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Post by
Adamsm
But it's still a Cursed form and not an actual altering of the race itself; at their core, the standard Gilnean still sees themselves as a human with something extra hiding for the most part.
Its irrelevant how they see themselves. They are not human anymore.
Its like Naga and Satyrs still being under the delusion that they're still nightelves, when they're anything but.
If they were still human at all underneath all that fur, the valks would had been able to raise them as undead. But they weren't able to do so, it took regular necromancy from the lich king to create undead worgen.
Right...Because the Curse was interfering with the spells the Valks could cast.
Post by
matheus314
Just want to bring a bit more logic to this talks, I'm liking all the points of view you guys are bringing to it, but there's one thing we know for sure:
Worgen curse is passed through by biting or ingesting worgen blood.
So, after papa Worgen and mama Worgen make some sweet love and mama Worgen gets pregnant, an untainted Human baby is born in her womb, now, can you tell me what the baby is swimming in there? That's right:
Mama Worgen's blood.
Making the fact that the curse doesn't pass straight through DNA completely irrelevant, since the baby will be tainted with mama Worgen's blood during all the gestation.
Post by
Adamsm
But they've already said that it will be born without the Curse; I agree that's a bit much but then again, it's a bit strange that Humans and Orcs are viable even though they aren't from the same world....and even stranger that Draenei and Orcs are viable. DNA/Genetics don't mean much in the Warcraft universe unless where Rule of Cool is in full effect.
Post by
matheus314
But that's what I'm saying. The baby is BORN (scientific strict sense) human, but is tainted with his mom's blood on her womb, so it doesn't really matter.
Post by
Stabhorn
But it's still a Cursed form and not an actual altering of the race itself; at their core, the standard Gilnean still sees themselves as a human with something extra hiding for the most part.
If they were still human at all underneath all that fur, the valks would had been able to raise them as undead. But they weren't able to do so, it took regular necromancy from the lich king to create undead worgen.
But Val'kyr can raise non-humans, we saw it in ICC.
Post by
Atik
But it's still a Cursed form and not an actual altering of the race itself; at their core, the standard Gilnean still sees themselves as a human with something extra hiding for the most part.
If they were still human at all underneath all that fur, the valks would had been able to raise them as undead. But they weren't able to do so, it took regular necromancy from the lich king to create undead worgen.
But Val'kyr can raise non-humans, we saw it in ICC.
In light of the retcon from Cataclysm, I'm assuming whatsherface was using more conventional necromancy, rather than her innate abilities.
Or those guys are just really bad. I mean, even if you clear the entire room without them dying, they just sorta drop dead.
Post by
Adamsm
But it's still a Cursed form and not an actual altering of the race itself; at their core, the standard Gilnean still sees themselves as a human with something extra hiding for the most part.
If they were still human at all underneath all that fur, the valks would had been able to raise them as undead. But they weren't able to do so, it took regular necromancy from the lich king to create undead worgen.
But Val'kyr can raise non-humans, we saw it in ICC.
That was the actual necromancy and not the innate ability that they magically gained after the fall of the Lich King.
Post by
Rankkor
But it's still a Cursed form and not an actual altering of the race itself; at their core, the standard Gilnean still sees themselves as a human with something extra hiding for the most part.
Its irrelevant how they see themselves. They are not human anymore.
Its like Naga and Satyrs still being under the delusion that they're still nightelves, when they're anything but.
If they were still human at all underneath all that fur, the valks would had been able to raise them as undead. But they weren't able to do so, it took regular necromancy from the lich king to create undead worgen.
Right...Because the Curse was interfering with the spells the Valks could cast.
That doesn't make any sense. If the curse could interfere with the Valk magic, it could interfere with any magic. Unless you're saying that it was specifically designed to counter exclusively, and specifically, valk magic and no other.
Because regular necromancy works just fine on a worgen. But Valk necromancy, which only works on humans, fails to work on worgens.
Because they're not human.
But Val'kyr can raise non-humans, we saw it in ICC.
That was normal necromancy. Not Runic Necromancy.
There's two ways a val'kyr can ressurect the dead.
The first one is their Runic Necromancy, which was usually reserved as a privilege for the Vry'kul that proved themselves to the lich king. We saw this in many zones, how they would organize tournaments to prove their might, to be deemed worthy to be raised as Ymirjar, and ascend to Jottunheim.
A Ymirjar is a sentient undead. No longer bound by the limits of mortality, but still possessing their intelligence, free will, and prowess.
Their second type of magic is regular necromancy, which they used to raise non-human forces as cannon fodder, and as a way to punish those who failed the challenge of ascension, damning them to become Vargul, which are common undead, with no will of their own, and bound to the will of whatever necromancer raised them.
This right here, is why worgens giving birth to human babies makes no sense. Runic Necromancy is powerless against them, because they're not human, but normal necromancy works just fine. If the curse was interfering with the Runic Necromancy, it would have to interfere with the latter one too. Unless it was specifically and exclusively designed to counter val'kyr runic magic. Which it wasn't, unless some serious citations are provided.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
And the Curse makes it so the infected are not human for the purpose of the Valk magic. It's not that hard to see. The Curse is tied into the host and only the host, so if you need to, think of it as a parasite that is linked to the host itself but anyone who is born from the host will be the original base without the Curse infection inside of them.
Post by
Atik
And the Curse makes it so the infected are not human for the purpose of the Valk magic. It's not that hard to see. The Curse is tied into the host and only the host, so if you need to, think of it as a parasite that is linked to the host itself but anyone who is born from the host will be the original base without the Curse infection inside of them.
But then, when they die, why don't they return to being Human?
Post by
Adamsm
And the Curse makes it so the infected are not human for the purpose of the Valk magic. It's not that hard to see. The Curse is tied into the host and only the host, so if you need to, think of it as a parasite that is linked to the host itself but anyone who is born from the host will be the original base without the Curse infection inside of them.
But then, when they die, why don't they return to being Human?
Gameplay reasons; again, we see times where it's not a Worgen spirit that rises up out of the body but the human one.
Post by
Rankkor
And the Curse makes it so the infected are not human for the purpose of the Valk magic. It's not that hard to see. The Curse is tied into the host and only the host, so if you need to, think of it as a parasite that is linked to the host itself but anyone who is born from the host will be the original base without the Curse infection inside of them.
uhuh.
Then why haven't we seen non-gilnean worgens giving birth to non-worgens? They've existed for thousands of years. You mean to tell me that in all that time, the original night elves turned worgen never once mated? And when they did, they had night elven children that magically disappeared never to be seen again? Same question for the worgen in duskwood. And the worgen in silverpine prior to the cataclysm.
I'm not buying it.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Atik
And the Curse makes it so the infected are not human for the purpose of the Valk magic. It's not that hard to see. The Curse is tied into the host and only the host, so if you need to, think of it as a parasite that is linked to the host itself but anyone who is born from the host will be the original base without the Curse infection inside of them.
But then, when they die, why don't they return to being Human?
Gameplay reasons; again, we see times where it's not a Worgen spirit that rises up out of the body but the human one.
Then they would be able to be raised. The dead body would be Human, and not immune to Valk magic.
Post by
Adamsm
And the Curse makes it so the infected are not human for the purpose of the Valk magic. It's not that hard to see. The Curse is tied into the host and only the host, so if you need to, think of it as a parasite that is linked to the host itself but anyone who is born from the host will be the original base without the Curse infection inside of them.
uhuh.
Then why haven't we seen non-gilnean worgens giving birth to non-worgens? They've existed for thousands of years. You mean to tell me that in all that time, the original night elves turned worgen never once mated? And when they did, they had night elven children that magically disappeared never to be seen again? Same question for the worgen in duskwood. And the worgen in silverpine prior to the cataclysm.
I'm not buying it.
Um...Rank you realize that all of the Worgens were sealed away in the Wild Dream until Argual started to pull them out, at which point they started to spread out across Azeroth; they've only been active about 5 years before the start of Cata and the Gilneas starting zone. Don't believe me, go read Curse of the Worgen where they explain all of that. As for Duskwood and Silverpine; we don't know. The ones in Duskwood were all feral monsters who killed and killed and killed and kept on killing. We don't see the children of Silverpine so for all we know they did give birth to regular babies....but since again, this was in that 5 year time span, it would be hard to tell for certain. And of course, the Silverpine Worgen were Argual experiments on top of that.
Then they would be able to be raised. The dead body would be Human, and not immune to Valk magic.
And for all we know the Curse is still active inside of the host after death....or the fact that the Curse was there negates the Valk's magic...Oh no wait, it is the second one, since that is what Blizzard tells us.
It's magic, not DNA. Again, this is a world where people routinely throw flames out of their hands and call upon Gods/Goddess/Loa for help.
Post by
Rankkor
Um...Rank you realize that all of the Worgens were sealed away in the Wild Dream until Argual started to pull them out, at which point they started to spread out across Azeroth; they've only been active about 5 years before the start of Cata and the Gilneas starting zone. Don't believe me, go read Curse of the Worgen where they explain all of that.
I'm aware of that. I was referring to the worgen in Silverpine and Duskwood, and Ashenvale.
As for Duskwood and Silverpine; we don't know. The ones in Duskwood were all feral monsters who killed and killed and killed and kept on killing.
And yet, this went on for 5 years. They had to mate at some point. Or else their numbers would had diminished. I'm not buying that they maintained their numbers exclusively via infecting others, since their priority is feeding on others, not biting and then walking off leaving them conveniently alive to turn, if they're truly feral, they lack the intelligence to actually make that calculated move.
This brings another fridge logic into the pot. If the original worgens were cursed night elves, why is the bite of a worgen only dangerous to humans? theoretically a bitten orc can also turn into a worgen?
This race makes no sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>_<(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Because the original Curse, the one made by Ralaar was a lot more potent since it had the Scythe of Elune behind it. The one that Gilnean's ended up with was less so. Also, as seen in Dark Riders, the bite of the Duskwood Worgens does cause the infection; if you fought off a worgen attack but were bitten, you were doomed to become one later. The Duskwood group wouldn't have had to mate and since Silverpine was the place of Argual's experiments, it's hard to tell there.
Also, depending on what type of Worgen bit you, any race but the Undead could end up as a Worgen as well; so that more then anything shows that the magic itself is powerful and it doesn't really have much to do with DNA since that would make even less sense if it was something that could be passed across racial lines...but then again, we already see that with things that shouldn't be viable somehow being viable.
Post by
Stabhorn
What happened to the Shard of the Vision of Time after Garrosh's death?
Post by
Adamsm
What happened to the Shard of the Vision of Time after Garrosh's death?
It was destroyed during the Hellscream short story so that the truth about Garrosh and Thrall wouldn't be revealed to Grommash.
Post by
Stabhorn
What happened to the Shard of the Vision of Time after Garrosh's death?
It was destroyed during the Hellscream short story so that the truth about Garrosh and Thrall wouldn't be revealed to Grommash.
Ah, I must have missed that.
Also, I just read about Cho'Gall's death in Highmaul. I guess we really are going to face an Old God on Draenor.
Post by
Rankkor
What happened to the Shard of the Vision of Time after Garrosh's death?
It was destroyed during the Hellscream short story so that the truth about Garrosh and Thrall wouldn't be revealed to Grommash.
Are you sure about that? I thought he interrupted the whole vision by taking the shard off Grom's hands. If he had destroyed it, how the heck would he be able to open a Dark Portal linking Alternate!Draenor to Main!Azeroth? as kairoz said, he would need the shard for that purpose.
I'm gonna re-read the story again just to check up, but I think the shard is in Grom's possession, and I dearly hope it plays a key role in his boss fight.
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