General Lore Discussions

Post by Snake387

Why? does it sting to know your faction isn't pure dovey-white holy holy? That its just as capable of the same barbarism they accuse the horde of doing?

No, it's just that using something at the very least debatable isn't such a good premise to use in arguments and conclusions.

I said "purge the CHURCH" As in, the bishops, the clerics, the actual members of the church. It being a religion has nothing to do with it. In fact, it makes them even more suspect as few people are as capable of zealotry as a religion.

Then you'd still have to kill all those lovely priests acting as medics for you in a war and all those nice paladins fighting for you. And then you'd have to kill the leader of the Dark Irons and the Prince of the Alliance, slightly undiplomatic, right? And then there would be protests from people who follow the Church making the Defias even stronger and causing a civil war in the Eastern Kingdoms and even if you win, you've lost all those civilians who are making your weapons and selling you food. In the middle of a war. Such a great idea.

What if the druids of the flames left a few of their people inside to act as double-agents? ever think of that?

You could say that the scourge did that to the forsaken, or the followers of Ragnaros to the Dark Irons, or some of the Burning Legion's Orc supporters to the Orcs, or a follower of one of the bigger troll tribes to the Darkspear, or heck, those Darkspear who followed the Witch-doctor instead of Vol'jin and there's probably much, much more. And the Druids of the Flame are pretty recognisable from normal Night Elves.

But noooooo, well over a third of the druids turned traitor and NOTHING was done about the rest, no investigation, no incarceration, no punishment of any kind.

Read above. And if the rest of the Night Elven druids were punsihed then the Night Elves would have left the Alliance (again not good in a war since the Night Elves were the largest military force in Kalimdor) meaning that after Theramore the Alliance would have next to no holdings in Kalimdor.

Jaina ported in, and without mediating or saying a single word *BANG* you're dead, and *BANG* you're dead, she killed in cold blood two of Aethas' bodyguards

Because if Aethas tried to fight back she'd be outnumbered, by a lot. Even Jaina can't handle six skilled mages all at the same time, alone.

Why not? Kirin tor did the same with the sunreaver a third of dalarans population.

Kirin Tor could survive without the Sunreavers though, they'd done it for a looong time after all. I don't think Stormwind could survive with most of it's population dead or in prison. Heck, I don't think they have enough cells.

Who to say that they havent? They could have sent a good spy and have the operation unknown to the player.

If they have they've failed miserably then.

Didn't stop the americans and soviets to have jolly times together when they both battled the nazi-germans. And you don't shot your allies.

World War II was before the Cold War. And the Americans were mostly killing the Japanaese anyway.

Yes. Dalaran is his home after all.

So when people get evicted from their homes they're being illegally imprisoned, hunted down and attacked. Yeah, no.

and then without giving any explanation, or even hearing him out, or doing any investigation, or at least let him prove his innocence she told him to pack up and leave.

Yeah because it's totally unsuspicious that there's a sunreaver portal and a dangerous artifact is stolen at the same time especially when the leader was supposed to have done an investigation anyway.

Fanlyn created a portal to darnassus and he was only able to bring with him 5 silvermoon mages (notice how they're SILVERMOON MAGES, not sunreavers) and the player.

Wrong. It's specificially said that Fanlyr opened a Sunreaver portal to Darnassus and he tried to hide his tracks and failed. So why did the Sunreavers have a portal to Darnassus again? And if Fanlyr was such a low-level mage how did he manage to hack into the Sunreaver portal network without inside help?

I never said otherwise, I'm debating your (badly backed up) point that Aethas "Developed an attitude" when Jaina is fifty times worse. Not only aethas is polite and cooperative with his allies, he doesn't display any belligerence or hostility to his enemies. Unlike Jaina who went full ragemode on friend and foe alike. So before accusing others of "developing attitudes" look at your own ranks.

Exactly. Aethas is always polite and co-operative and then suddenly he answers back to Jaina and says, "This is our home too." And teleports way.I'm not saying it's not within his right but you wouldn't expect Aethas to behave like that would you unless he knows something and is trying to hide it.

This despite the fact that she is in no position to be bossing around Aethas who was her equal as a member of the Council of Six.

Wrong again. Jaina is the leader of the Council of Six so naturally she has more rights than Aethas.

He was completely silent during the confrontation between Lor'themar and Jaina in the isle of thunder, he never once raises his voice or acts like a butthurt jackass about the whole thing.

But no, lets have him shift nerviously at the very unstable, very psychotic, very delusional, very much angry, super powerful mage holding the staff of the most powerful archmage in history, supercharged with the last power of a demigod, specifically calling out for his head on a plate, and suddenly HE HAS TO BE GUILTY DAMMIT!

a) Stop putting your headcanon into your aguements, Jaina is not unstable, psychotic or delusional.

b)Then why does he shift RIGHT after Lor'themar says the Sunreavers knew nothing? If he was shifting uncomfortably for those reasons then why didn't he do it when Jaina was speaking or when she started having an arguement with Lor'themar? Geeze, it's kind of obvious what Blizzard were implying, that Aethas knew something.

Hell, the blood elves were even willing to let go of their biggest grudge on their shoulders and rejoin the humans, this after another human had tried to genocide their entire race.

I think that Blood Elves biggest grudge is against trolls.

And besides, it's their 'forgetting' of grudges that brings me to my next point. You think Genn is a snob who only joined the Alliance when he needed to, but the Blood Elves are ten times worse. When they're in danger they suddenly suffer from amnesia and forget all those age-long grudges they've had. I mean First War? They did nothing. Second War? They only helped when THEY were under attack. Third War? They only helped when Silvermoon was destroyed and THEY'D been attacked. TBC? They joined those Orcs who burned down their forests, trolls who as a race they've been fighting since their exile from Kalimdor, and forsaken who are just as bad asthe scourge they're fighting. All to get the Ghostlands back. Then when Garrosh starts dissrespecting them they try to rejoin the Alliance which have Night Elves, a clear enemy, humans who one of tried to genocide their race and the High Elves after their blood. Totally loyal and caring about grudges.

And trust me, no matter how big the offense was between High and Blood was, it pales in comparison between the grudge between Blood elves and Humans. If the Blood elves could learn to let go of even their grudge against humanity, then the high elves really truly have ZERO excuse for their behavior.

Actually, they do. The Blood Elves only released their grudge against humans when they needed their help. And only one human tried to genocide their race plus they've had a good relationship with humans for a long time. The High Elves were kicked out of their homes for no reason other than they had different beliefs and they don't need the Blood Elves help so they're not going to forget their grudge any time soon. You say the purge was bad? This was waaay worse.

Come on, the blood elves had given them free access to the sunwell in exchange for absolutely nothing, what reason could they have to think they were going after them again?

Ever heard of the saying too good to be true?

Post by Adamsm

Jaina is not unstable, psychotic or delusional.Um..yes she is; she went ape &*!@ insane after the Mana Bomb went off; Tides of War is a horrific book, mainly because of how it glossed over the fact that she would be on a long recovery of PTSD after that. And the way her moods whiplash around show instability. Her deluisonality comes from the fact that she still thinks it is a good idea to completely wipe out the entire Horde.

Post by Snake387

she went ape &*!@ insane after the Mana Bomb went off; Tides of War is a horrific book, mainly because of how it glossed over the fact that she would be on a long recovery of PTSD after that.

Even Aethas agrees to make her the leader of the Kirin Tor and she doesn't show any signs of extreme insanity after her city got blown up with a horrific bomb except a deep loathing of the Horde. Which is understandable.

Her deluisonality comes from the fact that she still thinks it is a good idea to completely wipe out the entire Horde.

Isn't it. Because a couple of expansions later, after the Horde have risen off the ground, there's going to be ANOTHER war and it won't be pretty for the Alliance. They'd probably lose more people than they would dismantling the horde. Heck, they might be the ones begging the Horde for mercy.

Post by Adamsm

Even Aethas agrees to make her the leader of the Kirin Tor and she doesn't show any signs of extreme insanity after her city got blown up with a horrific bomb except a deep loathing of the Horde. Which is understandable.Well except for seeing enemies everywhere, giving Vereesa permission to capture or kill citizens, taking away their homes, and thinking it's a good idea to start a war right away after Garrosh falls; oh yeah, that's all signs of a 'stable' person....

Isn't it. Because a couple of expansions later, after the Horde have risen off the ground, there's going to be ANOTHER war and it won't be pretty for the Alliance. They'd probably lose more people than they would dismantling the horde. Heck, they might be the ones begging the Horde for mercy.And where exactly are the Horde races suppose to go? Or is the Alliance going to send more people to act as guards for their lands....or are you suggesting that genocide is the best bet?

She is nuts; but since Sylvanas is insane, I guess Blizzard thinks the lady leaders need to all be psychotic.

Post by Snake387

And where exactly are the Horde races suppose to go?

The non-violent ones (anyone who surrendered, like the taurens, goblins, trolls, pandaren and maybe blood elves would) would get integrated into the Alliance under a unified government. The Orcs who don't fight would get integrated into the Alliance. Sylvanas would, I'm afraid have to be killed or imprisoned and if the forsaken decide to fight against the Alliance, they'd be killed too or if they wisen up and decide to retreat back to the Trisfal Glades and be docile they get to live too. So everyone's happy.

giving Vereesa permission to capture or kill citizens, taking away their homes

Well she was sort of justified, in the fact that after an investigation, they'd be let go. Because having spies in a potentially dangerous city with portals to a whole load of Alliance capitals isn't exactly a clever idea.

and thinking it's a good idea to start a war right away after Garrosh falls

It's better than fighting another war in the future with the Horde back on their feet.

Post by Adamsm

The non-violent ones (anyone who surrendered, like the taurens, goblins, trolls, pandaren and maybe blood elves would) would get integrated into the Alliance under a unified government. The Orcs who don't fight would get integrated into the Alliance. Sylvanas would, I'm afraid have to be killed or imprisoned and if the forsaken decide to fight against the Alliance, they'd be killed too or if they wisen up and decide to retreat back to the Trisfal Glades and be docile they get to live too. So everyone's happy.Why in the holy #$%^ would any of the Horde members accept that, especially after what the Alliance has done to them over the years? That is pure madness, And the Forsaken would fight back if they Queen was killed...just as the Humans would fight back if the Horde won and executed Varian.

Well she was sort of justified, in the fact that after an investigation, they'd be let go. Because having spies in a potentially dangerous city with portals to a whole load of Alliance capitals isn't exactly a clever idea.Yet, they'd still be locked up...and what happened the last time the Blood Elves were locked up by Alliance forces in Dalaran? Or right; they were scheduled to be executed, and would have all died if Lady Vashj and her Naga hadn't shown up to save them. It almost seems as Jaina did this intentionally as a way to set them up; and if that's true, that's another strike towards her sanity.

It's better than fighting another war in the future with the Horde back on their feet.....Are you kidding? The Alliance has just spent a grueling two years fighting the Horde*; both sides are weakened, and if they continued to push, they would ended up destroying each other, which leaves the planet open to invasion from any of the other threats out there.

*: As the war kicked off again in Cata, and was continued in Pandaria.

Post by Ellinda

Post by Adamsm

Post by Skreeran

And where exactly are the Horde races suppose to go?

The non-violent ones (anyone who surrendered, like the taurens, goblins, trolls, pandaren and maybe blood elves would) would get integrated into the Alliance under a unified government. The Orcs who don't fight would get integrated into the Alliance. Sylvanas would, I'm afraid have to be killed or imprisoned and if the forsaken decide to fight against the Alliance, they'd be killed too or if they wisen up and decide to retreat back to the Trisfal Glades and be docile they get to live too. So everyone's happy.Wat.

No, just no... >_<

That's just not how occupied people work. Just look at Iraq or Afghanistan to see how hard it is to make a nice little ally out of an occupied country.

Post by Rankkor

I have a question ;3
In terms of lore-timeline, what is the best way to read the warcraft books?
And will the books actually teach me all of the lore properly?

I know a bunch of the lore already but I haven't been playing since vanilla cause my parents would not buy it for me at the time (I was like 9 or something back then) which I can understand.
I've been playing since wrath and I know some of the pre-wrath lore but I would like to get to know all the lore there is to find in books.

I'm also working on a story recap for a friend of mine, which you can read on this very board. Check my thread "World of Warcraft Story Recap Volume 1"

Volume 2 is on the way.

My recap only covers what happened after Wrath though, so anything between vanilla and the end of wrath is not covered by it.

Post by Ellinda

The Expanded Universe thread link in my sig gives the current reading list chronologically. The books, comics and manga will teach you the lore; you can also check wowpedia.org for more information as well.

Ah, thanks will check it out! :)

I'm also working on a story recap for a friend of mine, which you can read on this very board. Check my thread "World of Warcraft Story Recap Volume 1"

Sounds interesting, might check that out soon as well ;)

Post by 1014404

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Rankkor

And where exactly are the Horde races suppose to go? Or is the Alliance going to send more people to act as guards for their lands....or are you suggesting that genocide is the best bet?

Where ever they want. If someone proposes that the UN or the EU be dismantled they aren't proposing the annihilation of every country that is a member.

Problem is, "where ever they want" is always claimed by the alliance first.

Orcs lost the second war, were imprisoned, they escaped, rather than reignite the war, they left to some other land, and now the alliance hounds them in this new land.

Doesn't matter what new land is discovered, the horde is never allowed to lay claim to it because the alliance lays claim to it as well, so again, where is the horde supposed to go? as far as the alliance is concerned the entire planet belongs to them. (And they're sorely wrong about that)

Post by Adamsm

Post by 1014404

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Skreeran

I know right? I genocide'd peoplez, escaped prison, moved to another country, and now they still want me to go to jail. What kind of justice system works like that?You know that was more than 30 years ago, right? Most orcs today not only didn't participate in the First or Second Wars, but a good portion of them were actually born in the internment camps.

Or are you just judging an entire race as guilty?

Post by Adamsm

You seem stuck with the allusion that there are only two methods of responding to Horde hostility. Do nothing or slaughter every single hordie in the world. Is that really how wars are fought? War in WoW feels more like a playground fight.

The Orcs would not accept it; they would fight back. The Trolls would not accept it; they would fight back. The Tauren, after seeing so many of their tribes wiped out by the centaur, would fight back. The Forsaken, who lets be honest, would not be allowed to survive, would fight to the last to continue to be allowed to exist. The Blood Elves, who as a race, have seen way too much attempted genocide, would fight back. The Goblins...well, if the Alliance bought them off, may not fight back.

Just as the Alliance would not just lie down and surrender, the Horde would never do it...especially when you talk about the Alliance taking their lands/imprisoning them on them.

Post by EMPHaraljier

Hey, I know this is probably a stupid question, but do you guys think that its possible that a Shade could recover its corpse in any way?

Post by Rankkor

were imprisoned, they escaped, rather than reignite the war, they left to some other land, and now the alliance hounds them in this new land.

I know right? I genocide'd peoplez, did 30 years in prison, decided it was complete bulls*** that my kids would also have to pay for my crimes, further decided it was even more bulls*** to be physically and psychologically tortured every day for 30 years, left the prison, moved to another country to avoid troubles, and even though I've already paid DEARLY for my crimes by spending 30 years in a living hell, now they have the balls to want me to return to the jail, and bring my kids wiht me. What kind of justice system works like that?

Fixed it for you.

Hey, I know this is probably a stupid question, but do you guys think that its possible that a Shade could recover its corpse in any way?

Sylvannas was an incorporeal banshee for a while before she got her body back, so I'd say its possible.

Post by 1014404

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

General Lore Discussions

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