General Lore Discussions

Post by Adamsm

The Wyrmrest Accord dissolving had nothing to do with Thrall.And the reuniting was due to Thrall snapping Alexstraza out of her funk by using hither-unseen powers of showing the past....and not you know, the obvious choice of Nozdormu.

The vision of the future were the old gods won, as well as Ysera's awakening from the dream had nothing to do with thrall.Until she had another vision where Thrall was needed to stand in for Deathwing....and only Thrall apparently.

The election of the new aspect of magic had nothing to do with thrall (yes he was there, big deal, he had no say in the voting, nor any real influence among the blue dragons other than being a guest of kalec. He was merely a guest. To give an parallel example: Jaina was present on the wedding of Malfurion and Tyrande. That doesn't mean she was the reason it happened.)Without Thrall's pick me up to Kalec, he never would have made the speech he did, which resulted in him becoming the new Aspect.

Again man, its ok if you don't like him, but don't bash an entire book as terrible just because of it.Again, I went back and re-read the book....and just like the first time I read it, still wasn't impressed.

See, I love how it's fine to bash Knaak, mock his books, and act like he's the worse there is...and then when Golden falls from grace, dozens of excuses are offered up, even as she put s out crap books.

Post by H3Knuckles

...I will admit though that the real deal-breaker for me in that book is if the purge of dalaran is brought up AT ALL. I'm still upset that jaina pulled that off and then got absolutely ZERO fallout for it.

Whenever a horde leader does something bad, EVERYONE (Again, ingame and out of it) calls them out on it and they suffer a repercussion of some form. But here Jaina did something just a few steps shorter of the culling of strathholm and not only she still keeps her position of leadership, she also gets to play the poor victim during the trial? gimme a break. She needs to be slapped. HARD.

if that doesn't happen, then THAT is what's gonna ruin the book for me.

Um, what? When has Sylvanas ever been called to task for her misdeeds? Aside from having some Kor'kron posted around Undercity who then promptly did nothing while she started mass-producing plague bombs.

While I may not share your vehemence towards Jaina, I completely agree that she's essentially become a villain now. But let's not pretend that the Horde doesn't have a karma Houdini of its own.

Post by Rankkor

Exactly.

Tides of war was a weak book, I can't really say its as good as Golden's previous books, but it was at least readable. I've given up entirely on ever reading anything by Knaak again because his books are just atrocious, the pacing is horrible, his prose is tacky (Who uses "alluring orbs" to describe eyes? Seriously) he spends WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time describing the scenery, his fight sequences are boring, and here's the one that grates my nerves the most: he over-idealizes his manly HUMAN protagonists (Main culprits are Rhonin and Varian) and goes way out of his way to dehumanize and bestialize (is that even a word? o_O) any orc character.

if I had a dime for every time he called Broxigar an unwashed stinky bruttish thuggish animal, I'd have a lot of dimes. I coudln't even sympathize with Thura Saurfang because again, due to being an orc, he only kept focusing on how much she stinks, how much she's ugly, how much she's an animal, etc etc.

But hey, human protagonists are Paragons of Perfection. Chiseled Adonises straight out of a Greek Poet's wet dream.

Also, one thing I really like about golden, despite her apparent "decline" is that in her books she always gets in the heads of whoever is speaking. You can see the points of view of whoever she's narrating from. This is seen perfectly on The Shattering, where when she's narrating a line of thought by Varian, the horde races are monsters, freaks, assassins and demons that need to die, but when narrating a line of thought by Baine, the horde is described differently.

Now, here's what made the Twilight of the Aspects book an enjoyable read for me.

1: Fight scenes. The only fight that wasn't awesome for me was the one against Chromatus (Mostly due to the abusive beam spam) but every fight scene SPECIALLY those involving Alternate!Blackmoore were amazingly well described and edgy, and suspenseful, and overall well paced.

2: Plot Twists. This book came packed with several ones that nobody saw coming (Death of Krasus, Benedictus being a traitor, etc etc) as oneforthemoney said, its a shame that some of these twists werent exploited for all their worth (specially benedictus) but as far as the book goes, they did their job well.

3: Powerful scenes. I really choked up a little bit when Thrall goes to the caverns of time and has to relive the murder of his parents but unable to do anything lest he causes a paradox. Having the power to save the ones he loves, yet willingly choosing to let go for the greater good, that was a great scene, right up there with what I consider the best scene written by golden (When Ner'zhul confronts the REAL ancestors and they reveal he's been deceived, in Rise of the Horde). This was not the only good powerful scene. I'll admit there were a couple of scenes that were quite bad (Anything involving aggra >_<) but there were plenty of powerful ones too.

4: This one deserves a section of its own: it dispelled the myth that some players were having that Thrall was holding together the maelstrom all by himself. The book showed that there were several dozen shaman of the earthen ring there, and they all took turns to keep it stabilized.

I could go on but the bottom line is: While this book wasn't as great as Rise of the Horde, Lord of the Clans, or The Shattering, it was still an enjoyable book. I don't feel it deserves to be lumped right next to Cycle of Hatred in terms of badness.

Post by Rankkor

See, I love how it's fine to bash Knaak, mock his books, and act like he's the worse there is...and then when Golden falls from grace, dozens of excuses are offered up, even as she put s out crap books.

Here's the main thing man: My main beef with Knaak's books is unrelated to the plot. The plot may or may not be great, but his writing is terrible. See my previous post as to why (Bad pacing, bad fight scenes, spends too much time describing, overidealizes male humans etc).

Even if the plot of any of his books is any good, the way he writes them makes them really hard to read.

Golden is the opposite. The plot of her books may or may not be enjoyable (It wasn't very pleasant to read how the orcs became slaves to the legion in Rise of the Horde. That was one very depressing book) but her writing is solid. Spends just enough time describing stuff, the fight sequences are pretty darned good (if a bit too graphical at times) the pacing is just fine, the dialogs are pretty good, she lets us see what everyone is thinking not just the main protagonist, etc.

I guess her main flaw is that she can't write a decent romance even if her life depended on it.

In the meantime, your beef with Golden is almost exclusively related to not liking where the plot is going (I could be wrong about this) rather than whether or not the books is/are readable or not.

Post by Adamsm

In the meantime, your beef with Golden is almost exclusively related to not liking where the plot is going (I could be wrong about this) rather than whether or not the books is/are readable or not.I had to force myself to read Tides of War, and Twilight of the Aspects did not hold my interest....she's gone down hill Rank, and that teaser from War Crimes shows it even more.

As I've said multiple times, I enjoy the Knaak books: When I read Dawn of the Aspects, I could not put it down. It was a great read and other then having to have Jaina/Kalec thing in there(which he handled a #$%^ ton better then Golden did), he hit it out of the park.

So there it is: I'll admit that Rise of the Horde, Lord of the Clans and Warrior Made are amazing works by Golden. The Shattering was an excellent read. But the other two? Stinkers, and we're heading for stinker number three.

Post by H3Knuckles

So, speaking as someone who has never even attempted to read a Knaak book because the synopses alone made me want to wretch, I do have to say that I loved the Sunwell trilogy manga. I also have some of... is it "Warcraft Legends?" The anthology comics which have a story or two by him, those were also good. Is Knaak simply missing his true calling as a comicbook writer ("graphic novelist")?

Post by Rankkor

Post by Adamsm

Sunwell Trilogy, Shadow Wings and Mage are all good....the Saga of Trag Highmountain? Not so much.

But really, that is where Blizzard needs to start pulling writers from; there were a lot of amazing writers who worked on the Legends stories that I would love to see get book deals and write more stuff for Warcraft.

Post by Skreeran

See, I love how it's fine to bash Knaak, mock his books, and act like he's the worse there is...and then when Golden falls from grace, dozens of excuses are offered up, even as she put s out crap books.Nah, I agree that Golden hasn't been putting out very good books. I wasn't a fan of Thrall: TotA or Tides, and this new one looks like it won't be any good either.

Still, I am capable of reading her books, start to finish. Knaak, on the other hand, I cannot, for the life of me, get through. I paid money for these, and there's lore in them (even though hardly any of it makes it into the actual game), but no matter how many times I pick them up and try to read them, I exhaust myself and can't finish them.

This isn't about me defending Goldan and spurning Knaak. This is about Golden's books being bad but readable, and me being unable to get even halfway through any of Knaak's.

Post by oneforthemoney

I liked Moon of the Spider.

Post by Stabhorn

I thought the War of the Ancients trilogy was awesome; I haven't gotten the chance to read any other books by Knaak or Golden.

Post by Rankkor

I thought the War of the Ancients trilogy was awesome; I haven't gotten the chance to read any other books by Knaak or Golden.

You REALLY should read the Golden book "Rise of the Horde".

Specially now that we're going back to Draenor in WoD. It will get you familiarized with plenty of lore figures we are sure to find waiting for us on that planet. And its by far my third favorite book by her (Second one being The Shattering, and number 1 being Lord of the Clans)

I'm currently re-reading Rise of the Horde, and my god, its still as awesome as the first time. Dat scene when Ner'zhul finds out he's been lied to by Kil'jaeden is really powerful and well written.

Post by morginar

And its by far my third favorite book by her (Second one being The Shattering, and number 1 being Lord of the Clans)

What rank does The Last Guardian get?.

And whats your top 5?

(Not sure how accurate my spanish was)

lol :P Not much. Here, lemme help you.

you're starting to sound like Rank Perdón?
Sorry Rank :P I appreciate you, but as an Alliance gal I'm unamused about how much you rag on us.

Si si señorita.

Pero estas equivocada, yo no soy un fan de las facciones para nada, yo apoyo a las razas. Los Elfos Nocturos pre-nerf eran mis favoritos, y ahora los Elfos Sanguinarios son #1

Respondiendo a por que no me gusta la alianza (Humanos), no me gusta su hipocresia, y su actitud "Mas santo que tu" Legal Bueno. Y eso de convertir a la horda en villanos solo por que son sus oponentes. (Aparentemente dos facciones moralmente grises no pueden ir a la guerra unos con otros)

Y me caen mal los humanos

Demasiados humanos en la alianza. Acaparando el centro de atención como adictos a la metanfetamina.

There. Much better =)

Love it. =D

I thought the War of the Ancients trilogy was awesome; I haven't gotten the chance to read any other books by Knaak or Golden.

I read WoA mainly for I am fan of "Elfos Nocturos". Though in my opinion too much focus on the Best and sexiest (not) mage ever Rhonin. And the timetravelers.
Broxigar was a beastal emo kamikaze, not much more than that.
Jarod taking too big role and felt like he replaced Maiev (No screen time) and Tyrande (Damsel in distress, with the superpower of healing) From geting any leading roles. Malfurion... Just Ughhh...
And no gendersplit society beond the temple.

But that is just my opinion. The books could have been done beter.

Post by Adamsm

The Last Guardian is the best Warcraft book out there.

Post by Stabhorn

Post by Rankkor

I intend to get them all one day, I just need to get some money :/

Start with Rise of the Horde. Specially now that we're about to head into WoD.

The Last Guardian is the best Warcraft book out there.

Not for me, Lord of the Clans is the best warcraft book for me.

Last Guardian is still very high up there easily on my top 5.

What rank does The Last Guardian get?.

And whats your top 5?

my personal top 5 books are:

1: Lord of the clans

2: The Shattering

3: Rise of the Horde

4: The Last Guardian

5: Beyond the Dark Portal

I don't really have any criticism for TLG, other than it didn't showed enough of the first war (Though I suppose that's understandable given that the focus was on Medivh and Garona and Khadgar)

I read WoA mainly for I am fan of "Elfos Nocturos". Though in my opinion too much focus on the Best and sexiest (not) mage ever Rhonin. And the timetravelers.
Broxigar was a beastal emo kamikaze, not much more than that.
Jarod taking too big role and felt like he replaced Maiev (No screen time) and Tyrande (Damsel in distress, with the superpower of healing) From geting any leading roles. Malfurion... Just Ughhh...
And no gendersplit society beond the temple.

This right here is my main complaint about WoA. They turned one of the most badass women in the lore into a Lady Yuna clone. Worse still, this change spilled over into the game, where Tyrande is little more than Malfurion's shadow.

Post by morginar

They turned two of the most badass women in the lore into a
They butchered Maiev too in that book. And in time they did it to Sylvanas and Jaina....

So now all the female characters from WC3 are tarnished.

Well Lady Vashj isn't though she doesn't make too much sence in WoA as a Ashzara fanatic: As she Betrays Ashzara and follows Illidan. Maybe she didn't like old gods and squids?

3: Rise of the Horde
Haen't bothered reading it yet... Maybe I should.
5: Beyond the Dark Portal
After Day of the Dragon i swore a oath never to read cliche female elf and human male shipings. Honestly a elf x elf ship is rare and original in pomparison to Arwen and Aragorn. Is the book any good even?

...the focus was on Medivh and Garona and Khadgar
It was all from young trusts viewpoint. And you forgot Moroes, unforgivable!

Post by Adamsm

As she Betrays Ashzara and follows Illidan. Maybe she didn't like old gods and squids?Actually...she didn't; she joined with Illidan on the command of Azshara, as what the Naga were doing was an experiment that was possibly being set up for Azeroth. Listen to her when you fight her in SSC; she tells you then she's still loyal to the Light of Lights.

Post by morginar

Her last words are Lord Illidan I am sorry

Don't mention any squid queens in the sound files on wowhead.

Post by Rankkor

3: Rise of the Horde
Haen't bothered reading it yet... Maybe I should.

You should. You REALLY should. Specially now that we're gonna hit draenor. The book lets you get acquainted with many prominent figures that will likely play a large role on the next expansion.

5: Beyond the Dark Portal
After Day of the Dragon i swore a oath never to read cliche female elf and human male shipings. Honestly a elf x elf ship is rare and original in pomparison to Arwen and Aragorn. Is the book any good even?

Its pretty good. And about the Human X Elf thingie:

1: it doesn't dominate the entire book (Though much like vereesa, alleria is an obnoxious jackass during THE ENTIRE BOOK. She has absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and her whole character can be summarized as: She bit****s and whines during the entire thing. What does turalyon sees in her? hell if I know)

2: the book is 50% from the point of view of the alliance expedition, and 50% from the horde forces, just like the previous book which was 50-50 showing Doomhammer and Lothar as protagonists.

Its probably due to bias but I enjoyed a lot more the horde parts on Beyond the Dark Portal, mainly because it showed Ner'zhul and most importantly, Grom. Grom is an absolute badass in this book, and I really wish he was like this in warcraft 3, as opposed to the watered down Leeroy Jenkins clone we had.

...the focus was on Medivh and Garona and Khadgar
It was all from young trusts viewpoint. And you forgot Moroes, unforgivable!

lol. I didn't forget him, but he was just a character from the book (one of the best ones though). He wasn't a protagonist, and the events of the book weren't shown from his perspective.

General Lore Discussions

Post Reply