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Post by
oneforthemoney
Yes because living in filth, being dragged out of the camps to be forced slaves or fight to the death in the gladiator rings was such a good thing /roll eyes
All things considered, it was probably the best option considering all other feasible alternatives.
Post by
Lordplatypus
A: only one orc was involved in the gladiator rings.
He lost before
He did not die
B: Pretty sure all they did was manual labor to offset the cost of feeding them (Which wasn't enough btw). and they were more or less in withdrawal.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes because living in filth, being dragged out of the camps to be forced slaves or fight to the death in the gladiator rings was such a good thing /roll eyes
All things considered, it was probably the best option considering all other feasible alternatives.
A slow death or a fast death....not really that much of an alternative, since had Thrall never broke the Orcs free of the lethargy, they would have just wasted away in the camps, leaving only two 'free' clans on Azeroth, since at that time, there wasn't a way back to Draenor/Outland; it would have been extinction no matter what.
A: only one orc was involved in the gladiator rings.
He lost before
He did not die
B: Pretty sure all they did was manual labor to offset the cost of feeding them (Which wasn't enough btw). and they were more or less in withdrawal.
Wrong Platypus; there were mention of other orcs forced to fight in the Rings before Thrall(seen in Rise of the Lich King). They were still forced to be the slaves of the humans, and were not treated well.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Yes because living in filth, being dragged out of the camps to be forced slaves or fight to the death in the gladiator rings was such a good thing /roll eyes
All things considered, it was probably the best option considering all other feasible alternatives.
A slow death or a fast death....not really that much of an alternative, since had Thrall never broke the Orcs free of the lethargy, they would have just wasted away in the camps, leaving only two 'free' clans on Azeroth, since at that time, there wasn't a way back to Draenor/Outland; it would have been extinction no matter what.
As we saw in the warcraft three opening cinematic there were concerns amongst Alliance hierarchy about the lethargy affecting the orcs, but no one actually knew what it was.
Post by
Adamsm
As we saw in the warcraft three opening cinematic there were concerns amongst Alliance hierarchy about the lethargy affecting the orcs, but no one actually knew what it was.
And the only one to care was Antonidas, who was more interested in the why then seriously trying to cure them; every one else was fine with the orcs dying out in the camps.
Post by
oneforthemoney
As we saw in the warcraft three opening cinematic there were concerns amongst Alliance hierarchy about the lethargy affecting the orcs, but no one actually knew what it was.
And the only one to care was Antonidas, who was more interested in the why then seriously trying to cure them; every one else was fine with the orcs dying out in the camps.
Considering there was also a plague about and the orcs not in camps were wandering around sacrificing villagers to demons, its hardly surprising only the intellectual cared. Orcs were interred because literally no one else had any idea what to do with them, and at the time the government had far more pressing issues at hand.
Post by
Adamsm
Considering there was also a plague about and the orcs not in camps were wandering around sacrificing villagers to demons, its hardly surprising only the intellectual cared. Orcs were interred because literally no one else had any idea what to do with them, and at the time the government had far more pressing issues at hand.
Um...they were interred after the 2nd War, when there was still 14 years till the plague started. As per the
Ultimate Visual Guide
time line.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Considering there was also a plague about and the orcs not in camps were wandering around sacrificing villagers to demons, its hardly surprising only the intellectual cared. Orcs were interred because literally no one else had any idea what to do with them, and at the time the government had far more pressing issues at hand.
Um...they were interred after the 2nd War, when there was still 14 years till the plague started. As per the
Ultimate Visual Guide
time line.
I meant they had more pressing issues than their lethargy, Adamsm.
Post by
Adamsm
And the lethargy was still killing them, since it was taking away their will to live; that's what I meant by a slow death.
You mentioned that being put in the camps was better then the alternative...but death was going to result either way. At least had they been put to death after the war, they then wouldn't have been reduced to slaves and death fighters for the humans.
Post by
oneforthemoney
And the lethargy was still killing them, since it was taking away their will to live; that's what I meant by a slow death.
You mentioned that being put in the camps was better then the alternative...but death was going to result either way. At least had they been put to death after the war, they then wouldn't have been reduced to slaves and death fighters for the humans.
And the Alliance would have committed genocide. I should not have to explain this, but that is a bad thing to do, Adamsm. You could argue death would result anyway because they are
alive
, and living things tend to die.
Before the Alliance could be bothered with dealing with the sickness which was very slowly killing the people who rampaged across a continent, they would like to put their resources towards the one that is immediately killing their own people. It really is not that hard to comprehend where their priorities would lie.
Post by
Adamsm
And that's understandable...but it's not like the Camps were a 'good' choice either, as they were squalid pits of filth, manned by brutal bastards and run by one of the biggest bastards in the kingdom.
I just find it amusing that the Alliance is suppose to be seen as oh so merciful for not killing the orcs out right after the end of the Second War...yet, they were still setting them up to die anyways.
Without Thrall, it would have ended in genocide either way.
Post by
oneforthemoney
And that's understandable...but it's not like the Camps were a 'good' choice either, as they were squalid pits of filth, manned by brutal bastards and run by one of the biggest bastards in the kingdom.
I just find it amusing that the Alliance is suppose to be seen as oh so merciful for not killing the orcs out right after the end of the Second War...yet, they were still setting them up to die anyways.
Without Thrall, it would have ended in genocide either way.
Untrue. The difference being that it was not an intentional attempt to kill them. It was a mysterious sickness that affected no one other than the orcs, and whose cure was only known to be the reapplication of the very thing which caused it, demonic energy. Before another method could be devised by the Alliance, a plague broke out and the orcs broke themselves out.
As I said, the internment camps were not the best method. But realistically, it was the only one.
Post by
Monday
I have to agree with Money, here. What else could they have done? Draenor was destroyed. Quel'thalas and Lordaeron were in shambles, which was nothing compared to Stormwind. The orcs had just tried to wipe out the human race. Not just conquer, but destroy.
What were they supposed to do?
Kill them? Genocide? They didn't want to murder an entire race.
Let them roam free? And have them come back a few years later for another go (which sort of happened anyways)?
Send them back to Draenor? How? It was destroyed. Turalyon was gone, along with the entire Alliance Expedition.
The only reliable option was to imprison them for a time. The problem with that was the lethargy.
The other problem was that nobody knew it was going to happen. The Alliance can't be blamed for not knowing the cause of this mysterious disease that was destroying the orcs' bloodlust (which could have been seen as a good thing, too, considering what had happened to them when the orcs were in the midst of said lust).
You also can't blame them for not trying to seek a cure. Sure, the orcs were dying, but the only other option would be to cure the lethargy.
Which would make them warlike again.
Which would lead to another war. The Alliance doesn't WANT another war. They just fought two terrible, terrible wars. I can completely understand why they wouldn't want to cure their old foe, even if they were dying.
Post by
Adamsm
Then rather then stick them into camps, they should have put them into actual prisons; may have actually been better conditions then the cess pits that were used.
Post by
Skreeran
I agree that there probably wasn't an alternative to the camps, but that's not going to do anything to mend feelings of resentful orcs.
It's like explaining how dropping the atomic bombs on Japan probably ended the war sooner and meant that a horrible, miserable, bloody island assault of Japan never had to happen, and that lives were probably actually saved by doing it is not going to console a Hiroshima survivor at all.
Post by
Monday
Then rather then stick them into camps, they should have put them into actual prisons; may have actually been better conditions then the cess pits that were used.
How do we know that these prisons would be fully maintained and kept functioning?
And do you really think it's better to keep them locked in a cell than in the camp? At least in the camp they could move around and feel fresh air. In a prison, they would be confined to a small room with very little light or fresh air.
I don't deny that the camps were bad, but there's wasn't really anything that was better.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Then rather then stick them into camps, they should have put them into actual prisons; may have actually been better conditions then the cess pits that were used.
The result of the condition of the camps was not due to being internment camps, it was due to the sheer logistical nightmare of housing an entire people in secure locations. They were in all but name prisons, but cruder from the popular conception due to the necessity of building them quickly to house the orcs immediately rather than a decade after their surrender.
Post by
Adamsm
And yet for almost 12 years they kept them in that same squalor. Maybe right after the war they were bad, but nothing was really done to even attempt to improve it.
Post by
Monday
I'm not trying to justify the Alliance's actions, but I'm going to explain them:
Why should they bother improving the conditions for the orcs? This was a group that had just tried to wipe them from existence. Who had murdered their wives and children. Who had burned their cities and allied with the most monstrous creatures in all of the multiverse.
This was a group that did not deserve comfort or freedom. This was a group to be maintained and controlled.
Post by
Adamsm
Which was my point about the irony of some people pretending this was suppose to be the merciful choice for the Orcs.
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