General Lore Discussions

Post by matheus314

Blood Elves are related to High Elves (the ones who really taught Northern EK Humans how to mage) as much as Ukranians are related to Russians.

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Thrall's biggest mistake was to not stand up and show Garrosh how he really wanted him to be. Untill it was too late. The way I see, you're both agreeing to disagree (/sigh). He had to be the paternal figure Garrosh needed, yet, he was just a partner who tried to mend his bud's problems, not showing the big picture. You can say Thrall didn't shaped Garrosh as his will, but you can't say he is not guilty of what happened.

Post by Morec0

Post by Rankkor

Blood Elves are related to High Elves (the ones who really taught Northern EK Humans how to mage) as much as Ukranians are related to Russians.

Wrong analogy. Blood Elves are still the same people today as they used to be 20 years ago. The main difference between the former and the latter is a philosophical one. They didn't even changed THAT much by their exposure to fel other than a subtle change in eye coloration, and BOTH races have to deal with arcane addiction.

So no, you're wrong. Blood Elves DID teach humans how to wield magic. So did the High Elves. Elves in General taught humans magic. Except night elves. As shown in the Azshara zone, they're unbelievably newbie at magic by virtue of all the non-highborne being incredibly crappy mages.

Thrall's biggest mistake was to not stand up and show Garrosh how he really wanted him to be.

But that's the thing, by NOT showing garrosh how he wanted him to be, he had no hand in shaping garrosh as a person, thus garrosh's claim that "Thrall made him who he is" is wrong. If garrosh had said "This is as much your fault as it is mine" that'd be something else.

you can't say he is not guilty of what happened.

And I'm not. Read my above posts, I specifically said Thrall bears a big chunk of blame for what happened due to his inaction, but being responsible for what happened, and specifically shaping garrosh into who he is today, are two completely different things.

Lemme use an analogy. If you travel to the wilds, and find a wolf cub and you go "awww look at the puppy" and bring it home with you as if he was a domesticated dog, and leave it on your home, but don't really raise him at all, leave him to his own all the time, even let him out so he can hunt on his own, and that wolf grows into a full feral predator, and kills someone.......

You are certainly responsible for what that wolf did. He's a feral wild animal, you're the one who was dumb enough to bring a wild animal to an urban area, and leave it unsupervised, so all the damage he causes is in large part on you, but if when captured the wolf suddenly shouts that YOU ARE THE ONE WHO MADE ME LIKE THAT, that's completely ridiculous. He was already wild and feral and savage when you found him. You made the mistake of thinking he was domesticated and tame like a puppy, but you certainly didn't made him savage, feral and wild.

That's what I'm trying to get at, Garrosh became what he is by his own choices, and Thrall had no hand in that at all. All the disasters caused by garrosh are also Thrall's fault because he was in a position to stop him, and did nothing about it. That's the same as a cop who sees a mugger holding up a liquor store, and does nothing. Sure the mugger is the one who robbed the store, but the robbery is also the cop's fault too, because he had the position to do something about it, and chose not to.

Post by matheus314

Except that when you (Thrall) went all the way to the wilds (Nagrand) and found the wolf cub (Garrosh), you showed him EXACTLY what he could do when he get to lead the pack (Horde). And then, you make him lead the pack.

You should read yesterday's (Sep, 21st) Know Your Lore article from Wow Insider about Thrall and Garrosh relationship. It's very enlightening.

So no, you're wrong. Blood Elves DID teach humans how to wield magic. So did the High Elves. Elves in General taught humans magic.

I guess my analogy was misunderstood by you, I'm not using the reasons why they're different, I'm just talking politics here. When the Humans learned magic from the Elves, they were called High Elves. Now, the Blood Elves were never allied to the Humans, but they were once part of this bigger section of their race. Even worse, when they first contact any Human after becoming the Blood Elves, is as enemies, because both are from different factions (Horde and Alliance).

Post by Rankkor

Except that when you (Thrall) went all the way to the wilds (Nagrand) and found the wolf cub (Garrosh), you showed him EXACTLY what he could do when he get to lead the pack (Horde).

Except he never did. Thrall never tutored garrosh in leadership, He just put him in charge of the Warsong Offensive just like that, and then put him in charge of the horde just like that, with no training, no molding, no shaping, nada. Fresh off Nagrand and into the command Chair.

Again, this makes Thrall responsible for all the screw-ups of garrosh, but doesn't mean Thrall "made him what he is".

You should read yesterday's (Sep, 21st) Know Your Lore article from Wow Insider about Thrall and Garrosh relationship. It's very enlightening.

I did, and if by "enlightening" you mean "So full of crap it could fertilize the entire amazonian jungle and you'd still have more to spare" then yes, you're right.

I tend to not put much stock on the writers of Wow Insider. They have a lot of writers that really don't know what they're talking about in there (like that one guy who said Varian has never been an idiot when he was a first grade class 1 dumbass in WOTLK. Yes he grew off of it, but back then he was, so you can't say "he's never been an idiot")

So no, you're wrong. Blood Elves DID teach humans how to wield magic. So did the High Elves. Elves in General taught humans magic.

My analogy was misunderstood by you, I'm not using the reasons why they're different, I'm just talking politics here. When the Humans learned magic from the Elves, they were called High Elves. Now, the Blood Elves were never allied to the Humans, but they were once part of this bigger section of their race.

I think you got that backwards. Lets take the words "Blood" and "High" off for a moment. There's White Elves.

The White Elves taught humans magic. Later on 80% of the White Elves renamed themselves Blood Elves, and the other 20% Renamed themselves High Elves. But that doesn't changes the fact that the magisters of the Blood Elves are still the same people that taught humans magic, many of them composed of archmages with centuries of experience in magic affairs.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by matheus314

So you take their (virtual) reality and replace by yours. Okay. You can do that.

I think you got that backwards. Lets take the words "Blood" and "High" off for a moment. There's White Elves.

The White Elves taught humans magic. Later on 80% of the White Elves renamed themselves Blood Elves, and the other 20% Renamed themselves High Elves. But that doesn't changes the fact that the magisters of the Blood Elves are still the same people that taught humans magic, many of them composed of archmages with centuries of experience in magic affairs.

Deal. Now you're agreeing with me. ;)

'White elves' taught humankind magic. After that they split in 2 smaller factions: High elves that kept humankind as allies and blood elves that become enemies of the humankind.

I am deliberately including the Sunreavers into the Blood Elves exactly because they call themselves Blood Elves (and that's what they are).

Post by Rankkor

So you take their (virtual) reality and replace by yours. Okay. You can do that.

Hmmm, I don't follow.

'White elves' taught humankind magic. After that they split in 2 smaller factions: High elves that kept humankind as allies and blood elves that become enemies of the humankind.

For the record, it was the humans who became enemies of the elves, not the other way around. Humans were the ones who fired the first shot by locking them all in the violet hold just because they refused to fall for the Uriah Gambit. Then, as an act of good faith, they still allowed their brethren who still allied with the humans, full access to the sunwell, even though they were not obligated in any way to do so. And finally, tried to mend fences with the humans and rejoin the alliance, only for the humans once again striking them first with the purge of Dalaran.

So its not the elves who became enemies of the humans, its the humans who became enemies of the elves.

And this is way off topic. All of this stemmed from what I said earlier that as horde, on Talador, if I choose the Arcane Sanctum as my Outpost Building, I shouldn't have to resort to ask the Kirin Tor for help in setting up the arcane ley lines, when the blood elves, the same guys who taught humans how to wield magic, are also in talador. Doesn't make sense, and I'd very much wish we could just ask for help to the Sunsworn instead of the bleeping Kirin damned Tor.

Post by oneforthemoney

Are the rest of the Garrison buildings more faction specific? Because you have a point. I don't really see the Kirin Tor getting close to the Horde again after recent events.

Post by matheus314

The thing is, Khadgar is trumping Jaina's Kirin Tor authority on Draenor. You're hating a person not the whole faction.

Post by Rankkor

Are the rest of the Garrison buildings more faction specific?

Well, this was actually Outposts I was talking about, not Garrisons.

On the Garrisons, some buildings have different names, but they serve the same functions. The inn is called Lunarfall Inn for alliance, and Frostwall Tavern for horde.

The armory is called Dwarven Bunker for alliance, and War Mill for horde.

The portal building is called Mage Tower for alliance, and Spirit Lodge for horde.

The Workshop is called Gnomish Gearworks for alliance, and Goblin Workshop for horde.

Other than the name, they're the same building.

Outposts on the other hand are something else.

Because you have a point. I don't really see the Kirin Tor getting close to the Horde again after recent events.

Or Horde getting close to the Kirin Tor for that matter. It was utterly revolting to me to have to ask for help to those murderers when setting out my Outpost >_>

That's as tacky as forcing alliance players to ask the forsaken for help, just after completing the worgen starting zone.

Ok so I'll provide more context.

When you enter a new zone, one of the first things you do, is establish an outpost. Its just a fancy name for a horde/alliance quest hub where you get to choose 1 out of 2 buildings that share the same skin as a garrison building. This choice is more than just cosmetic, because depending on the building chosen, you get a zone-wide cooldown, and a quest-chain to make the building (and its cooldown) "Active".

Unlike Garrison buildings which are cheap and quick to replace if you later change your mind, Outpost buildings are permanent, and can only be changed at lvl 100 for a really hefty sum of gold (10000 gold to be precise) So you must REALLY choose carefully what building do you want.

Also, choosing building A, and then at lvl 100 replacing it with Building B doesn't mean you get to do the questchain of Building B. That questchain is permanently lost on that character.

Now, normally, the quest-chain associated with the building just involves doing stuff related to battling the iron horde. For example, on Gorgrond, as both horde and alliance, if you pick the sparring arena as your outpost building, you get a questchain where you battle the gorian ogres to release their slave gladiators. After that's done, the gladiators who are from alliance races (like draenei) join your garrison as followers, and the ones that are from horde races (like orcs) join your garrison as followers if you're horde.

But one specific building really annoys me as horde, and its the Arcane Sanctum in Talador, because after building it, the architect informs you that the building has to be linked to the Ley Lines and nobody on the Outpost knows how, so we must ask for the Kirin Tor for help. And here's where the salt is rubbed on the wound, I have to ask those bastards for help, when a full regiment of Blood Elven Magisters are deployed in Talador.

wat?

I don't really see the Kirin Tor getting close to the Horde again after recent events.

They don't. When you ask Kadghar for help, he takes you to the Kirin Tor's main base of operations on Draenor, and the guards tell Kadghar that by order of Jaina, horde are forbidden to enter Kirin Tor premises. Kadghar retorts that he's a member of the council too, and if jaina doesn't like it, she can take it up with him, and thus allows us passage.

Much to my chagrin however, even if I choose the other building instead of the Arcane Sanctum on my talador outpost, I still have to work with the kirin tor. Since the Legendary quest is basically getting a bunch of stuff for Kadghar on his Kirin Tor tower.

>_>

For all the complaining some people made about having to work with Thrall on cata, at least then he was neutral and representing the Earthen Ring. But on Draenor I have to team up with Kadghar and the Kirin Tor multiple times even though they're explicitly alliance.

NOT Cool >_>

The thing is, Khadgar is trumping Jaina's Kirin Tor authority on Draenor. You're hating a person not the whole faction.

No, I have no issues with Kadghar, I have issues with his bleeding Kirin Tor. Teaming up with him to tackle on the shadow council is one thing, having to ask his bloody kirin tor for help is another.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by oneforthemoney

Fair enough. Though the fact that he is a part of the Kirin Tor does mean it makes a bit more sense, and this is probably one of those things we just have to grin and bear. And besides, this may be a good thing. If anyone can rein in Jaina, it's him.

Post by Rankkor

Why did it had to be Kirin Tor out of all things? I'd have zero problem working with Stormwind Humans, or Darnassus Elves, or Gnomes. And I'd actually LOVE to work with the dwarves and Draenei.

But Kirin frikking Tor? why blizz? D= why?

Wasn't the purge of dalaran enough? why must salt now be rubbed on an already fresh wound? And needlessly so, as I said before, Blood Elven Magister Regiment right around the corner, its not that hard to take 10 steps south instead of 10 steps north to ask THEM for help.

U_U

Post by oneforthemoney

Well, if anyone other than the blood elves know how to set up the ley lines, it would be them. None of the other Alliance factions have that kind of grip on the arcane (save maybe the returned Highborne).

Post by Rankkor

Well, if anyone other than the blood elves know how to set up the ley lines, it would be them.

Doesn't changes the fact that there was no reason why we couldn't just go to the Magisters of the Blood Elves. Its not like they were half the world away or anything, they were in the exact same zone.

None of the other Alliance factions have that kind of grip on the arcane (save maybe the returned Highborne).

Wait, don't the draenei have talented mages too?

Moving slightly away from this topic, here's one bit why that "Know Your Lore" article was clearly written by someone who doesn't know jack.

But he never would have been in a position to choose, had one green-skinned, blue-eyed orc not given him the opportunity to do so. Whether or not this thought even occurs to Thrall or weighs on his mind, we don't know -- but I think it would be a complete disservice to Garrosh's story if this did not have some greater effect on Thrall in the years to come.

o_O

yes we do. Thrall has said many times that putting garrosh as leader was a mistake, his mistake, one that not only he feels makes him unworthy of picking up the mantle of warchief again, but also feels that he personally needs to correct. He said it in Siege of Orgrimmar, says it again repeatedly in War Crimes, and says it again for good measure in Nagrand.

See why I don't put much stock on Wow Insider's "Know your Lore"? its written by biased talentless hacks who don't know their facts before writing.

Post by Adamsm

You know, haven't been a big fan of Anne's recent articles...but I like this one especially at the end:
Here's the utter truth of the matter: Thrall found a tiger in the jungle, pulled a thorn from its paw, then dragged it home with him and expected it to act like a domesticated house cat. And despite the blatantly obvious fact that said tiger was a wild creature and far from domesticated, he left it alone to its own devices, and when it turned around and killed the neighbor's chickens, he killed it. Not only did he kill it, he blamed it for being a tiger, he blamed it for doing what was pretty much in its nature, and told the tiger, as he squeezed the life from its lungs, "You chose your own path."

Post by Rankkor

And as I stated, she doesn't know jack squat. Look at the final part of the article I just quoted.

She's the same person who wrote that varian "never" has been an idiot, even though previous events prove otherwise.

Pfft. I put as much trust in her as I do on the writing staff of Kotaku and SomethingAwful in general. They're the equivalent of tabloids for videogames.

Regarding the "tiger" analogy, it fails flat on its face because garrosh is not an animal, its a person. Animals are dumb creatures that act by instinct, people can learn from their mistakes and adapt.

Thrall found a wild, savage, and primal orc, brought him home, put him in a position of power, and then left him to his own devises without providing training, or advice. This makes him just as much guilty of what garrosh has done, but it doesn't changes the fact that garrosh still was the one who chose to make all those horrible calls.

Do remember that Thrall when he appointed Garrosh as Warchief, also said to him to trust on his advisors, Cairne, Vol'jin, and the rest of the other horde leaders, he told him to not act rash and without restraint. What did garrosh do? ignore all of the above, and paid no mind to Cairne or Vol'jin, surrounded himself with nothing but yesmen and sycophants and did whatever he pleased.

His assesment that thrall shaped him into what he is, is still false. I dunno why so many people are praising that absolutely hideous article that shows a complete disregard for the lore. Note how she says "we don't know" how thrall feels about his appointment of garrosh, when its blatantly false.

By reading previous articles made by her, its pretty clear she has a pretty HUGE chip on her shoulder regarding Thrall (Almost as big as the chip on my shoulder regarding the purge of dalaran, but not quite), and that article just showcases it as she whitewhashes garrosh and pretty much demonizes thrall to no end.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by matheus314

Ugh Rankkor... I'm sure you know alot about lore, but sometimes your faction bias is only eclipsed by your stubbornness... I'd love to know more stuff about what's going on at the story... I'll get back when you guys change the subject.

>_<

Post by Rankkor

Ugh Rankkor... I'm sure you know alot about lore, but sometimes your faction bias is only eclipsed by your stubbornness...

What faction bias? D= this isn't a horde vs alliance thing, this is me debunking a faulty article that is more about Thrall-bashing with no real basis or real knowledge of the story.

But fine, I'll just expand on why that article is so full of crap on a different thread to not continue beating on the same topic on this particular one.

I'd love to know more stuff about what's going on at the story.

Its hard to give much insight without spoiling everything, and honestly, the story was so good I'd rather not spoil it more than I already have.

I can tell you this much, almost every zone was amazing for me, save for a few spots here and there that annoyed me to no end (Such as Aggra being in the game at all, or having to ask the kirin frikking tor for help, for example). But on the whole, it was amazing, and I enjoyed it a lot.

I'm thinking on making a thread to discuss the plotlines of the different zones. The pro's and con's of each.

Yeah, I'll be doing that later tonight :P

Post by Skreeran

Well, Thrall does have a bad habit of denying responsibility for Garrosh's actions.

I mean, really, Thrall putting Garrosh in that position of power resulted in literally the worst possible outcome for the Horde: Horde sworn rebels fighting Horde sworn loyalists. Family in-fighting. I mean, even total annhilation of the Horde and all its members would have been preferable, in the Horde mindset, to the dishonorable civil war between brother that was the Darkspear Rebellion and the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Post by Rankkor

Well, Thrall does have a bad habit of denying responsibility for Garrosh's actions.

To be fair, he has acknowledged many times (In SoO, in War Crimes, in Nagrand) that putting garrosh in charge was a horrible mistake on his end.

Having said that, I have to admit it would be nice if he could also acknowledge that while putting garrosh in charge was a bad idea, NOT INTERVENING when he started going off the deep end of crazy was an even worse idea.

I mean really, the first mistake was an honest one, anyone could had made it. But the second mistake? that one was stupid with a capital S, and one they haven't explained away other than his brief musings during the 5.1 questchain when he liberates the echo isles.

I mean, really, Thrall putting Garrosh in that position of power resulted in literally the worst possible outcome for the Horde: Horde sworn rebels fighting Horde sworn loyalists. Family in-fighting. I mean, even total annhilation of the Horde and all its members would have been preferable, in the Horde mindset, to the dishonorable civil war between brother that was the Darkspear Rebellion and the Siege of Orgrimmar.

I wouldn't go that far. Specially since the garrosh loyalists were on the minority. (Only one race from the horde, and even then, a minority within that race).

A small segment of the horde going rogue isn't worse than the total extermination of the horde.

its done a pretty large damage to the honor, identity, and name of the horde though, and I hope blizzard provides us with opportunities to be FINALLY the good guys from here on out.

We've been beaten with the villain stick too much since the broken front >=( its pissing me off.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

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