General Lore Discussions

Post by matheus314

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of the Horde. The Horde isn't a coalition of nations, like the Alliance. All member races of the Horde have to become subordinate to the Horde and the Warchief, who, until Vol'jin became Warchief, ruled out of Orgrimmar.

As the Warchief, Vol'jin could move the Horde seat of government to anywhere he wants, but that's just not practical.

Your analogy of nations allied together fits better with the Alliance. The Horde really is more like the United States in that regard: a group of smaller local governments bonded together with a more powerful federal government.

Then this makes the choice of Vol'jin even more absurd! It'd be like electing as president a foreign person that never had any kind of politic power in the US (except maybe of consultant of the president).

Of course he'd get respect of some parties, but... and beyond that?

Post by Skreeran

But Vol'jin isn't from a foreign country. He's a member of the Horde, and has the same right to that throne as anyone else.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Rankkor

Since the position of Warchief is won through strength/power...technically, anyone can take the position; at any time, someone who feels that the current leader is completely and utterly !@#$ing it up can challenge them and the winner takes the reins...for as long as he can hold them. After all, if Carine had won, he would have been the new Warchief.

Though this is very true, Vol'jin's case is quite unique. He didn't attained his position through a display of power, he was elected. A first for the horde.

When Garrosh fell, a lot of people looked in Thrall's direction to re-take the leadership, instead, he recommended Vol'jin and every other leader agreed.

The way sylvanas phrased it though, it sounds like she may be issuing a challenge at some point.

That can't happen for the Alliance; all of the leaders are either chosen by the people(Night Elves, Draenei, Gnomes) or are royalty/clan leaders(Dwarves, Worgen, Humans); Pandarens are the old men out, though they once had Emperor's.

Actually, the night elves are a theocracy. Their ruler is chosen by a deity (elune) rather than the people. The draenei are an odd case, because they've been led by the same guy since their creation. (Who knows how the Triumvirate was chosen back when they were in argus. Meritocracy? Theocracy? Democracy?)

Post by Adamsm

Eh, been a while since I've read it, but was fairly certain that Tyrande was made High Priestess by the 'vote' of the Sisters as she had the favour of Elune in the WoA books. Seemed like from the brief flash we got in Rise of the Horde, each of the three had their own faction that followed them at first, so possible the Draenei voted them into power or just said these three were the most 'trustworthy' and put them in place.

Post by Rankkor

Eh, been a while since I've read it, but was fairly certain that Tyrande was made High Priestess by the 'vote' of the Sisters as she had the favour of Elune in the WoA books.

Its been a while since I read the WoA books too, but I was under the impression that there was no voting. The High Priestess was told by elune that her successor was to be Tyrande, and when the high priest got badly wounded, she passed on these wishes to the rest of the priesthood, so they could prepare the new High Priestess when the current one died.

I may have to re-read them to confirm though, since I admit its been way too long since I last read any of those.

Even if I'm wrong though, the night elves are still a theocracy, because "the people" don't really vote for their leader. In your example, the voting would be done by the rest of the clergy, and only members of the church are eligible for candidacy in the first place. And their main criteria of election is not popularity, but being favored by the deity they worship.

If that doesn't qualify as a Theocracy, I dunno what does =P(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##

Post by Adamsm

/shrug But it's still a 'vote' by the people to place them in power(if I remembered that right that is); remember, Maiev freaked out about it fairly violently since she thought she would be the next leader one the current High Priestess had gone down.

Post by morginar

But wasn't the high prestess that chosed Tyrande as successor as high priestess becouse she had high Elune power level?

Though Theocracy doesn't need a deity picking leaders.

The Vatikan is a Theocracy, for example.

Think the main criteria for Theocracy is that it's a religous leader that leads the nation and church.

Post by Skreeran

Personally, I think the Horde form of government is actually remarkable stable, for as driven by conflict as the orcs are. Because of their high regard for honor, it makes it a system in which everyone can have a shot at leadership, but only if they're strong enough to keep it. If they're a bad leader, then there should be no shortage of challengers, and eventually he'll be worn down and defeated. If he's a good leader, then the people are content with his leadership and he has fewer challenges.

Its actually a quite impressive that they managed to get a totalitarian meritocracy to work for them.

Post by Skreeran

Hey, I'm looking for a good compilation or playlist of Orcish music. Stuff like the Orgrimmar theme (Cataclysm and Original, the Landfall music and so on. Anyone got any suggestions?

Post by Rankkor

Post by Skreeran

A TON of WoD music is orcish in nature (no surprise there) so you may want to assemble a playlist when the expansion is released and you can extract those delicious musical files with an MPQ editor.

The music from the trailer in particular is awesome.Yeah, I'm sure I'll do that. I love Orcish music. I love exercising to it. I listen to it when I write orcs. It's amazing for getting into an Orcish mindset.

Edit: Listening to the Siege of Orgrimmar music right now, looking to pick out some really strong Orcish ones. Some of them have a great Orcish drum beat, but too many of them are too jazzy... xD

Post by Skreeran

I don't remember, and I don't have a copy of Rise of the Horde on hand to check: Why were some orcish clans left behind on Draenor? The Laughing Skulls, the Bonechewers, the Shattered Hands, and so on?

Edit: I can already tell this paper is gonna be huge. I'm currently writing the outline and have gotten through two of my six points, and already the outline alone takes up two pages.

Post by Adamsm

Some were left behind to 'keep watch' on their world while the others invaded.

Post by matheus314

So, summing up:

Its not only ok for Vol'jin to take the seat of power in Orgrimmar but it's also mandatory, because the city is not an Orc town, but the main Horde fortress (something like a United Nations base), therefore, the Leader of the Horde has to be standing in Orgrimmar.

Post by Rankkor

So, summing up:

Its not only ok for Vol'jin to take the seat of power in Orgrimmar but it's also mandatory, because the city is not an Orc town, but the main Horde fortress (something like a United Nations base), therefore, the Leader of the Horde has to be standing in Orgrimmar.

That means the Horde, differently from the Alliance, is not a reunion of different nations with a common goal, but a single entity, that is above country laws and borders and is not defined by race or faction.

That is correct yes.

If you look at stormwind for example, the city is 100% human, with human guards everywhere. While they have a "dwarf sector" it still has human guards, its still human buildings, and you can still see human NPCs in there. Its just that some NPCs are dwarves and gnomes.

Now look at orgrimmar. You get an entire city that is troll dedicated, with nothing but troll guards, troll NPCs, and troll architecture. Visit the Tauren sector and its nothing but tauren guards, tauren NPCs, tauren architecture. Visit the goblin sector and its goblin guards, goblin props, goblin NPCs.

I don't remember, and I don't have a copy of Rise of the Horde on hand to check: Why were some orcish clans left behind on Draenor? The Laughing Skulls, the Bonechewers, the Shattered Hands, and so on?

If I remember correctly, it was a two-fold reason.

The first is that the loyalty of some of those clans wasn't 100% checked, some of them were "wild cards" while others like the warsong were too unstable and unpredictable to control, remember that Gul'dan was the one pulling the strings here, this was all pre-doomhammer as warchief.

The second was contingency in case the invasion went awry, they needed to have extra clans back home to rebuild and try again later.

And the third, a lot of the clans left behind weren't that large in numbers in the first place.

Edit: I can already tell this paper is gonna be huge. I'm currently writing the outline and have gotten through two of my six points, and already the outline alone takes up two pages.

Don't forget to post it here when you're done :) I can't wait to read it.

Post by Adamsm

Oh forgot to mention; in Bloodsworn the blood elf paladin heals Felgrim the forsaken warlock...and hurts him while he heals his arm.

Post by cephadex

Sorry to interrupt your discussion; I don't usually post in here, but I've been trying to find an answer to this for a long time and haven't really been getting anywhere. This is in regard to Kairoz in WoD, and it contains spoilers, so I've put my question under a spoiler tag.

Following War Crimes I thought Kairoz would be significant in WoD, but looking through the datamined info it seems like he dies pretty early on. Also there was a screenshot of him being dead, and an orc. There's also a spell called "summon Kairoz (boss)," and I don't know if that means he might be a boss, or if it's just got to do with the way the spell is classified. Either way, it seems you continue to communicate with his spirit. Does anyone with beta access know what any of this might mean? Why is he an orc, and does he really die?

Also, there's been some speculation that maybe he helped start the Infinite Dragonflight, but Nozdormu had explicitly said in the past that he, himself, had started the Infinite Dragonflight, as Murozond. Don't suppose there's some chance Kairoz is Nozdormu in some way? (This may be totally random, but I have a screenshot from TBC of Chromie in that quest in Andorthal (no longer available), and she was standing next to a dude who looks like Kairoz but he had a different name back then, because Kairoz wasn't invented yet at the time. It's probably just a coincidence since there's a limited variety of ways an NPC can look, but I wonder if possibly back then they had some germ of an idea of what they wanted to do in the future, and much later Christie Golden made a story for Kairoz.

Also, while on the topic of dragons, in what way exactly is Wrathion a prince? You'd think it's just a title, but people refer to him as "his highness" and with all the proper respect you'd normally give a prince. I get that he's the only uncorrupted black dragon, and one of the last of his kind, but that still isn't the same thing as a prince.

Post by Rankkor

I just got an invite to the beta, and if I find an answer for you regarding the fate of Kairoz I'll let you know. I can tell you this right away though:

Kairoz is a dragon first and foremost. That elven form we see him use in the timeless isle is nothing more than a disguise. Same for chromie being a gnome, etc. All the dragon humanoid forms are just disguises they use to blend among mortal races, and because their enormous draconic forms are not practical when entering smaller buildings.

So if Kairoz is seen as an orc in Draenor, its simply because he's using a different spell to disguise himself. The rest of the iron horde would probably not take to him very well if he's seen in a slender elven form. So he uses an orc form to blend in.

As for your question regarding Wrathion:

He is a prince because he is the son of Deathwing. All dragon aspects are seen as royalty to the rest of the brood. Much like Alextrazsa is a queen to the reds, Deathwing was a king to the blacks, making his direct sons (Onyxia, Nefarian, Sabellian, Wrathion, etc) princes and princesses to the black dragonflight.

Post by morginar

Cobalt Band of Tyrigosa

Tyri is a preety blue princess for example.

General Lore Discussions

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