General Lore Discussions

Post by morginar

Uh huh...I'm betting she get's an arrow to the face if she tried it.
I doubt it.

Someone needs to read Beyond the Dark Portal; Arator is canon.
You're not my real dad! You can't tell me what to do!

Since we have High Elves still, I'm guessing yes, as there were mages in the Expedition, and Vereesa staved off her addiction due to Rhonin...and for all we know, Alleria could have gotten a fix from her husband as well.Those mages died in Kirin'Var village. And those high elves feed of dalaran/sparkle artefacts or plot hole. And is Alleria a blood knight now?

since Alleria was an accomplished Troll killer in her time.
If the part of her being over 2800 years old is still canon...

And it's possible(more then likely) that when T&A return, he'll end up neutral...but as seen with Vereesa, it's possible for a couple to be one half neutral and one half on a faction.

Neutrality sux and is dull. Having T on Ally and Alle on Hord may be fun. Love and hate lies close. Love is not eternal. Humans don't live forever, elves kinda do. Elf may not enjoy a romance where human grow old and die in the blink of a eye.

Really; let the Alliance have Alleria and Turaylon. They were grand heroes of the Alliance back in the day and they honestly should stay that way. The Alliance keeps losing heroes to the neutral factions, and it's starting to get really ^&*!ing tiresome.

And the horde heroes dies as raid/dungeon bosses, it's anoying. And Alleria is a elven hero. Let her be that rather than a Alliance hero. Let horde have one hero from wc2.

Post by Rankkor

Post by oneforthemoney

But after what the Horde 'did' to Theramore and her husband, can't see any chance of a happy reunion for all three Windrunners.

None of the horde leaders knew about the bomb, none of them condoned the attack, and only followed through lest they be charged with treason by garrosh and killed. And with Garrosh being made a scapegoat for every atrocity commited in the war, every horde leader could get exonerated for their part on it.

Specially since they really had no clue about the bomb until after it detonated.

Yes, but does Alleria really strike you as the kind of person to wait and listen long enough to learn all that? I feel like she's more the type to jump to conclusions and start casting aspersions about how base and vile the orcs and their allies are? Y'know, like Vereesa, & Jaina post-Theramore.

the same argument can be made in reverse, I feel like she's the type to jump to conclusions and start casting aspersions about how the alliance tried to commit genocide on her entire race, and basically imprisoned everyone on the violet hold for no reason. And then did so again, for no bloody reason.

You REALLY think she's the type of person to let that slide?

Ugh. Rank? Honestly, the whole 'Garithos committed genocide on the elves' is so blown out of proportion by you it's painful. First, it was only the military force under Kael'Thas, not the emptying of towns and cities. Second, Garithos was a renegade. Third, it happened after the undead, who Sylvanas is now for all intent and purposes the figure head of, that brought her people to that point. Fourth, Jaina imprisoned the Blood Elves living in the city, 'the orc huggers', while the high elves helped her do so. I doubt she's going to suddenly be up in arms about one side of her people killing the other, particularly as her sympathies will likely be more construed towards the ones who did not ally with the people she's been obsessed with killing for the last forty years or so.

Post by morginar

Garithos was a renegade

No, he was the commanding officer of the alliance after the scourge claimed Lordaeron. Ironforge and Quel'thalas reconised his athourity. He is a Alliance leader whether you like it or not.

Jaina imprisoned the Blood Elves

Jaina did more than that. It was a lot of elven blood and glass on the streets that night. And Veressa bathed in the blood of hundreds of inocents sunreavers.

But after what the Horde 'did' to Theramore and her husband, can't see any chance of a happy reunion for all three Windrunners.

None of the horde leaders knew about the bomb, none of them condoned the attack, and only followed through lest they be charged with treason by garrosh and killed. And with Garrosh being made a scapegoat for every atrocity commited in the war, every horde leader could get exonerated for their part on it.

Specially since they really had no clue about the bomb until after it detonated.

Yes, but does Alleria really strike you as the kind of person to wait and listen long enough to learn all that? I feel like she's more the type to jump to conclusions and start casting aspersions about how base and vile the orcs and their allies are? Y'know, like Vereesa, & Jaina post-Theramore.

the same argument can be made in reverse, I feel like she's the type to jump to conclusions and start casting aspersions about how the alliance tried to commit genocide on her entire race, and basically imprisoned everyone on the violet hold for no reason. And then did so again, for no bloody reason.

You REALLY think she's the type of person to let that slide?

You forgot the dwarven saboteur and the night elven invasion force in Quel'thalas questing before the blood elves even joined the horde.

Hatered do not last forever, nothing is eternal not love nor dislike. And now with Garrosh gone she may come to see Orcs as goody two shoes. Thrall might even slap it into her head. And she may hear how Vol'jin killed amani trolls in 4.1 Convincing her that darkspears are Ok, though pinkspear are superior.

Post by Adamsm

And those high elves feed of dalaran/sparkle artefacts or plot hole.Um...No not really; the RPG mention that some High Elves had small mana crystals with them, but as the largest portion of the High Elf survivors went with Jaina and helped create Theramore with the Lordaeron survivors, it shows that it's possible to not have fallen to the addiction. And not all of the mages in the Expedition died in what is now Netherstorm....go take a walk through Honour Hold and Alleria Stronghold; both of those locations have mages who survived the world asplode.
If the part of her being over 2800 years old is still canon...Da hell?

Tides of Darkness the book mention that Alleria was part of the group hunting for trolls who invaded the land before the war began. The Amani vs the High Elves has been going on for a very long time.

Let horde have one hero from wc2.You mean like Etrigg, Saurfang and the large number of other old Orcs still alive and kicking that the Horde have? No; Alleria and Turaylon should be with the Alliance, give us actual heroes who are part of the faction rather then making them all neutrals.

Post by Skreeran

Ugh. Rank? Honestly, the whole 'Garithos committed genocide on the elves' is so blown out of proportion by you it's painful. First, it was only the military force under Kael'Thas, not the emptying of towns and cities. Second, Garithos was a renegade. Third, it happened after the undead, who Sylvanas is now for all intent and purposes the figure head of, that brought her people to that point. Fourth, Jaina imprisoned the Blood Elves living in the city, 'the orc huggers', while the high elves helped her do so. I doubt she's going to suddenly be up in arms about one side of her people killing the other, particularly as her sympathies will likely be more construed towards the ones who did not ally with the people she's been obsessed with killing for the last forty years or so.Gonna have to agree with Money on this one.

There wasn't ever really a "genocide" against blood elves. There was an illegal roundup and witch hunt against the Sunreavers, and Garithos attempted to execute Kael'thas and his entourage, but no one ever tried to kill the blood elves as a whole.

In addition, you have to remember, Alleria is prejudiced, and prejudice is irrational. She hates orcs, and their Horde. She's not going to sit down and listen to both sides make their argument and then side with the Horde because of Jaina and Garithos, she's going to see orcs, and then try to kill them, and then try to kill anyone who tries to stop her from killing them.

Post by Adamsm

Post by Rankkor

In addition, you have to remember, Alleria is prejudiced, and prejudice is irrational. She hates orcs, and their Horde. She's not going to sit down and listen to both sides make their argument and then side with the Horde because of Jaina and Garithos, she's going to see orcs, and then try to kill them, and then try to kill anyone who tries to stop her from killing them.

You have to remember WHY she hates orcs though. She doesn't just hate them "just cause". She hates them because of what they did to her people. And humans twice have screwed over her people.

BIG time. She is prejudiced and irrational yes, and that's precisely why I don't believe she's gonna take it well when she sees what humans twice did to her people.

Post by Adamsm

Okay, look at it from the other side: Alleria out right murdered captive orcs(Beyond the Dark Portal), and more then likely Orcs such as Saurfang and Etrigg knew those killed by the Orc killer...do you really think there is any chance at all they would let her in, knowing her past and what she may do?

Also Rank: Who is to say that she is going to see the Blood Elves as her 'people'; after all, they fell to the manipulations of the demons(well their Prince did) and have a taint to them. Like I said earlier, she may see the High Elves as her true people and join back up with them, and then head north to take the lands back from the 'traitorous' Blood Elves.

We'll have to wait and see, but considering how prejudice she is, how much she was about vengeance, and just plain how much she hated the Orcs, I don't think she's going to turn on the Alliance....especially since her husband is a member of the species. Unless you are suggesting she's going to suddenly turn on him, and that more then likely won't happen.

Post by Stabhorn

So while we're on the subject of hatreds between races;

We have at least two great wars coming; the next invasion of the Burning Legion and the final war between the Faceless/Old Gods. Could a divided Azeroth stand against either of the forces? We know that the Legion has wiped out countless worlds; it is more than likely that some of those worlds were wholly united, but they still fell. The Old Gods have/had an army that gave the Titans a run for their money, and they were caught off guard.

What do you think? Will Azeroth have to stand united in the last battle? Or will they all fall, quarreling amongst themselves until the very end?

Post by oneforthemoney

You have to remember WHY she hates orcs though. She doesn't just hate them "just cause". She hates them because of what they did to her people. And humans twice have screwed over her people.

BIG time. She is prejudiced and irrational yes, and that's precisely why I don't believe she's gonna take it well when she sees what humans twice did to her people.

Yes, let's break that down. We have a human who tried to kill the prince that would later try and sell his people and the world to the burning legion. We have a human wizard who turned on the Blood Elves after one of their own betrayed her (this occurring twice mind you) both times under the orders of an orc, and the purge conducted not by humans, but by high elves which are the same 'race' as Valeera. Oh yes, and we have the fact that these blood elves were in fact purged and locked up because they swore allegiance to this orc, and if they did not resist they would not have been killed.

To summarize, we have high elves led by her own sister turning on the elves that sided with orcs, some of whom later betrayed their allies on the orders of said orc, an orc who later turns out to have sold himself to old gods and trying to basically take over the world with a Horde of orcs. So, why would she side with the people who, in turn, sided with the ones who basically confirmed her every prejudice about orcs? Because a human under his own directive locked up the greatest traitor to her nation? Or because elves basically engaged in a city state's civil war against each other? We keep in mind she is, in fact, irrational and prejudiced.

Post by Rankkor

Like I said earlier, she may see the High Elves as her true people and join back up with them, and then head north to take the lands back from the 'traitorous' Blood Elves.

That right there? is BS.

Quel'thalas fell to the scourge. it became a noman's land. And it was the blood elves who reclaimed it, who fought tooth and nail to take it back and repair it. While the high elves were too busy playing bootlicker to the alliance.

It belongs to the blood elves.

Oh yes, and we have the fact that these blood elves were in fact purged and locked up because they swore allegiance to this orc

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE PAL.

The Sunreavers DID NOT swore allegiance to no orc. They were part of the Kirin Tor, they were neutral, they served as liaisons between the horde and the Kirin Tor, but their loyalty was ultimately to Dalaran. Need I remind you that it was precisely the sunreaver vote that moved Dalaran to help the alliance? if they all swore allegiance to garrosh they would not have cast the vote to help the alliance.

Aethas himself reminds us of this during the 5.1 questline where he says that the elves have been friends of dalaran for 2000 years, and that's not something he's gonna casually toss aside on the whims of a warmonger.

I mean no offense when I say this man, but you, along with quite a lot of people KEEP mixing Silvermoon Elves, with Sunreaver Elves, which are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FACTIONS. Yes they're friendly with one another, and they're all made of the same race, but that's where the similarities end. The guys who stole the divine bell were the Reliquary who are loyal to Silvermoon, who are loyal to the horde. The ones who took the brunt of the alliance's wrath were the Sunreaver Elves who were loyal to the Kirin Tor who is loyal to Dalaran, a neutral faction.

The double-agent was just that, a double agent, who did not represent the rest of the sunreavers.

and if they did not resist they would not have been killed.

This is also more BS. Already the elves had been wrongly imprisioned in the violent hold pending mass execution in the past with no trial, and no crime commited. Do you honestly expect EVERY SINGLE ONE of the loyal citizens of dalaran who just happened to be blood elves to be placed again on a prison with no trial? Also the "would not had been killed" is also more BS. On the sewers of dalaran the civilians were not fighting back and that didn't stopped the Silver Covenant murderers from torturing them, killing them, and beating them to a bloody pulp.

Lastly, these very same Silver Covenant thugs blocked all exits to the city to prevent them from leaving.

To summarize, we have high elves led by her own sister turning on the elves that sided with orcs, some of whom later betrayed their allies on the orders of said orc, an orc who later turns out to have sold himself to old gods and trying to basically take over the world with a Horde of orcs. So, why would she side with the people who, in turn, sided with the ones who basically confirmed her every prejudice about orcs? Because a human under his own directive locked up the greatest traitor to her nation? Or because elves basically engaged in a city state's civil war against each other? We keep in mind she is, in fact, irrational and prejudiced.

Nice way to summarize it. Now here's mine:

To summarize: We have the nation of quel'thalas being wiped to the ground by an army led by the former prince of lordaeron, we then have the army of quel'thalas aiding the alliance in fighting this enemy, only to be locked up for no reason other than bigotry. Then the alliance rather than make reparations, or offer any form of aid, or condemn the actions of garithos, or do ANYTHING to demonstrate to the blood elves that they're still allies, instead left them to rot, and did jack squat to help the blood elves reclaim their nation.

These same elves then, in a move of cooperation, joined the Kirin Tor, a neutral faction to alleviate tensions between both sides, worked tirelessly to end quite a lot of threats to azeroth, and were even serving as liaisons in negotiations to bring Quel'thalas back to the alliance.

how were they repaid? Mass murder, torture, incarceration, suspension of civil rights, confiscation of property, and persecuted by a crime they didn't made.

Who reclaimed Silvermoon from the scourge? The blood elves. Who reignited the Sunwell? the blood elves. Who have been working tirelessly to restore the forests of Quel'thalas back to their former splendor? the blood elves. Who have been backstabbed by the alliance TWICE? the blood elves.

And you still think Alleria is gonna sympathize more with the high elves just cuz her sister is in there? When they did NOTHING to help the motherland, and instead have spent the last 10 years complaining and playing victim? and aiding the same faction that has twice screwed them over? seriously?

Post by Skreeran

Still gotta agree with Money here, Rank.

I think that what Jaina did to the Sunreavers was wrong.

I don't think Alleria tries as hard to be impartial as I do though.

Post by Rankkor

Post by Skreeran

I don't think Alleria tries as hard to be impartial as I do though.

She's not impartial. Anyone who screws over with her kingdom earns her Wrath.

And here I lay the question: Who has harmed more Quel'thalas? The alliance? or the Horde?

The former, backstabbing her people twice and doing NOTHING to help reclaim it from th scourge, the latter, helping rebuild and protect the forests and the kingdom.

Come on, its not rocket science.She's been gone for 20+ years. In her mind, it's the Horde who's hurt Quel'thalas more. And if you think she's going to sit down and listen to the Horde make their case, you have a lot more faith in her reasoning ability than I do.

Post by Rankkor

She's been gone for 20+ years. In her mind, it's the Horde who's hurt Quel'thalas more. And if you think she's going to sit down and listen to the Horde make their case, you have a lot more faith in her reasoning ability than I do.

Sooner or later she has to catch up on what she's been missing on. And if you seriously think she's gonna let slide all the stuff the alliance did (or failed to do) for her people, then you have a lot more faith in her capacity to forgive than I do.

Bear in mind that Silvermoon was sore at the alliance because they felt they didn't do enough to protect their forests in the second war. That should let you know how much they prioritize their kingdom.

Now consider her reaction when she finds out that her kingdom was ravaged and the alliance did nothing. You REALLY think she's gonna let that slide? and that's not mentioning the other stuff the alliance has done to Silvermoon. Again, you're putting way too much faith in her capacity to forgive.

Post by Skreeran

Sooner or later she has to catch up on what she's been missing on. And if you seriously think she's gonna let slide all the stuff the alliance did (or failed to do) for the Blood Elves, then you have a lot more faith in her capacity to forgive than I do.Fixed that for you.

You're assuming she's going to immediately side with the Blood Elves.

Who joined the Horde. Whom she hates more than anything else in the whole world.

Remember how Vereesa hated the Blood Elves (talking before Rhonin here) because they used Fel? What makes you assume Alleria will be more tolerant?

Bear in mind that Silvermoon was sore at the alliance because they felt they didn't do enough to protect their forests in the second war. That should let you know how much they prioritize their kingdom.Protect their forest from the Horde. Remember that that's who Alleria hates most of all.

Now consider her reaction when she finds out that her kingdom was ravaged and the alliance did nothing. You REALLY think she's gonna let that slide? and that's not mentioning the other stuff the alliance has done to Silvermoon. Again, you're putting way too much faith in her capacity to forgive.You're putting to much faith in her capacity to forgive the Horde. She hates them so goddamn much it's not even funny. If she absolutely has to have a beef with the Alliance, then she's going to end up a crazy loner who just kills everyone. She'll never, ever, EVER forgive the Horde. Ever. Ever. Ever.

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever.

Post by oneforthemoney

Ah yes, the mighty Alliance who were clearly in a position to help the blood elves immediately after the Third War, despite Stormwind only recently getting back on their feet after being razed by orcs, most of their nations on the other end of the continent or across the sea, blocked by the Plaguelands crawling with Scourge and the Forsaken nation, and engaged in civil matters that frequently almost toppled their own governments - when they had governments - or led to civil war. Yes, clearly they were in the ideal position to aid them.

And I would remind you, Rank, whose actions led to the extinguished Sunwell's powers by using it as a demon's portal? The blood elves. Who reignited the Sunwell? A Naaru the blood elves had imprisoned and up to that point been feeding off of. Who induced and gave the power to this Prince of Lordaeron to lead an army into their nation? An undead orc. How did these neutral blood elves who joined the Kirin Tor serve? By harbouring two agents who stole weapons of mass destruction twice, and used their resources to do it. Who backstabbed the Kirin Tor twice? Sunreavers.

Honestly though Rank, it's absurd that she would join the Horde. If Valeera did return, and did feel sympathy for the blood elves, she would pressure for them to Leave the Horde, since all their recent troubles have come from that association, and they don't really require the Horde anymore. Theirs was an alliance of convenience, and it seems to have become pretty damn inconvenient.

Post by Rankkor

/shrug

I disagree. We will see when she shows up, but me? I don't think she's gonna let it slide what the alliance has done.

Post by Rankkor

Who backstabbed the Kirin Tor twice? Sunreavers.

Following that lovely logic of yours, the church of holy light betrayed the alliance during cataclysm, and so did the druids of darnassus.

Ohhhh wait, when its an alliance faction, if they have one traitor, taht's an isolated case, but if its a horde faction, one traitor makes everyone traitor too. is that correct?

sheehs.

The Sunreavers were loyal citizens of dalaran, and it was DALARAN that backstabbed THEM. Get the facts straight man.

General Lore Discussions

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