General Lore Discussions

Post by 588688

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Adamsm

Then you can justify the Dark Horde wiping out any of the farmers they came up against in the Second War....since you know, the farmers were feeding the Grand Alliance army.

Post by 588688

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Adamsm

/sigh Whatever Sold; guess we know that killing civilians is alright in your moral view.

Post by Rankkor

I don't consider peons to be non-combatants, since they're directly and intentionally supplying an army with equipment, resources, weapons, etc.

As Adamsm pointed out, by that same flawed logic, all the human farmers, as well as the human peasants should be killed, since they DO feed the army, build their engines, forge their weapons, craft their armor, ect ect.

Yet, just because they do these things, doesn't make them combatants, they are still civilians.

What's next? u gonna say that people who make airplanes are terrorist too because they supplied osama with the weapons he used for 9/11? that's completely absurd.

That, and all orcs of the second war were demon-blood tainted monsters.

This is why we all call you biased, and why your words have such a little credibility, you see everything (but the alliance) on absolutes.

You do realize that the orcs were FORCED into war right? only a select few in the higher places of power kicked the whole thing in motion, to refuse was to be executed or exiled and assassinated.

These peons were forced to work wheter they liked it or not, and they never actually picked any weapon to strike at any alliance target, they are non combatants, and their execution was NOT justified.

Well I don't really think feeding the army ( which wouldn't even occur during battle of course) is the same as peons building siege engines in the middle of a battle to attack their enemies.

Except human peasants also build their siege engines, craft their weapons and their armors, tend to their horses, and fix their broken gear.

From your point of view, they (for being human) don't deserve to be butchered, but the orc peons who did the very same things (for being orcs) do deserve to be exterminated.

And then you claim you get the right to tell who's morally superior to who?

That, and the dark horde was slaughtering indiscriminately, so I don't think "justified" really matters in their case.

The soldiers were, but not everyone was a soldier, there were plenty of non-combatants and children who got to pay for the crimes of their fathers, is that fair to you? If your dad shoots 20 people, and commits suicide, would it be fair that a judge sentences you to life in prison for a crime YOU did not commit?

humm?

I'm talking about, in the middle of the warzone, peons are assembling siege engines for example, and that will have an affect on the outcome of the battle. I don't think me bumping off farmer brown who's cooking up some frog stew for the soldiers is gonna win me the battle.

Like I said, the very same things the orc peoons did, were done by human peasants. They are the ones who assemble siege engines, and so on. Soldiers are trained to fight, not to fix broken gear, or craft gear, or assemble machines. That's what engineers are for, yet that doesn't make them combatants.

Post by Rankkor

/sigh Whatever Sold; guess we know that killing civilians is alright in your moral view.

the irony being that killing HORDE civilians is a-ok on his moral view, but doing anything at all to alliance civilians is the worst unforgivable crime EVER.

Post by Adamsm

Alright, so about to run RFC on a Horde toon...let's see if we can figure out what is going on.

The quests at first:

A New Enemy:
Description:
the power of these Dark Shaman has attracted many allies, *insert name here*. Former members of the Horde that now work towards some dark purpose.

We need to make an example of them before we have another twilight's hammer on our hands.

Kill any cultist you come across and bring me their insignia.
Animal Control:
Description:
The chasm is overrun with flame hounds and lava worms. and they will be entrenched indefinitely with such a large supply of trogg flesh for food.

This infestation needs to be taken care of now, before they endanger the city. You look like you can handle yourself, *insert name here*.

I want you to clear a path through the beasts and make certain to take out the largest threats, Adarogg and Slagmaw.
No Orc Left Behind
Description:
This was supposed to be a routine sweep, *insert name here*. Clean up a few troggs, make sure there is no threat to the city and then be in the tavern by midday.

Instead I've a group of scouts missing, flame hounds pouring out of the chasm and Xorenth going on and on about "the next twilight's hammer."

<Commander Bagran spits>

Go in there and get my scouts back so we can figure out what is going on down here.
The Dark Shaman
Description:
These dark shaman have been down here for months, raising beasts and preforming dark rituals.

I don't know what they aim to achieve with all of this, but it's clear that they are no friend of the Horde. That's where you come in, *insert name here*.

Fight your way through the chasm and kill Dark Shaman Koranthal and Lava Guard Gordoth.

Post by Orranis

The Sha's Hammer or something similar. Introduction to the new bad.

Post by Adamsm

And the quests completed:
A New Enemy:
Good work, *insert name here*. This will make it very clear how Garrosh is going to deal with failures.....
The Dark Shaman:
It would seem that the dark shaman experiments drove Gordoth insane.

Hopefully we've seen the last of this, *insert name here*
Animal Control:
Good work, *insert name here*. Who knows what kind of destruction those beasts would have caused.
No Orc Left Behind:
That's all that survived?(5 scouts)

I don't know who these Dark Shaman are working for, but they are going to pay for this.

So....other then a one off line, not a huge connection to Garrosh....Guess it's more then just this heh.

Post by Rankkor

This is me doing speculation but:

These guys could very well be the last remnants of the twilight's hammer trying to regain their former glory, they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with garrosh WHATSOEVER, we wipe them out, then later on during the course of MoP, as garrosh slips further down to madness and RAAAAAGE he starts to resort to more and more desperate tactics to win the war, and tasks a group of his hommies to see if these crazy experiments can yield any fruit at all.

Since a single Dire Orc is worth at least 10 regular ones, he would see them as useful assets, and since these don't exactly involve fel magic, he shrugs it off as harmless.

Garrosh is a lot of things (An idiot, immature tantrum trowing spoiled brat, a tactical "G.E.N.I.U.S" (Generally Unaware Natural Idiot Under Stupidity) a complete jerk, a disrespecful loudmouth, and did I mention he's not the sharpest pencil in the box?) but for him to go from "NO TOLERANCE ON CORRUPTION" to "I'M DRUNK WITH POWER I WILL KILL EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING" just overnight is just not realistic.

For the very horde to turn on him, he must have REALLY gone complete whacko, and people don't just go nuts overnight, that's a gradual process that takes its toll. Not even Arthas went insane overnight, and he was mentally assaulted by the f*bleep*king LICH KING.

So yeah, IMO, I believe these guys under RFC have ZERO to do with garrosh, but later on, as he slips further into insanity, he resorts to their experiments to gain the edge he wants.

Post by 306612

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Adamsm

I think the new RFC may be tied into whatever the 5.0 pre-event is; could be a last ditch push from the remains of the Hammer to try to get a toe hold into Orgrimmar; after all, why else would you have a massive lava wyrm burrowing up into the city.

Though, it's possible, Xorenth was a member of the Hammer, and switched sides; guy has some weird comments after all.

Post by 588688

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by 588688

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Rankkor

Well, they did say that garrosh does some "nasty things" beneath orgrimmar, and RFC is beneath org. Tho I'm not really seeing the connection to garrosh either. All I know is that this has to have something to do with garrosh, maybe not at first, but eventually.

they say he does some crazy sh1t under org, but not WHEN. At this moment, I don't see any connection between the revamped RFC and garrosh, so that's why I think he will resort to that later on during the expansion. They call that "foreshadowing".

As for your remarks regarding the first and second war, you are wrong.

You see everything the horde does in absolutes, but not the alliance.

The first and second war WERE black&white, but not the people participating on it. There are non-combatants on the horde, if you are so thick-headed to refuse to believe otherwise, that's not my problem.

Durotan and his clan refused to drink the blood, for his troubles the shadow council had him assassinated, but in secret, they couldn't afford to kill him publicly since that would had caused dissension among the other clans, but they were exiled, and had durotan not made a FANTASTIC job in hiding his people on the most remote corner of the planet, they would had all been wiped out. Best proof of it is that THE SECOND durotan and his wife left the safety of the mountains, they were gutted like fish.

The alliance peasants do the exact same things the horde peons do, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Yet you claim that their deaths would not be justified, but the peon's would, that's BS.

Again, you choose to grab what you want and refuse what you don't want. Eitrigg recounted to tirion how when the elders of each clan decided to go to war against the draenei, those who refused were killed, and to make matters worst, once the shadow council was established, and a warchief was instated, things only went from bad to worst. Most of the soldier orcs were doped up in demon blood, and thus killed indiscriminately, while many regretted having lowered themselves to that point (Like saurfang and eitrigg did) they still commited horrible crimes and DESERVED whatever punishment the alliance had for them.

But not the women, and specially not the children. Orc children do exist, I can't believe i have to remind you that nobody is born an adult, and that while warlocks prematurely aged children on draenor, they didn't do that as often on Azeroth because Doomhammer killed the shadow council, and most of the remaining warlocks were under the thumb of Gul'dan who didn't wanted to provide Doomhammer with more troops.

Furthermore, most of the warlocks were turned by Gul'dan into Death Knights, so no sold, NOT EVERYONE on the horde were adults, the females were relegated exclusively to bear children and raise/train them, they didn't fought on the front lines. The children didn't fought on the front line either until they were at least 7 years old, and the peons were so weak (and mentally disabled) that they didn't participated in open combat either.

Killing all of them is a war crime, but of course, none of this matters to you because you see the horde in absolutes.

1 evil = ALL EVIL.

but not with the alliance,, with them its 1 evil = 1 bad apple.

Post by 588688

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Rankkor

That doesn't even make any sense! How is it black and white if the participants are grey? That's not black and white then! You're trying to tell me that the old horde was grey, and the alliance was too, when all the alliance was doing was defending itself against a psycopathic demon-legion who wanted nothing more than to slaughter them for the lulz.

/sighs

I can't believe I have to explain this to you, but fine, if that's what it takes...............

The WAR was black and white because the REASON for that war was not justified. The orcs ruined their own world, and thus traveled to a new one to take it by force. They weren't entitled to the alliance lands they invaded, and thus the conflict was black and white.

The old horde was as chaotic evil as it can get, since it was led by the shadow council and blackhand. It got a little better with doomhammer at the helm, but his willingness to resort to any means to victory was what doomed (lol pun =D) him and the horde.

During the fighting, the alliance was white since all they did was defend themselves from an invading force that attacked them unprovoked, and the horde was black because they attacked another world that didn't belonged to them and tried to take it by force.

Now that we cleared that up, lets clarify why THE PEOPLE weren't black&white.

The alliance had every right to fight, to defend themselves, but after the fighting was over, they decided to punish the entire nation, rather than the ones who did all the fighting. Back in WWII, when germany lost, all the nazis were harshly punished for their role in the war,but it would had been a war crime if the CIVILIANS of germany were punished as well by revenge-thirsty allied forces. (Which did happened BTW, there were a lot of innocent civilian women on hitler's bunker, who were brutally raped after the war was over)

Their eagerness to kill anyone with a green skin, or sentence them to an eternity in slavery and imprisonment was a disproportionate retribution. Its true the old horde had it comming, but only the SOLDIERS are meant to be punished at the end of a war, not the civilians, the non-combatants or the children. This didn't clicked with the alliance, and they simply chose to imprison them all forever. Not happy with that, they also chose to make them slave, make them fight each other for entertainment, and pretty much every single war crime you can think of. So no, their actions AFTER the war were not justified.

Lots of innocent orcs were unjustly punished after it was all over, including the children who were born in captivity (Hint: Orcs were incarcerated for nearly 25 years, that's a lot of time for at least 1 generation to be born)

There were no non-combatants on old horde, peons creating siege engines in the middle of battle are not civilian targets, they're viable military targets that are making weapons and siege engines with the intention of killing mass amounts of people. How does even remotely, in any way, shape or form compare to farmers making food for an army not even during the battle?

because you keep ignoring the fact that the human peasants were also doing the same things as the orc peons did. Human peasants also assembled and dissasembled the alliance's own siege engines (what? u thought those steam tanks were auto-deployed? gimme a break man) Human peasants, and Dwarven engineers were doing the exact same things as the orc peons did, yet acording to you, killing them is wrong.......

Besides, its not like ALL the peons did 24/7 was assemble siege weapons, there were also orc peon farmers, orc peon stablemasters, orc peon resource-gatherers, all of these were also punished with the exact same severity as the rest of the horde.

1. Nothing the old horde did was justified, they were slaughtering indiscriminately, so trying to imply that they had a shred of moral highground is laughable.

2. It was farmers, not peasants, farmers.

It was peasants, not farmers, PEASANTS

Since I just know you wont click the link, I'll just quote the important bits:

No matter how loudly a knight might boast of his deeds, the truth is that no army could survive, much less win, without peasants. These lowly men, armed with little more than staves and clubs or picks and axes, and often completely unarmored, are the force that allows an army to function.

then there's this:

Peasants are trained from the hard-working and stouthearted citizens that live in the numerous kingdoms of Lordaeron. By mining gold and harvesting lumber to meet the ever increasing needs of the fighting force which must push back the unrelenting Horde, they are the backbone of the Alliance. Trained not only in the construction and maintenance of the myriad buildings found in every community, but also those necessary to wage war

(Hint: they are talking about siege weapons, and siege towers sold)

So, you tell me that these guys don't deserve to be killed but peons do? WTF?

Nothing the old horde did was justified, they were slaughtering indiscriminately, so trying to imply that they had a shred of moral highground is laughable.

I didn't said they had a moral highground I'm saying that the non-combatants shouldn't had to pay for the crimes of the combatants. Specially given how any peon who refused to work was slain on the spot. They (the peons) were as much a victim of the shadow council, as the alliance civilians themselves. (Worst even, because at least the shadow council just killed alliance civilians, but they forced the horde peons to work to exaustion with no pay, and barely any food at all, and were treated worst than dirt)

Killing the peons, or incarcerating the peons was NOT justified, and its one of the things that grayed out the alliance. They were white during the war, but once they won, they took concessions that didn't belonged to them, and inflicted onto undeserving victims as much pain and suffering as they got (by victims I mean the horde women, children, and non-combatants such as the peons, who were FORCED into war by the shadow council, and the clan elders before them)

There were no orc children/civilians participating in the second war, stop bringing them up.

That's exactly my point, there were no orc children/civilians PARTICIPATING in the second war, and yet they were punished along the ones that did anyways. Does that seems fair to you?

/head desk repeatedly. Killing peons of an entirely bloodthirsty evil army is evil? Are you serious? There weren't any children participating in the wars who weren't already demonically aged to adulthood, so why even bring that up? They killed peons, who were also under the influence of demon blood, who were supplying the horde in the middle of the battle. Who the hell cares if not all of them drank it willingly? They still did and it made them bloodthirsty monsters, not civilians, bloodthirsty kill-happy murderous evil monsters.

Not a single orc who drank demon blood can be called a civilian target, THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE CIVILIANS ON AZEROTH THEY WERE JUST SLAUGHTERING EVERYTHING THEY COULD, until the second war where they teamed up with the amani trolls. They didn't have towns, villages, cities or anything like that on azeroth, they had base camps, that was it. They were no civilians in the dark horde, none, nada, zilch. We're not talking about orcs back on draenor, we're talking about the demon blood tainted orcs who participated in the first and second war, all of those were evil, bloodthirsty, military units, in one way or another.

which shows just what you know of the lore (very little)

An army can't be maintained without non-combatants. After all SOMEONE has to gather resources, SOMEONE has to make and repair gear, SOMEONE has to tend to the wounded, SOMEONE has to inhabit the conquered land ect ect.

If you use the bulk of your army to do all of these things, what you will get is a tired army who will be too exausted to fight back, or a slow army that will take forever to march towards large expanses of land.

Every single orc drank demon blood, that doesn't mean every single orc who crossed the dark portal participated in the war. I should remind you that the war lasted several years, during that time, some orcs were born on azeroth, and they had no blame for the sins of their fathers. Nor were the many females brought to procreate more children while on azeroth (they didn't participated either).

All of them were punished and that is not justified. Again, this is you showing what little you get about morality. If you really think killing enemy workers is fair game in a war, I'm so glad you are not leading any actual army in real life, or you'd be worst than Stallin.

Post by 306612

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Post by Rankkor

You know if you're gonna derp out you might as well not bother with the walls of text. Also, that "THEY WERE FARMERS NOT PEASANTS!" false argument is kind of absolutely @#$%ing idiotic. It's like saying it would have been horrible if the Peons had brown-skin but because they're greenskinned it's perfectly legit to kill them. It's kind of stupid is what it is.

which is why I linked the wowpedia peasant article, to see if he's still gonna be in denial.

Also, rank, you forget that evil warlock magic was used to age the Orcs a good deal - for the most part, I'd wager a portion of the Old Horde army were children who didn't have anywhere near a developed mental capacity. Even if they could go back on their choice, I'd say those who've been artificially aged had zero clue as to how to do so.

yo, I know man, I'm just saying they drastically reduced that considerably after doomhammer took over since he cut down the warlock population to a mere handful. Plus orcs usually waited for children to reach the age six before turning them into adults. Several children were born on azeroth, but since the combined duration of the first and second war was not 6 years............ You can see where I'm getting here.

Plus the females, not a single female was deployed to the front lines, their job was exclusively civilian, either to bear children, or to tend to the wounded, ect ect, yet they too were enslaved, and incarcerated.

I don't deny that the old horde was SUPER BLACK, and the alliance was white during the first and second war. I'm saying that after the war was over, a lot of innocents within the old horde were unjustly punished.

Not to mention how the entire old horde was scrambled by a handful of individuals, and the rest were FORCED to go along whether they liked it or not.

I'm all for it that the soldiers paid for their crimes, but hurting the peons (Who are basically orcs with down syndrome) the children, and the women is just NOT justified at all.

Post by 306612

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

General Lore Discussions

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