General Lore Discussions

Post by Rankkor

it was really "meh" for the alliance)That's the understatement of the century.

For me it was balanced out because 5.4 was a horrible patch for me. (For reasons I already illustrated on the recycle bin. I didn't enjoyed and still don't, having to siege my capital on a weekly basis, and even the payoff of killing garrosh was denied thanks to King Chin wanting to have a pissing match.)

Post by Adamsm

I've made my feelings clear on 5.4 as well, so not rehashing that horse again.

Post by Skreeran

You know, this discussion reminds me...

So I've decided to main Nakresh (my Orc Arms Warrior) in WoD, firstly because he's an orc and I couldn't really see myself taking Skreel (my Forsaken Shadow Priest) through all this orc lore without any regret, and secondly because he was the character I enjoyed PvPing with the most back in MoP.

If you don't know anything about him, the summary is that he grew up in the Internment Camps, fought in the Third War, and joined the Kor'kron after a tour in Outland. I had an almost full set of Kor'kron Elite gear for him in-game. He's also a widower and a single father of his daughter Themra (who would be 7 years old in Mists).

Well, while I still need to write a fan-fic for him (after my long essay and my Gurka fan-fic >_<), let me say that I had a lot of trouble deciding what to do with him. He takes honor very seriously, and I was considering having him die in Siege of Orgrimmar simply out of loyalty to his Oath.

Well, I decided against it. After seeing SoO and all that Garrosh does there, I know that Nakresh would have his limits, and would be forced to break his oath.

So, that brings me to the interesting point: Nakresh would hate Garrosh just as much, if not more so than most non-orcs. Garrosh forced him to give up his honor (by either breaking his oath or keeping his oath and losing his honor by carrying out Hellscream's will). Garrosh threatened the life and livelihood of his young daughter. Garrosh cost him his position in the Kor'kron.

Nakresh had a long brown braided beard, and two braids on his head, but I think now I'm going to have him cut them off to symbolize his lost honor. He's going to go to Alternate Draenor as an honorless Orc, as good as dead in Orc culture, and try to build it back up from scratch.

Post by Adamsm

Good plan Skree :)

Post by Rankkor

Sounds like an interesting concept :)

I'm not gonna spoil it for ya, but lets just say there's LOOOOOOOTS of opportunities for Honor-building in Frostfire Ridge and the Frostwolves.

I really love their questline, and the way it unravels as you establish your presense, and leave a mark on the planet.

Gameplay-wise though, I'd advice you to give Fury a try. Its ridonkulously fun in WoD. Particularly if you take the talent "Unquenchable thirst" which removes the CD off Bloodthirst.

Fury now feels more fun than ever, you're like a machine-gun, delivering an innumerable amount of fast hits on the enemy.

One of the reasons I disliked Fury in MoP is because its too RNG dependent. You NEED to crit with Bloodthirst to be able to use Raging Blow, and your other rage dumps (Heroic Strike and Wild Strike) barely do any damage at all. You NEED to crit with Bloodthirst also because its how you get enraged, as your mastery increases your damage while enraged.

But in WoD, bloodthirst not only has no cooldown if you take the Unquenchable Thirst talent, it also has a 30% extra chance to be a crit, and you get a passive that increases your crit rating from all your gear by 5%. As a fury warrior in draenor, I never have an empty GCD, I'm constantly spamming BT over and over, getting enraged near constantly, delivering raging blows galore, and burning off excess rage in wild strike which is not only super fast (they almost have no GCD) but actually hits hard this time. (As an added bonus, Berserker Rage now has the visual icon of Bloodlust over your head. That's just 50 different flavors of awesomeness right there =D)

From a story perspective, do you think it would fit into his character to abandon the discipline and self-control of an arms warrior, and instead, tap into his inner rage as fury while he hunts down Garrosh in draenor? the orc who stripped him of what is most precious to most orcs, his honor.

If you think it would make sense, I totally encourage you to ditch arms and go fury all the way :)

For me, an arms warrior, is like a very disciplined, controlled, and precise fighter, who values quality over quantity, and delivers carefully controlled, very powerful hits. Like a well trained Phalanx.

While a Fury warrior is more of a raging berserker, running towards his foes with complete and total abandon, screaming at the top of his lungs, and butchering anything on the way. A man-shaped battering ram, that attacks with complete disregard to personal safety, and slaughters the enemy in more ways than one.

Which one do you think fits better with Nakresh now that he considers himself an honorless orc with nothing to lose?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by morginar

the orc who stripped him of what is most precious to most orcs, his honor.

What about spirits/shamans?

Anyway, perhaps he may reconect to some of the past orcs to regain his honor, perhaps the honorable arms blademasters of burning blade told him. "You hit like a loling skull."

BTW what is his clan?

Post by Adamsm

Honour is first and fore most the important thing to the large majority of orcs; that's how Garrosh was able to gather so many followers, by stating that he would return their honor to them and they would stop living like dogs forced to take the scraps of the world and would be returned to the top of the food chain.

It's also how KJ and Gul'dan were able to play the Old Horde so easily; work off the 'greatest' strength/weakness and go from there. It's why Doomhammer wanted to shatter the skull of Gul'dan and the Shadow Council so badly; they stole the honour of his people with their plotting.

Post by morginar

Honour is first and fore most the important thing to the large majority of orcs; that's how Garrosh was able to gather so many followersMany =/= All

It's also how KJ and Gul'dan were able to play the Old Horde so easily; work off the 'greatest' strength/weakness and go from there.Does that include Durotan and Drek'thar?

Spirituality is a big deal for a lot of orcs.

Post by Adamsm

Yes; Drek wanted to learn the new abilities of the Warlocks and begged Durotan to let him and the other shamans of the Frostwolf clan go and study them. Durotan's personal honour was a driving force behind his decisions after the Spirits 'abandoned' them.

If you had to look at it: Honour is first and foremost for the orcs, followed by family and clan, then the ancestors, then whatever spiritual belief they have. Most of what we've seen of orc spirituality came from the Frostwolf clan...and as said many a time, they were not the normal orc clan; they were outsiders from the others. Did the clan chief's listen to the shaman? Yes. Did all of the clans take what the shamans said as seriously as the Frostwolf clan? Not always.

Post by Skreeran

Which one do you think fits better with Nakresh now that he considers himself an honorless orc with nothing to lose?Honestly, I'll probably stick with Arms. It's my favorite spec to play (although granted most of my experience with Fury was back in WotLK), and him using one two-handed weapon fits his character better than him swinging two around.

It's an interesting idea, though. I mean, he has a lot of fury, I just don't envision him in my head as a hulking berserker. I think he'd feel more cold and bitter toward Garrosh, wanting to kill him just to make things right, to get even, rather than out of anger.

BTW what is his clan?Blackrock, actually. He was taken captive at the age of 5 after the Battle of Blackrock Spire, so he didn't grow up in the Dark Horde. He didn't grow up with a strong clan identity like the Frostwolves or the Warsong, so all he really had was the Horde and the Kor'kron, and now both are sullied.

Does that include Durotan and Drek'thar?

Spirituality is a big deal for a lot of orcs.This is actually a very important point, and if I finish my Essay before I have to go back to camp, you'll see why.

Unfortunately I only have until Monday, and then I'm camping until mid-October.

Post by morginar

This is actually a very important point, and if I finish my Essay before I have to go back to camp, you'll see why.

Unfortunately I only have until Monday, and then I'm camping until mid-October.Crossing my fingers then.

Blackrock, actually. He was taken captive at the age of 5 after the Battle of Blackrock Spire, so he didn't grow up in the Dark Horde. He didn't grow up with a strong clan identity like the Frostwolves or the Warsong, so all he really had was the Horde and the Kor'kron, and now both are sullied.Sounds like a clan complexity.

Post by Skreeran

Blackrock, actually. He was taken captive at the age of 5 after the Battle of Blackrock Spire, so he didn't grow up in the Dark Horde. He didn't grow up with a strong clan identity like the Frostwolves or the Warsong, so all he really had was the Horde and the Kor'kron, and now both are sullied.Sounds like a clan complexity.Orc clans are actually quite fascinating. Remember, before the Horde, clans were the largest unit of Orc society, bar the Kosh'arg meeting.

Every clan had its own customs, culture, traditions, and probably dialect, and yet with the creation of the Horde, some of them were outright shattered. Smaller clans like the Whiteclaws, Redwalkers, and Bladewinds often opposed joining a huge monolithic entity like the Horde, but ended up being completely swallowed up anyway. Those orcs who survived were scattered and often lost their clan identity altogether.

Larger clans like the Warsong, Frostwolves, Dragonmaws, and the Burning Blade held onto their identities after the Second War, but the largest clan, the Blackrocks (Varok Saurfang, Broxigar the Red, Eitrigg, and Orgrim Doomhammer all belonged to this clan) was split in two. Some of them were captured and put into internment, but many of them fled deeper into Blackrock Mountain and became the Dark Horde.

Other clans, like the Shattered Hands and Bleeding Hollows ended up split between Azeroth and Draenor, and had different leaders and slightly different identities on either side after the portal was closed.

Really, the norm is actually a blending and scattering of clans, with only a few still having strong clan identities.

Post by Adamsm

Which is one of the reason why honour is so important to the orcs.

Post by Skreeran

Which is one of the reason why honour is so important to the orcs.I have a whole section on honor in my essay. I believe it's actually the reason clans and the Horde were able to form at all.

Honor means that people will only accept a chieftain who came to power fairly, and than any chieftain who acts dishonorably will fall out of favor and be challenged. Honor is what keeps the members of a clan or the Horde from fighting each other or having feuds. It's the whole reason orcs like Orgrim, Saurfang, Thrall, Drek'thar, Eitrigg, Kilrogg, and so on were able to stay at the top, rather than just getting assassinated and displaced by more cunning orcs.

Post by Rankkor

Its hard for me to talk about it without spoiling everything, but Clan Identity plays a pretty heavy role in this expansion. Or at least that's the vibe I've been getting from Frostfire Ridge.

I can't stress enough how great of a job blizzard did on making every single clan feel different, Iron Horde or not. From their culture, traditions, naming conventions, building style, clothing, weapons, fighting style, and more.

I'm honestly amazed. After getting used to every race being the same globally, its pretty striking to see one single race have such a plethora of drastically different cultures. Its almost like the only thing in common they have is that they're orcs, but you'd be excused for thinking they're entirely different races.

So far, the clans that have my favorite styles are the frostwolves, burning blade, and shattered hand. I'll see how the blackrocks are tomorrow when I start on Gorgorond.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Skreeran

That's why Orcs are my favorite race... :3

Spoilers be damned, you need to tell me everything there is to know about Kilrogg and the Bleeding Hollows if it comes up in the Beta, and if ANYTHING happens with Saurfang I must be the first to know, you got that?

Post by Adamsm

Well Doomhammer ruled through might...I mean come on, who in their right mind would want to tangle with him? Killing the previous Warchief and then slaughtering the Shadow Council afterwards would help with that; but even Doomhammer admitted to himself that he had to keep pushing or else the Old Horde would have rose up and killed him.

Thrall remained in the top spot for as long as he did because of his actions, being the first new shaman in two decades, having both Grom and Doomhammer's backing, and for forging a new homeland...but you were starting to see cracks even before he put Garrosh into power.

Saurfang has never really wanted the top position; his legacy of war was what kept most of the new recruits from challenging him. His beliefs were noble...but then again, we know what he did as a member of the Old Horde, where he did go against his honour(the pork story anyone?).

Drek'thar was the leader of a exiled tribe that had the chieftan and his mate suddenly disappear and later revealed to be murdered...but even then, the Frostwolves stayed hidden and out of the way following their exile.

From what Blood and Honour possibly alluded to, it sounds like Eitrigg went into exile on his own rather then try to deal with what the Blackrock clan had become in the mountain. The only reason he ran into Tirion was because he was going to find Thrall and come out of that self imposed exile.

Kilrogg no doubt, he kept the clan together and in it's roots...but then again, he was stuck in Draenor so bit easier for him.

But yes, honour is the main thing for a majority of the orcs; there are of course exceptions out there, but even Garrosh exemplifies the honourable lifestyle of the orcs....well, originally; to his Horde yes, to Thrall's Horde no later of course.

Post by Skreeran

Well Doomhammer ruled through might...I mean come on, who in their right mind would want to tangle with him? Killing the previous Warchief and then slaughtering the Shadow Council afterwards would help with that; but even Doomhammer admitted to himself that he had to keep pushing or else the Old Horde would have rose up and killed him. Well of course. All chiefs rule through might. That's what defines them as chieftain. Even if they inherited the position from their parent, they still have to be the strongest or someone else could just take it from them.

The reason honor keeps them there is because no one can just assassinate them and take their position. If, say, Rend had just bribed Orgrim's guards and had them poison him in his sleep, the clan and the Horde would know that he wasn't a legitimate leader. Because of honor, the only way a chieftain can rule legitimately is if they have a legitimate claim, from their parent or from defeating the previous chieftain in Mak'gora before witnesses.

Thrall remained in the top spot for as long as he did because of his actions, being the first new shaman in two decades, having both Grom and Doomhammer's backing, and for forging a new homeland...but you were starting to see cracks even before he put Garrosh into power.

Kilrogg no doubt, he kept the clan together and in it's roots...but then again, he was stuck in Draenor so bit easier for him.My point is that their honor either put them into a powerful position (the Warchief selected them as a leader or adviser because of their honor) or kept them there (a chieftain who is not the strongest, but is the most respected is not likely to get many challenges for their position).

Honor is the whole reason the Horde works.

Post by Adamsm

Well portions of the Horde; the Forsaken, Blood Elves and Goblins don't really buy into it, but since they have no better prospects at this time, well....

Post by Skreeran

Well portions of the Horde; the Forsaken, Blood Elves and Goblins don't really buy into it, but since they have no better prospects at this time, well....Well yeah. I'm speaking mainly of the Orcish Horde. The greater Horde all have different cultural values and such. Really though, by joining the Horde, all of those factions submitted to at least a token recognition of the Orcish values of strength and honor. Anyone who wants to take the position of Warchief would have to do it the fair way, though Mak'gora, and unless they want another civil war would have to win in a way in which there was no question that they overpowered the Warchief. No poison, no dirty tricks.

General Lore Discussions

Post Reply