them die, Gul'dan is left as a bad-guy to chase to the next expansion ala garrosh/lich king, and Grom doesn't die, and gets redeemed. What? don't tell me you weren't thinking it, the events of 6.1 gave me that
deja vu
feeling I get when a certain bad guy
isn't
gonna get killed. Its further cemented by Grom being the only warlord so far to
NOT
behave like a machiavellic saturday morning cartoon villain, like blackhand, ner'zhul, kil'rogg, Azuka, Gul'dan, Garrosh or Bladefist.
I'm not saying he's a saint, or anything close to it, but he's
waaaaay
more toned down than the other orcs when it comes to being evil.
The rest of the iron horde basically boils down to "i'm so evil I refuse to eat boiled eggs unless the chicken who laid it is forced to watch me eating it"(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
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