General Lore Discussions

Post by oneforthemoney

The orcs managed peace NOT due to being led by specifically a human-raised orc (Thrall) but because the one leading them was not a warmonger. If Saurfang had been warchief of the horde, the orcs would had been just as peaceful. If Eitrigg had led the horde as warchief they would had still been peaceful.

Yes, but what I mean is the only thing that seems to unite the orcs as a whole is violence. Thrall managed it by freeing the orcs and going off to fight the Alliance/Legion, Garrosh kept it together by bull rushing the Alliance, and Grom/Gul'dan/assorted warchiefs managed by turning them into a war mongering juggernaut. I think the major reason the orcs you mentioned did not become leaders was because they lacked both the charisma (fan induced not applicable) and the drive to unite or lead more than only their clans.

Wouldn't you say though that, in real life, any nation or empire which had ever been a world power had acted as conquerors? I'm not sure if it's to do with not being civil or rational, after all, conquering does require strategy. I think as far as the orcs are concerned, it's not the conquering that bothers me so much as the portrayal of them as being irrational, dishonorable and heartless fools who go about it with no reason or values.

Sort of. The problem with the orcs though is that their conquests are very rarely focused on anything in particular. They just seem to want to fight and go to war. I still don't understand just what it is they seek to gain by conquering Draenor. They poured into Azeroth for food, but once they arrived basically just ran rampant over everything. They didn't even really have a currency system to warrant looting or territory gains. I just fail to see what their purpose is aside from 'kill stuff'. At least the first time they had the excuse of demon blood making them crazy.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Rankkor

Yes, but what I mean is the only thing that seems to unite the orcs as a whole is violence.

False.

Thrall managed it by freeing the orcs and going off to fight the Alliance/Legion

And this is why.

Thrall freed the orcs, lots of orcs from several different clans, long since having lost their clan identity, they rallied under one banner once again, and it WASN'T to conquer someone else's land, or to annihilate a single enemy.

True they fought the legion, but that was simply because they arrived, and wanted to enslave the orcs again, so they fought back.

True they fought the alliance (Such as when Admiral Proudmoore hit Razor Hill) but again, they were fighting back aggressors who hit them first.

They weren't warmongers, and they weren't bullies, they wanted a land to settle, they chose one that was unoccupied, and they only fought when attacked first. Even on ashenvale, it was the night elves who hit them first (They had their reasons, trees being sacred to them and all) but still, the orcs didn't made the first violent move against the sentinels, it was the sentinels who did it against the orcs (and the alliance) first.

This was a period of time where the clans united, for the single purpose of being free, and living a life elsewhere away from war. If they had wanted a fight, they would've remained in the eastern kingdoms and tried to pry lands from the alliance. Instead, they packed up and left.

Garrosh kept it together by bull rushing the Alliance

There was nothing to keep together here, the horde was fine when garrosh rose to power. They were frustrated because the alliance renewed their aggression against them, and Thrall was seeking diplomatic solutions rather than answer violence with more violence. An understandable stance, but to say (or imply) that the horde was on the brink of rebellion and wanting to depose Thrall would be a HUGE exaggeration.

I think the major reason the orcs you mentioned did not become leaders was because they lacked both the charisma (fan induced not applicable) and the drive to unite or lead more than only their clans.

No, the reason they never became leaders was because they refused the position. They both deferred to Thrall since he was the one who broke the orcs out of their lethargy, and also because as second-war veterans, they still had a lot of guilt in them as stated by saurfang on Warsong Hold. Notice how today, according to the devs, the official new Chieftain of the orcs is Saurfang. Not Thrall. The only reason he accepted now, was......... actually they've never bothered to explain that one. Just one more string on their sloppy storytelling lately.

Wouldn't you say though that, in real life, any nation or empire which had ever been a world power had acted as conquerors?

To a degree. The problem arises when you already have a land of your own, and you seek to needlessly expand it by taking the lands of others by force. After all, the human nations were conquerors too. Don't think they were all born into those kingdoms, they were initially a single tribe that spread to the 4 corners of azeroth and established their settlements by taking it from the local owners, namely the trolls.

The orcs were fine in Durotar, except for the lack of resources, which the rest of the world denied them diplomatically. On the theramoore summit, do remember that it was the horde that was willing to buy what they needed from the alliance, instead of taking it by force, and it was the alliance (namely a bone-headed chin-block king) who backed away from the deal, for no real reason. After all, he KNOWS that the attack on the summit was orchestrated by the twilight hammer (his best agent, Valeera, learned the truth, and informed him). Why not continue the negotiations? because he said "no more negotiating".

Sort of. The problem with the orcs though is that their conquests are very rarely focused on anything in particular.

False. As explained above, they have a clear goal: Resources. They don't have them in Durotar, they tried to get them diplomatically, and it failed. Now they're trying to get them by force. Garrosh took that as an excuse to escalate the situation, and go from "we need resources" to "Why settle for resources when we can also take their lands, take their people, make them slaves, and take the world". It was a goal twisted by a tyrant with a poor moral compass.

Same as the goal of the original Old Horde, a focused goal of "We must defend our lives against the Draenei who are plotting to exterminate us" (Which was of course a lie told to them by Kil'jaeden masquerading as the very ancestors the orcs worship) to mindless bloodlust-driven slaughter to sate their thirst for violence, induced by the demon blood drinking.

I still don't understand just what it is they seek to gain by conquering Draenor.They poured into Azeroth for food, but once they arrived basically just ran rampant over everything. They didn't even really have a currency system to warrant looting or territory gains. I just fail to see what their purpose is aside from 'kill stuff'.

Who? the iron horde? They had no reason to come here. They came here because they were coaxed into doing so by someone else.. The idea of conquering territories was an alien concept to them until it was introduced to them by a stranger. Which is what I've been saying, the orcs are not inherently warmongers unless pushed into it by a specific individual, and they're not the only race that's fallen into that. Should I remind everyone of when Deathwing had all the kings of the alliance dancing on his lap? Or when Queen Azshara had most of the night elves doing horrible things in her name?

That doesn't make the humans or the night elves warmongers. It makes them people manipulated into horrible deeds by horrible individuals.

The problem lies with the writers, who are having such a lack of creativity that they can't think of any other story than orcs going bad, then good, then bad again, then good again.

The orcs managed peace NOT due to being led by specifically a human-raised orc (Thrall) but because the one leading them was not a warmonger. If Saurfang had been warchief of the horde, the orcs would had been just as peaceful. If Eitrigg had led the horde as warchief they would had still been peaceful.Not completely...again: Look at the Orcs who flocked to the ideals that Garrosh had brought about, and not just young impressionable ones either.

I saw them. And you know what? they were the minority. A blue poster confirmed it. Even though the game did a poor job at SHOWING this stuff, most orcs opposed Garrosh's warmongering tactics, and only a minority sided with him when the rebellion began in full stride. Because the orcs are not inherent warmongers.

We've also seen that the Orcs were not the peaceful group that seems to get trotted out: Warrior Born, Rise of the Horde and others show that some clans treated others with contempt and hate, or looked down on them for being weak(the problem is that all of that came from Frostwolf viewpoint; I'm wishing for a story about the Blackrocks or the Laughing Skulls told to us from the original time line). A strong firm hand went a long way to ruling an old orc clan after all.

*sighs*

I'm not arguing that the orcs were peaceful. The tauren were peaceful. The very concept of "fighting back" was completely foreign to them until the horde introduced it to them. Up until that point they were being driven to extiction by the centaurs, and their only solution was to live like nomads, always on the run trying to avoid their sworn enemies. It was the orcs who convinced them to turn around and actually fight back.

Its clear that the orcs are a warrior society, and they love a good fight. Hell, their rite of adulthood doesn't consist of a peaceful ceremony like the bar mitzvahs, they had to hunt an animal, kill it, and smear their blood on their face, in the case of the frostwolves, other clans had equally violent adulthood rites.

But there's a difference between being a warrior society built on violence, and being a warmonger pack of bullies who want nothing more than killing for the fun of killing. The former is what the orcs used to be before the legion corrupted them, and what they briefly were once again from Warcraft 3 till the G-cancer started to do metastasis on the body of the horde (save for certain individuals). The latter is what the orcs became when the legion meddled, and when the cancer was fully spread post-WOTLK, and the principles and goals of the horde were twisted from "Surviving in a world that would see us dead" to "Taking everything from everyone, and claiming the world for ourselves!".

Post by morginar

Garrosh kept it together by bull rushing the Alliance

Garrosh didn't keep it together when he became warchief. If you remember the troll starting area you see how well garrosh was with other races. (You could add undead as he wasn't one to like necromancy/warlocks)

His MoP racism wasn't new, he always favor orc warrior and war (for fun, look at his reaction to nelf in shattering.)

Post by cephadex

Sort of. The problem with the orcs though is that their conquests are very rarely focused on anything in particular. They just seem to want to fight and go to war. I still don't understand just what it is they seek to gain by conquering Draenor. They poured into Azeroth for food, but once they arrived basically just ran rampant over everything. They didn't even really have a currency system to warrant looting or territory gains. I just fail to see what their purpose is aside from 'kill stuff'. At least the first time they had the excuse of demon blood making them crazy.

My point is that, in real life, nations conquer not "just to the extent that they need something to survive"; any nation that was ever a world power had conquered for the sake of owning as much of the world as possible (ex, "The sun never sets on the British Empire" - they didn't conquer half the globe because they needed it, and neither did the Roman Empire). Therefore, in-game, I don't think the orcs would necessarily have needed a reason to conquer all of Draenor, etc, other than as a show or power. Mind, I'm not expressing an opinion as to whether or not I agree with this or think it's right, but I don't think it'd be unrealistic in that regard.

His MoP racism wasn't new, he always favor orc warrior and war (for fun, look at his reaction to nelf in shattering.)

Again, not that I think there's any point in defending the way Garrosh was written in MoP and beyond, but NEs are just asking for it; I don't think it's physically possible to be an orc and not want to kick their behinds, they're like the geeky kid at school who goes far out of his way to be stuffed into a locker. I think even the NEs are aware of their high potential for having their behinds kicked, they'd probably be very confused if an orc hadn't done so, it's like a law of nature.

Either way, since the original appeal of WC was based in a sort of team spirit where the game wouldn't work unless you were out to get the opposing faction, I think an idea of 'accepting and loving every member of every faction' waters that down and sucks all the fun out of it. Calling it racism also turns it from a sort of fun team spirit into something supposedly ugly, but I think that's also largely the writers' fault.

Post by matheus314

They were frustrated because the alliance renewed their aggression against them (...)
Oh, c'mon, you can't be serious about this...

Post by morginar

Again, not that I think there's any point in defending the way Garrosh was written in MoP and beyond, but NEs are just asking for it; I don't think it's physically possible to be an orc and not want to kick their behinds, they're like the geeky kid at school who goes far out of his way to be stuffed into a locker. I think even the NEs are aware of their high potential for having their behinds kicked, they'd probably be very confused if an orc hadn't done so, it's like a law of nature.

Well now, did orc need ashenvale lumber? No, they did not, there are other places that has trees, but orc not want to beg, trade and use diplomacy, orc strong and take what he wants! And orc always wanted a fight anyway.

And to follow up with some local news for a comparison, nations can freeze trade with other nations due to various reasons. Have you heard of Venezuela? USA stoped the trade there.

Similar here, and it would be due to the warsong who go for warfare to get lumber even during thralls trading with elf. It was said and told in Shattering that elf don't want to punish orc civilians. Those where simply in crossfire. Elf are not this unsympathetic as said by wise tauren and wise tauren even gets some diplomacy done and trade to restart. But no wait, ambush!

What thrall should have done sooner is to deal with the warsong and hammer some (empty) orc skulls until they learn. Thrall overlooking it was that caused this conflict. And Garrosh simply followed the ideals of his fellow warsong.

Post by cephadex

You can't seriously be suggesting that on seeing Ashenvale with its moonwells or what have you, the orcs might have done anything but completely torn it apart? That's like implying that when faced with a nice fat turkey, a bear should instead opt for the salad. I'm not even saying this from a pro-orc perspective (which I very much have), but even if I were playing the NEs for some ungodly reason I would expect that the orcs would completely tear Ashenvale apart. Grom was doing them a service, let's be serious for a moment. When I first played WC3 and saw that the NEs didn't even harvest their trees but instead had wisps circling around them, I was like...

And they also enchanted their goldmine instead of mining it, what's the name of that fat kid on the Simpsons who's always like "Lads, shall we partake in this joyous activity" or whatever, like he's just begging the bullies to smack him up... that's Ashenvale when faced with the orcs.

Post by Rankkor

They were frustrated because the alliance renewed their aggression against them (...)
Oh, c'mon, you can't be serious about this...

Yes I am. It was the alliance who broke the tenuous peace treaty at the end of WOTLK.

Both in the orc starting zone, Troll starting zone, and in North Barrens, several quest givers show you that the alliance attacked the horde in all of these places BEFORE the shattering took place. While a peace treaty was still in place. That's not even mentioning their attack on Thrall, which also happened literally right after the shattering took place (Which means they were planning that for god knows how long). That means before the forsaken attacked gilneas, before garrosh sent the magnataurs to ashenvale, before everything else. Prior to all of that, the alliance attacked the horde.

Why on earth would they do that (The book Stormrage, based after WOTLK established that both sides had made a tenuous peace after the defeat of the Lich King) is unknown, its never addressed in the game.

Its speculated that they did that in retaliation for the attack on the sentinels in Ashevale, which was done by agents of the twilight hammer posing as Horde Soldiers. These guys killed those sentinels, skinned them, and carved the horde symbol into them. This was covered on the book "The Shattering", and while the horde eventually found out that it was the twilight hammer behind it (namely Hamuul did, after barely surviving an ambush that killed even more delegates from Darnassus to further blame the horde) by then Garrosh was appointed Warchief, the alliance made their move, and garrosh replied with massive total war.

It only snowballed from there.

Have you heard of Venezuela? USA stoped the trade there.

As a venezuelan, I'm painfully aware of this. Its made life here........ difficult. To put it mildly.

You can't seriously be suggesting that on seeing Ashenvale with its moonwells or what have you, the orcs might have done anything but completely torn it apart?

Yes I can. The orcs are not brutes. They're taking the lumber by force, because, once more, they tried to negotiate for it peacefully and the alliance refused.

Note that the blood elves treat their forests with the same reverence as the night elves do, but the orcs don't immediately go all bully mode and roar "ME SMASH NERDS!!!!!!!!" on them. Why? because the elves are allies of the orcs, they trade each other for supplies, troops, and resources. Likewise, the Tauren are probably the biggest tree-huggers on azeroth, giving the night elves a run for their money on that department. Doesn't mean the orcs feel compelled to burn every single forested area inhabited by a Tauren.

The orcs are not compelled to beat another race just because. Not unless someone forces them to (Which applies to any race, any race can do some truly horrible things if the wrong person is in charge. Look at the night elves with Azshara). They ARE compelled to wage war on a race that attacks them, and much like the trolls, or the elves, they don't let go of grudges easily.

Orcs CAN be diplomatic, and no, this is not due to Thrall, all orcs can be diplomatic. Doomhammer didn't bullied the trolls or the goblins to join his horde, he used diplomacy for it. Negotiation. Bargain.

That's like implying that when faced with a nice fat turkey, a bear should instead opt for the salad.

I don't like the implication that the orcs are animals. A more fitting comparison would be "if a starving man is faced with a live wild hog, or a merchant selling him a juicy cooked pork leg, he should instead go and hunt the wild hog". If there is a way to obtain a resource through negotiation rather than brute force, the orcs CAN (and have) used the former, and only resort to the latter when peaceful ways fail.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

Post by Rankkor

What? You mean a nation can refuse to trade with another? How dare they!

Hey, I'm just saying, if a starving man has no food, he'll try to buy it. IF NOBODY wants to sell it to them, then should it be a surprise that he'd try to take food by force?

I'm just saying that this whole thing could had been avoided if the alliance was open to negotiations, but they weren't and for no good reason either. Its not like the horde was asking for charity, they were willing to pay for the resources, and lots of lives could had been spared, but they said no just for the hell of it.

Clearly if peace failed to get the results we want, the only logical course of action is to take it by force.

Sounds harsh, but that's how it works. Just try to put yourself into that situation. Imagine that you have a job, and you have an income, but no matter what store you go to, EVERYONE refuses to sell you anything because of your ethnicity. What would you honestly do? just roll over and die of starvation? or try to live by taking by force what nobody else will give you the civilized and diplomatic way.

Garrosh was the one that made it impossible to fix

I'm not denying that, I'm just saying, it was the alliance who cast the first stone. Thrall would have tried to solve the situation peacefully (we'll never know if he would have succeeded), but since garrosh was the one in charge, he just responded to aggression with more aggression, and it just snowballed from there into a total war of annihilation that only harmed everyone in the long run.

The post was in response to matheus314 who was disbelieving my claim that it was the alliance who attacked first. They did. They were lied to and tricked to by the twilight hammer in order to do that, but the point is, they did.

Much like how the orcs were lied to, and tricked to in order to attack the draenei by kil'jaeden, and the iron horde was lied to and tricked to in order to attack azeroth by garrosh. See how we're not so different after all?

With the right amount of deception, trickery, and manipulation ANYONE can be a warmonger. Its not an inherent orc thing.

Post by oneforthemoney

With the right amount of deception, trickery, and manipulation ANYONE can be a warmonger. Its not an inherent orc thing.

Oh, I didn't mean the orcs are naturally war mongers. Rather, I meant that their culture and their clannishness really makes them more likely for it, and when brought together, means they are much more likely to bring out the worst of that. Their society trains warriors, not farmers. Give a farmer a spear and he'll fight, if poorly. A knight is more than just a guy with armour and a sword. But warriors need to fight. Otherwise what are they?

Which may explain why the orcs still have colosseum fights, actually.

What? You mean a nation can refuse to trade with another? How dare they!

Hey, I'm just saying, if a starving man has no food, he'll try to buy it. IF NOBODY wants to sell it to them, then should it be a surprise that he'd try to take food by force?

I'm just saying that this whole thing could had been avoided if the alliance was open to negotiations, but they weren't and for no good reason either. Its not like the horde was asking for charity, they were willing to pay for the resources, and lots of lives could had been spared, but they said no just for the hell of it.

Not really. For one, the night elves see their trees as sacred. Secondly, the Horde is still very much a large threat to the Alliance militarily and, as was shown, there were parts of them which very much wanted another war. So from a strategic viewpoint, it was prudent not to give them these things and make them stronger for free. Look at the Forsaken? They cannot procreate without killing things. It's a bit of a paradox. Even if you want to deal with one, like the tauren, you're dealing with Horde as a bulk, and there are...issues in that. I doubt the night elves would have had much issue with trading with the tauren personally.

But really, the problem I have with that argument is that the orcs weren't starving. It was about the lumber, the land, the access to those resources. The blood elves have ample forest, but I suppose they were too far away or something. Sure the Alliance had it, but that doesn't mean that they are obligated to share if they didn't want to. To say they brought the war on themselves for that is to blame the victim. It's give me what I want because you know I will take it anyway.

Post by Adamsm

Though, also from the Shattering, Jaina asked Thrall to go for the more peaceful route following the Twiligt Hammer ambush...and he said no.
After this, Jaina secretly met with Warchief Thrall to garner an explanation for this blatant violation of their peace treaty agreement. Thrall explained that he did not authorize this attack and he has been given demands by King Varian to condemn the attack publicly, turn in all violators over to the Alliance for justice, and to show good faith that the Horde was willing to continue peaceful relations with the Alliance. Thrall was only willing to declare his intention to continue honoring the peace treaty but refused to publicly condemn the attack as rebuking the pragmatism of staying alive, even with violent measures which he disliked, when the Alliance purposely cut off all trade with them and are causing them much suffering would be too cruel an attack on his people's identity. Nor was he willing to send violators over to the Alliance for judgment. Though Jaina understood the position Thrall was in, she none the less urged Thrall to find a way to meet the Alliance's demands as his noncooperation was only pushing the Alliance and Horde to all out war.And Garrosh was not yet in charge when that happened. After all, if you want peace, let's not hand over the violators for justice or anything /rolleyes

I still think that was on of the stupidest things out of that book, beside the name change crap; Thrall had a way to stop the aggression and he said nope, not happening.

Post by Rankkor

Secondly, the Horde is still very much a large threat to the Alliance militarily and, as was shown, there were parts of them which very much wanted another war. So from a strategic viewpoint, it was prudent not to give them these things and make them stronger for free.

How can it be free if the horde was willing to PAY for these resources? its not like they're giving charity, they're trading. They give something to the horde, and the horde gives something back in return. Durotar has other resources in abundance (like copper) that are scarce in several alliance lands.

Also, regarding the horde being a large threat to the alliance militarily, that's even more of a reason to engage in trade with them. Make the other side co-dependent on you financially and you reduce the chance of war. Its why China and the US are very unwilling to fight each other, even if they don't really like one another that much. They would both lose more than they would gain even if either of them managed to win the contest.

By refusing trade however, they're very much forcing the hand of the other side to act.

But really, the problem I have with that argument is that the orcs weren't starving. It was about the lumber, the land, the access to those resources.

Lumber is needed for a lot of things, not the least of which is to start fires. This is an age prior to people having kitchens with gas and electricity, we're talking pseudo-medieval times here, where you needed timber to get a fire going to cook your meals. Sure you can also use coal, but would you REALLY smoke yourself and your family every time you wanna cook a meal? there weren't fertile lands to grow vegetables, nor that much game to hunt in either the barrens or durotar, hence why they needed to trade to secure these things.

Sure the Alliance had it, but that doesn't mean that they are obligated to share if they didn't want to.

But that's the thing, this world belongs every bit as much to the orcs as it does to the other races of the world. They have as much a right to live as anyone else. The alliance not only was determined to not trade with the orcs, but also to not let the orcs take the lumber from the night elves. That's basically like an economic embargo, hoping that the orcs would die out from within their nation.

To say they brought the war on themselves for that is to blame the victim.

I'm not saying that they brought the war on themselves. I'm saying that the horde offered an easy way out of the war that would had benefited both sides greatly. And the alliance refused for extremely petty reasons. This was all because King Chin saw garona on the attack in the summit. He let a personal issue interfere with the good of not just his people, but the rest of the alliance as a whole. I'm extremely pissed off that to this day NOBODY has called out Varian for doing that, but EVERYBODY nit-picks on every single bad call made by Thrall.

There was a simple solution to this problem, and it was refused for very weak reasons. I'm gonna repeat it once again, the orcs weren't demanding these resources to be given for free, they were willing to trade for them. To give something in return. Hell, since the alliance had the upper hand in that negotiating table, they could had been the ones to set the prices too.

It's give me what I want because you know I will take it anyway.

*sighs*

Again with that word. Dude, the horde weren't demanding something for nothing. They were willing to TRADE for these resources. You are familiar with the concept of trading right? it means I give you something, and you give me something back.

The orcs left the eastern kingdoms to avoid another war with the alliance. They settled on a land that was uninhabited, rather than purposefully drive out another civilization. They then found out that the land they settled was uninhabited because it was barren in most resources. They tried to take those resources from a different source. The alliance interfered with that operation. The horde tried then to buy those resources from the alliance in exchange for a total cease of hostilities, and the alliance refused.

Why are the orcs being painted as the bad guys for this? Sure the elven forests are sacred and yadda-yadda, but the forests of elwynn are not, and the alliance can afford to sell extra lumber for profits, which would had doubtlessly allow them to strengthen their own military to match the horde should they get any ideas. Furthermore, by making the alliance a trading partner with the horde, it would greatly diminish the risk of war, as the horde would have very little to gain and a lot to lose by upsetting the already stable status quo.

At the very least, the horde tried, several times mind you, to find alternate ways to avoid the carnage (First by fleeing the eastern kingdoms, then by trying to barter for the supplies rather than take them by force), whereas as far as the alliance is concerned, their only methods of dealing with the horde have been either total extermination (Such as Admiral Proudmoore) or total incarceration (Concentration Camps).

Sooner or later, they have to admit that the orcs belong in azeroth every bit as much as every other race, and they (the alliance) have no right to deny them their right to live in this world. This means SOMEONE has to make concessions to avoid confrontations. The horde already has made a lot of them, but the alliance refuse to make even the tiniest of ones based on nothing more than grudges and paranoia.

its a self-fulfilling prophecy, where they refuse to help the horde even a little bit out of fear of reprisal, and this in turn, triggers reprisal.

Though, also from the Shattering, Jaina asked Thrall to go for the more peaceful route following the Twiligt Hammer ambush...and he said no.

And Garrosh was not yet in charge when that happened. After all, if you want peace, let's not hand over the violators for justice or anything /rolleyes

I still think that was on of the stupidest things out of that book, beside the name change crap; Thrall had a way to stop the aggression and he said nope, not happening.

This is another thing that upsets me about you bro', That was indeed a BIG screw up by Thrall, make no mistake about that. But you know what? EVERYONE has called out thrall about that. Everyone has given him well deserved crap about that colossal F-up.

Meanwhile, Varian made an equally BIG screw up on the theramoore summit by acting like a brat, and to this day, not a single soul has berated him about it. We're supposed to just be on his side.

And yet, you call Thrall a mary sue.

Thrall has made a lot of mistakes, and every single time they happen, people DO call him out. Unlike varian who's made just as many mistakes but everyone hails him as the next jesus.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

Lumber is needed for a lot of things, not the least of which is to start fires. This is an age prior to people having kitchens with gas and electricity, we're talking pseudo-medieval times here, where you needed timber to get a fire going to cook your meals. Sure you can also use coal, but would you REALLY smoke yourself and your family every time you wanna cook a meal?

Really Rank? Really? You say that when we have airships and robot armour?

But that's the thing, this world belongs every bit as much to the orcs as it does to the other races of the world. They have as much a right to live as anyone else. The alliance not only was determined to not trade with the orcs, but also to not let the orcs take the lumber from the night elves. That's basically like an economic embargo, hoping that the orcs would die out from within their nation.

Well, not exactly. They're literal aliens, and their arrival was not at all peaceful. It's not that they don't have a right to live, they do, but their sudden presence means that a lot of concessions need to be made for that exact reason, so I can understand why there is difficulty there.

Again with that word. Dude, the horde weren't demanding something for nothing.

I understand your confusion, but by 'give' I meant the trade rights in addition to the resources. I should have expressed that better.

Although on that topic, I do have to wonder about how cut off the orcs really are. Do the blood elves not have massive forests? The forsaken don't use theirs aside from poisoning the damn things. Why not use those?

Simple. Availability. Ashenvale is close, Eastern Kingdoms is not (Or Blizzard forgot...). As for the accepting the Horde or not, really, it needs time. We have to remember there is barely a generation separating the Horde from the demon blood infused war machine and the people they ran rampant over, and even then, Garrosh did nothing to dispel this idea. It's no surprise people are going to begrudge them these things. The only one who has committed worse genocide than the old Horde is the Lich King, and the Forsaken, part of the Horde, are doing their best to make them look terrible.

The Horde is not all to blame. Circumstances are, for the most part, but so aggressive a stance does nothing for them either. Really, there's only two ways for it to be resolved. The Horde breaks up, the Alliance breaks up, and everyone can go ahead and hate each other individually.

Politics!

This is another thing that upsets me about you bro', That was indeed a BIG screw up by Thrall, make no mistake about that. But you know what? EVERYONE has called out thrall about that. Everyone has given him well deserved crap about that colossal F-up.

Meanwhile, Varian made an equally BIG screw up on the theramoore summit by acting like a brat, and to this day, not a single soul has berated him about it. We're supposed to just be on his side.

Eh. The Theramore summit wasn't that bad in comparison. Negotiations broke down, but they didn't lead to a war, and Garrosh being equally garrulous did not help considering that Varian just escaped being a slave to the orcs, and saw his former owner at that very negotiation. And Anduin did call his father out on that. The thing about the summit was there was one reasonable and one unreasonable person for each side.

Post by Adamsm

I don't call Thrall a Sue; that would imply I somehow care about him. I'm just sick and $%^&ing tired of the character because lately all he's done is pull off bigger and bigger miracles and he's just ridiculous.

I don't recall anyone calling Thrall out for his actions in the Shattering; the most that happened was Jaina getting picky and Varian getting angry. You enjoy talking about the Theramore summit and pretending that no one called Varian to task...but he was; his son and Jaina both called him out on his stupidity. But Thrall can insult the king of the Stormwind and walk away....and no one says boo.

Post by cephadex

You can't seriously be suggesting that on seeing Ashenvale with its moonwells or what have you, the orcs might have done anything but completely torn it apart?

Yes I can. The orcs are not brutes. They're taking the lumber by force, because, once more, they tried to negotiate for it peacefully and the alliance refused.

Note that the blood elves treat their forests with the same reverence as the night elves do, but the orcs don't immediately go all bully mode and roar "ME SMASH NERDS!" on them. Why? because the elves are allies of the orcs, they trade each other for supplies, troops, and resources. Likewise, the Tauren are probably the biggest tree-huggers on azeroth, giving the night elves a run for their money on that department. Doesn't mean the orcs feel compelled to burn every single forested area inhabited by a Tauren.

The orcs are not compelled to beat another race just because. Not unless someone forces them to (Which applies to any race, any race can do some truly horrible things if the wrong person is in charge. Look at the night elves with Azshara). They ARE compelled to wage war on a race that attacks them, and much like the trolls, or the elves, they don't let go of grudges easily.

Orcs CAN be diplomatic, and no, this is not due to Thrall, all orcs can be diplomatic. Doomhammer didn't bullied the trolls or the goblins to join his horde, he used diplomacy for it. Negotiation. Bargain.

It's not even a matter of whether or not they can be diplomatic. I mean, the NEs had it coming. And I found the bit of the story very endearing when Lor'themar first wrote to Thrall to appeal to him for an alliance. I have this mental image of him staying up late trying to learn Orcish so as not to insult the orcs by trying to speak to them in Common. The entire notion of the BEs trying to adjust to an orcish culture is incredibly sweet to me. It's true they had their trees or whatever, but they don't have the same overly-hippy love of nature the NEs had, I liked when then highborne waged arcane storms all through Ashenvale after magic was first prohibited there.

Can you honestly watch Malfurion in WC3 when he was like "I had best go commune with the trees to as hear what they have to say about this!" and not want to beat him up? I think that's pretty much code for "please beat me up, I badly need it" in Darnassian.

I don't like the implication that the orcs are animals.

I think you're missing the point; people can be likened to animals in a positive way, like how the Japanese have gods who are animal spirits. But even that misses the point, the orcs just have a very, very high potential to kick , and the NEs have pretty much the highest potential of anything in this game to have their kicked. It's like a law of nature, it can't not happen.

I don't call Thrall a Sue; that would imply I somehow care about him. I'm just sick and $%^&ing tired of the character because lately all he's done is pull off bigger and bigger miracles and he's just ridiculous.

This I completely agree with.

But Thrall can insult the king of the Stormwind and walk away....and no one says boo.

When did Thrall insult Varian? That's actually pretty cool. I'd really like to see those two duke it out one day.

Post by Adamsm

At the end of the summit; Thrall insulted him and left and not a person said a single thing about it.

Also, I think I know my biggest problem with Thrall: He's a stagnant character. He doesn't grow or have to work to be 'better' he just is. Say what you will but Capt Chin has had growth over the last few expansions and isn't the roid head he was when he first came back.

Post by cephadex

I guess I'll have to look that up, to me that actually reflects well on Thrall, and even better if no one said anything about it. Thrall bugs me for a lot of reasons, but it's not even just him; I think it's the entire outlook that the goal of the story is peace and diplomacy between the factions.

I think the appeal in Warcraft in the first place was that it was about war; this wasn't perceived as something sinister like racism or real heartlessness, it was more like team spirit. You had loyalty to those on your team, and wanted to bring down the opposite team-- this made the game fun.

But it was like eventually Bliz, themselves, had got sidetracked and now the general attitude you see amongst WC fans is that conflict is "childish" and that the goal is "civilized diplomacy." That just isn't as much fun to play. And Thrall has become the embodiment of that, he's really a human for all intents and purposes; everything that had been uniquely orcish had become perceived as bad, and I think they really drove this home in WoD, where we presumably side with Thrall against the legendary orc leaders. I didn't even finish the storyline in Nagrand (so maybe I'm not in a position to talk, but I know what happens) because I couldn't stomach the constant banter about how evil the Iron Horde was, and all the bad things they did-- it just felt so simplistic and trite.

At least Thrall insulted Varian, that's pretty much all he has going for him right now imho, and how pissed at him he seemed at the SoO ending cinematic. Other than that, as far as attitude is concerned, he seems to me on the verge of forming some sort of alliance with Stormwind. That might seem good from a perspective of peace being a good thing, but that's no fun in a game called Warcraft.

Post by Rankkor

But Thrall can insult the king of the Stormwind and walk away....and no one says boo.

Really dude? really? Thrall said "I shouldn't had expected any better from a human". This right after Varian straight up attacked him with his weapon and called him the worst insult one can ever call an orc "Coward". And then there were his baseless accusations of treachery (And yes, I say baseless because garona or not, the horde members of the delegation were attacked too, and he knew it, he was there. Neither side was wearing uniforms or emblems of the alliance or horde, meaning there was no conclusive evidence of foul play for either side to suspect the other)

Really Rank? Really? You say that when we have airships and robot armour?

Yes, really. There is a big dichotomy regarding applications of technology in azeroth. We have fairly medieval stuff going on (swords, spears, bows, catapults, latrines instead of indoor plumbing, Torches for illumination of darkened areas, etc) along with fairly modern stuff going on as well (Cars, bikes, robots, helicopters, airplanes, machineguns, bombs, chemical weapons, nukes, lasers, orbital weaponry, etc).

Some races make full usage of the technology available in the world, while many others do not. Its really perplexing to see gnomes and goblins using electric ovens to cook their meals, only to see humans and orcs using timber and fireplaces to cook their meals.

But that's azeroth for ya. Wide-spread use of technology is not really rampant. Doesn't make a lot of sense when one thinks about it.

Well, not exactly. They're literal aliens

So? they've earned their place by helping defend azeroth from several internal and external threats over the decades. Just like the Draenei are equally alien but have earned the right to stay here.

and their arrival was not at all peaceful.

So..... people are gonna be holding that over their heads forever? Dude, the overwhelming majority of the orcs died by the hundreds of thousands in the second war. The few that lived were captured and spend over 2 decades in concentration camps where every form of abuse imaginable was inflicted on them on a daily basis. They've paid for their crimes. To continue to hold them, and their descendants responsible for actions that they've already paid for is beyond unjust.

I don't see anyone still holding the night elves responsible for what the highborn did in the war of the ancients. Why? because A: the responsible parties paid for their crimes. B: The descendants of the responsible parties atoned for their crimes in multiple ways.

Negotiations broke down, but they didn't lead to a war

They didn't led to a war, but the chance for peace was lost for pretty stupid reasons. There was no excuse whatsoever to not take up the offer of the horde at the end of WOTLK. If they had, then the twilight hammer's stunt would had been way harder to pull off.

I don't recall anyone calling Thrall out for his actions in the Shattering

You have poor memory. I'm not talking just about the shattering. In several books lots of characters have called out Thrall on his poor choices. Shattering, Twilight of the Aspects, and Tides of War mostly. Whereas other than Anduin, almost nobody has ever called out Varian on HIS many screw ups.

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