General Lore Discussions

Post by Rankkor

Yeah, it would have been helpful to make the connection clearer, but I think part of the reason for that was because Blizzard couldn't be sure whether or not you (or your character) had ever done Shado-Pan Monastary before; so instead of weaving the timeline together better, they just decided not to confuse people and made it seem like he's somewhat bipolar.

It's worse if you're sent to him as of natural progression in Kun-Lai as you're pretty much sent there with a lot of accomplishments vs. Sha under your belt.

* * *

More Townlong Steppes exploration...

CLEARLY NO WOMAN WORKED ON MISTS OF PANDARIA.

F'real, the sheer "unintended" misogyny is ridiculous. Is there one female lore character that is remotely important that DOESN'T turn completely crazy? (Tyrande, I know, but she's been chickified into uselessness anyway which isn't much better.)

Sadly no.

If you are female, and in azeroth, you have only one out of 3 outcomes.

A: You go crazy, go over the Moral Event Horizon, and will eventually need to be put down. (Examples: Sylvannas, Maiev, and as of 5.1, Jaina)

B: You become a swooning fangirl of some dude. There to serve as his shadow, nanny and doormat (Examples: Tyrande, Sylvannas previous to cataclysm, Jaina during WOTLK)

C: You simply vanish. Nobody will make mention of you, and it doesn't matter what your deeds are, or how valorous you were, or how great an evil you vanquished, you will NEVER be heard from again once your role in the story is done. No cameos, nada. (Examples: Liandrin, Aponi, Zaela)

I really hate it that its come to this, but for the life of me, I can't remember a single woman who is actually important to the plot without meeting any of the previous 3 criteria.

And that fanart of Garrosh's head on a pike: I approve.

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Post by oneforthemoney

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Post by oneforthemoney

Most villains in WoW are crazy.

Vashj seemed fairly sane. Same with Onyxia. Blizz just doesn't seem to know how to write a woman well unless they're evil.

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Post by oneforthemoney

Most villains in WoW are crazy.

Vashj seemed fairly sane. Same with Onyxia. Blizz just doesn't seem to know how to write a woman well unless they're evil.

I'll give you Onyxia, but Vashj really never did anything in WoW aside from be a raid boss.

I think the like, one MAJOR female villain we actually have is Azshara, and guess what, SHE'S INSANE.

Well, all the major villains in WoW are mad. It's a fairly gender neutral phenomena. And Vashj did have some more character in W3. So since she didn't have enough screen time to be ruined in WoW, success?

Post by Adamsm

As seen in War of the Ancients, where Vashj tried to kill Tyrande because she was convinced that Tyrande was going to take her place as Azshara's right hand woman....she wasn't sane.

But then again, as Vashj is just the extension of Azshara's will, can't really do much about her; everything she did in Warcraft 3 and BC was at the command of Azshara after all.

Post by Rankkor

I really hate it that its come to this, but for the life of me, I can't remember a single woman who is actually important to the plot without meeting any of the previous 3 criteria.

Well...unless they were villains.

nope, I said without meeting any of the previous 3 criteria. If they're villains, they meet Criteria A.

:P

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Post by Rankkor

MoP has been doing it better on the average, at least on the small scale (all the good characters are on the small scale; generally they get ruined as soon as they get a big role). Taoshi, Foreman Mann, Shokia, Kiryn... Even Admiral Rogers made a good antihero. She's committed some war crimes (at least, she would have if there were any international laws regarding war crimes), but one can sympathize with her pretty easily as well, like a human Mankrik.

Speak for yourself yo'

I don't sympathize with that b***h AT ALL.

Buaah buah orcs killed my family, so I'm gonna kill every orc that draws breath.

Know how ridiculous that sounds? I can understand wanting revenge for the death of your family, but there's revenge, and then there's genocide. BIG DIFFERENCE between those, a difference she doesn't seem to grasp.

For me, she's just another garithos (Slightly less worse since she doesn't show any racism towards her own allies) and I can totally see her being killed at some point in this expansion. I don't really believe she's gonna accept any sort of peace with the horde, I can see her totally going rogue if any peace agreement is reached with the orcs. Just look at how eager she was about using Sha against the horde.

Mankrik was a more reasonable example because while not EVERYONE in the horde is a raving genocidal maniac as she believes, EVERYONE in the quillboar population are hostile to the rest of the world. They can't be reasoned with, and they don't really have any civilians. They are a hostile force that has cooperated with the scourge, and will attack on sight everything and everyone. So, wanting to wipe THOSE out seems slightly less crazy.

This woman however wants to wipe out the entire horde, simply because of the actions of SOME of them. And we know the ENTIRE horde is not like the quillboar.

So yeah, Sympathetic Antihero my ass.

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Post by morginar

I haven't encountered her. Where can I see this bastion of craziness?

Alliance pandaria starting quests, aboard the skyfire...

...And i feel that the alliance has grown arogant with that ship, the skyfire did litle against deathwing, it was the 25 random raiders, aspect dragons and ~~piccolo~~ Thrall. (who most of the time charged up the special beam canon).

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Post by Rankkor

Rankk, your horde bias is steaming hypocracy right now. The horde is all but founded on 'alliance killed my family, enslaved me etc. we should kill them all.' And even if it isn't the majority, there are so many horde like that in at least key roles, that it comes across as such. But the horde are good guys for it.

Not really. How many inside the horde ACTUALLY want to commit genocide against the alliance? The horde exists because each of these individual races faces annihilation if they are alone. Because the alliance can't let go of their prejudice, if they're not together, they face extinction.

Think about it for a second, if, when Thrall founded the new horde after breaking off the clans from the concentration camps, was basing himself on the principle of "Alliance killed my family, enslaved me, we should kill them all" then why did he brought them all to Kalimdor?

Time and time again the races that belong to the horde have tried to stay away from the alliance, and time and time again, third parties set the alliance against the horde (Such as the twilight hammer during the theramoore peace summit, or the druid gathering in ashenvale)

And its precisely the key roles that are AGAINST such a militaristic approach. Baine certainly has no quarrel against the alliance, so much that he risked his own neck, to warn them about the incoming attack on theramoore.

Vol'jin certainly has no quarrel against the alliance, actively working side by side with them against the zandalari.

Lor'themar, as much as he hated that the alliance almost genocided his race, was perfectly willing to put that aside, and rejoin them, (not to mention how silvermoon allowed high elves to enter the sunwell)

And Sylvannas? she's the only one who can be very reasonably argued wants to genocide the alliance, but not out of revenge, simply because her people can't reproduce (this DOES NOT justifies her actions, I'm only bringing it up, because, says you, all of the horde's key leadership wants to anihilate the alliance due to past actions)

If there's anyone here who has refused to let go of the past, and continue to judge the many, for the actions of a few, its the alliance. Any time they wanna genocide an entire race, based on the actions of a few, its been them (Garithos, Varian, and now Jaina) Thank god, not all of them are like that.

So no, the horde is not founded on the principle of "Alliance killed my family, and enslaved us, WE KILL THEM ALL". The horde is founded on the principle of "Those asshats are never gonna leave us alone, we best stick together if we want any chance of staying alive" If there wasn't any threat from the alliance, the horde would probably not even exist, specially after how much garrosh has alienated it and tore it apart with his own racism.

Paradoxically, if the horde didn't existed, the alliance would not exist either, as when they won the second war, they started to bicker and fight among themselves once more.

Moral of this post: DON'T DEAL IN ABSOLUTES. If a group of people killed your family, take your revenge on THOSE, don't just generalize EVERYONE as your enemy. That's as stupid as if a russian guy killed my family and I went on to hunt every single russian I met. That's crazy.

There is a crime that can be attributed to the horde however, and that crime is expansionism. They want to take by force lands that don't belong to them. This, however, applies ONLY to the forsaken and the orcs. Is it really justifiable to paint the rest of the horde with the same brush?

No one wins. This his the point Pandaria has been throwing in our faces from day one. No one is justified, no one wins, there is no happy ending as long as the war continues. Excuses are excuses, some better than others, but in the end as long as the horde AND alliance keep fighting, there will never be hope.

hey, I'm not arguing that. At no point I've said that there is a good guy here, I firmly consider both factions morally gray, and neither is justified in any way for their attacks. Specially garrosh. I'm saying that Admiral Rogers is NOT a sympathetic character, because she's clearly getting a female boner out of killing orcs, and wants to stop at nothing short of complete genocide.

Besides, at this point the horde is pretty much being held hostage by garrosh, as anyone who dares to say anything against him, or defies his orders, is quickly killed. As seen with Vol'jin, and with those 3 who were killed in the razorhill inn, or with the trolls in the echo isles, or with the infinite amount of examples I could pull here.

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Post by Rankkor

The point of Pandaria isn't well-made either, and since MoP isn't in the can just yet.

Well, yes, we haven't yet seen the full ramifications of this war yet, nor what will finally be the last straw to break before the horde finally rebels against garrosh. I must say I'm very curious as to what will be the final straw that finishes to push garrosh so far off the deep end of crazy that the horde will finally stop fearing him, and start opposing him. I Thought him stabbing Vol'jin would do it, but its been covered up.

My gut tells me he's gonna kill Thrall and THAT is what will push the horde (and alliance, as Thrall is actually somewhat respected by both sides) against garrosh for good.

(of course, this is all speculation from my end)

Also, this is pretty much Garrosh's war right now. In that there's him and no one else that wants it.

>_> its a shame some alliance players quickly forget about this bit, and seem to think that the entire horde wants this war. Its actually garrosh, and part of the orcs. A lot of orcs support garrosh, but its hard to tell if its a majority that follow him out of genuine devotion, or just blind fear.

The rest of the horde (yes, EVEN THE FORSAKEN) don't actually approve of what he's doing, as even Sylvannas thought his attack on theramoore was overkill. And you just KNOW something is wrong when a psycho like her disapproved.

Since I'm on that subject, anyone know how Varian was able to convince his own side that it would be super swell that the BEs were to join? I'm thinking that the HEs would find a WHOLE LOT OF RESERVATIONS about that.

The high elves are so much of a minority I'd be surprised if there was only a few couple of thousands of them left. Lets face it, they have ZERO voice in the alliance, and the only reason Vereesa had any saying in dalaran, was because she was sleeping with the Chairman of the Council of Six.

As for the rest of the alliance, I'm sure the night elves would had shown opposition, but a quick reminder that they accepted the highborn back would quickly silence any opposition to add the blood elves. The draenei don't seem to hold any grudges against the blood elves, seeing as they worked side-by-side to retake the sunwell. I have no idea how the dwarves, or gnomes would had reacted if this negotiation had actually happened. And as for the worgens....... if blizz doesn't care to remember they exist, why should we?

From his wording on the alliance version of the 5.1 questline, it seems the negotiations were just starting, so he hadn't convinced anyone of anything yet.

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Post by Rankkor

Sylvanas only dissaproved because it'd potentially make the alliance retaliate against her, I'm pretty sure.

still, she believed it to be a bad move. For whatever reasons she disapproved of the attack. And this came from a woman who's quite deep on the crazy-scale.

Again, when such a monstrous character disapproves, you just KNOW something is bad.

General Lore Discussions

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