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Post by
Rankkor
You know what I find odd? All the opened coffins in stormwind graveyard. I mean, the skeletons are exposed, anyone can see them, someone must be graverobbing.
Also, who else would like to see the gates on the karazhan crypt open up once again, and a new raid be added for the "lower karazhan" seen in The Last Guardian novel?
I've had ENOUGH of recycled content in this expansion. Kara was fun ON ITS TIME, same as the other raids. Let the dead rest and give us brand new content.
thx
And as for the opened coffins in stormwind, there's a cabal of warlocks, a sect of twilight hammers, and a splinter group of dissidents inside. Is it any wonder they deface public monuments?
Post by
Monday
As long as you have those, even if nobody else blesses you, you still become a paladin.
Citation?
Also, requireing a blessing from someone who already was blessed is not quite an analogue to the elements. Because mortal creatures are biased, while the elements are not.
A human paladin who's a veteran, and has been in the order for decades, can recieve a trainee, who's completed his or her training, and "seemingly" is a pure soul, and thus give them his blessing, without knowing that deep inside that person is actually rotten to the core (Such was the case with Tirion Blessing Barthilas, a man who was a complete f*bleep*ing monster)
The elements do not make such mistakes, they dont let trivialities such as race, or political affiliation dictate who gets or doesn't get their blessings. So, its much harder to gain a blessing from never-dieing omnisapient omnipresent spirits of the world, than simple mortals who can be tricked and decieved.
But, if the humans can ^&*! up and bless bad people, and the elements can't, how the hell are there fel orc shamans in Hellfire Peninsula and Flamewalker shamans in the Molten Front? Their intentions and uses are not even close to good for the elements, morality or people around them, yet they are still blessed.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
As long as you have those, even if nobody else blesses you, you still become a paladin.
Citation?
Tirion was stripped from his powers by his superiors, but regained them when he intended to use them for a pure cause (Healing Eitrigg) Also, how else did the first paladin of each race gained their powers? (Uther, Aponi, Liandrin (well, in her case we do know :P) and whoever it was the first Draenei paladin? cuz dwarves were simply blessed by some human at some point after the third war)
But, if the humans can ^&*! up and bless bad people, and the elements can't, how the hell are there fel orc shamans in Hellfire Peninsula and Flamewalker shamans in the Molten Front? Their intentions and uses are not even close to good for the elements, morality or people around them, yet they are still blessed.
I often wondered that too, but the answer is simple. There are rogue elemental spirits too. Those are the ones we actually battle. And these rogue elementals can infuse others with their powers as long as those do their bidding. In this particular case, the shaman doesn't ask and gives something in return, rather they obey whatever mandates their twisted masters give them.
They are kinda like reverse warlocks (where the puppets are actually the puppeteers)
Infernus is an example of a rogue elemental spirit. Bear in mind too, that shamans who are blessed by rogue spirits often are more limited than regular shamans, often being limited to a single element, or just a couple. Last but not least do recall that the twilight hammer discovered a way to "ascend" regular mortals into elemental beings (like the council in bastion of twilight), and these elementals can use other mortals as their avatars.
Post by
Adamsm
And I still stand by my belief that Nobundo is the stronger Shaman; Drek'thar had to beg to get the Elements to forgive him, and by extension, the Frostwolves, and he wasn't even even sure if they would truly accept Thrall....but the Elements of Draenor sought out Nobundo, and taught him personally about Shamanism and all that it prevailed, then told him to take the teachings among his people.
Edit: And as seen in the Shaman manga, sufficiently powerful Shamans can force the Elements to do their bidding and still keep their powers....mind, that was due to Rag influence but still.
And not everyone can be any class; if you don't have a bent towards energy manipulation you can't be a mage, if you don't truly believe in what you are doing you can't be a priest/paladin, if you aren't willing to work with Nature you can't be a Hunter, and if the Ancients/Sons of Cenarius/Cenarius/a Druid doesn't choose you you'll never follow the path of Druidism either.
About the only ones that could be universal are Warriors, Rogues, and Warlocks; anyone can swing a sword if they have the strength, you can learn to be silent, and since Warlocks make packs with the Legion well....
Post by
Rankkor
And I still stand by my belief that Nobundo is the stronger Shaman; Drek'thar had to beg to get the Elements to forgive him, and by extension, the Frostwolves, and he wasn't even even sure if they would truly accept Thrall....but the Elements of Draenor sought out Nobundo, and taught him personally about Shamanism and all that it prevailed, then told him to take the teachings among his people.
Except everything that lore teaches us, says that the power of each shaman depends on how deep their connection to the spirits is.
And just as the elements of draenor sought out Nobundo, the elements of azeroth sought out Thrall as well.
The time you've been as a shaman only means you know how to better use the power you have, but the quantity of the power you have depends directly on how much blessed you've been by the elements, and from what feats we've seen both perform, Thrall has displayed a higher blessing by the shamans. (come on, he swatted a necropolis from the sky like a fly, and that's not even the highest display of shamanism he's ever showed)
Drek'thar may had to beg to the elements to forgive him but haven't you considered that this act of humility gained him much favor by the spirits?
You place far too much emphasis on the time nobundo has been a shaman, and the fact that he was the first of his kind. For that matter there are MANY shaman among the tauren who've been shamans since WAY before even the first war, and they aren't the strongest ones, they may be the wisest ones, and may know how to wield their power better, but the full extent of their power is smaller than several of the younger ones.
I do believe nobundo, and Muln know FAR BETTER than thrall how to use their powers, but the amount of power they have is smaller than thrall's. Not for nothing, for everything that happens, the elements pick up thrall to act as their middle-man.
Post by
Adamsm
Well....Metzan choose Thrall to act as the middle man.......But that is my entire point; why, when the Tauren, the Wildhammer Dwarves, and other races of Azeroth have been following the teachings of Shamanism for so long, is it a being from another world that is considered to be their Champion?
Thrall has displayed a higher blessing by the shamans. (come on, he swatted a necropolis from the sky like a fly, and that's not even the highest display of shamanism he's ever showed)Yeah I remember that.....the off hand way he just knocked it out of the sky, while the Alliance forces at Stormwind had to use far more effort...though, at least Jaina blasted it down by herself so that was something.
Drek'thar may had to beg to the elements to forgive him but haven't you considered that this act of humility gained him much favor by the spirits?Was still coming from someone who abandoned the Elements willingly(he didn't know what he was doing but still).
I know, out of all the 'deities' in the Azerothian universe, the Elements are the most neutral, but it still sticks in my craw at times that Thrall is the savior of everything.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I know, out of all the 'deities' in the Azerothian universe, the Elements are the most neutral, but it still sticks in my craw at times that Thrall is the savior of everything.
and
But that is my entire point; why, when the Tauren, the Wildhammer Dwarves, and other races of Azeroth have been following the teachings of Shamanism for so long, is it a being from another world that is considered to be their Champion?
make me paraphrase a line that Christians and catholics use a lot: "The elements work in mysterious ways" :P
it IS a mystery why wouldn't they choose a tauren (Perhaps the OLDEST race in all of azeroth to practice shamanism) to be their main champion, but hey, that's just the way things are.
I mean, by that same logic, why would a human/draenei/orc hybrid be chosen as the next guardian? or why a human and not an elf (who were the first to wield the arcane) be the strongest mage out there?
Regarding how "universal" a class can be lets do a quick recount.
Warriors: Anyone can wield a sword and board, regardless of sex, height, weight, or political affiliation.
Rogues: Anyone can be a spy, regardless of the same circumstances as warriors
Hunters: Now this one is a bit tricky, because the gameplay hunters of wow, are actually a mix-up of several classes in lore (Including plain simple archers, rangers, beastmasters, and more) I mean, Dwarven Hunters are actually simple rifleman, just as Blood-elf hunters are actually rangers, and orc hunters are actually beast-masters. As far as wielding a bow/gun any race can do that man, regardless of the whole "Friend of all animals" thingie. So any race can be a hunter (greatest proof of this: nobody is as detached from nature as forsakens, and yet =O they too can wield a bow, even if lorewise they aint exactly friends of all animals)
Warlocks: All it takes is being a power-hungry sociopath and there's plenty of those everywhere.
Mage: I disagree with you on you needing anything special to be a mage, we've seen members of just about every race (including murlocks kobolds and gnolls for crying out loud) be able to wield the arcane. So I dont exactly think, there's anything special to be a mage, if you wanna be one, I dont think there's any barrier stoping you from being one.
Priest: The Sisterhood of elune welcomes everyone (Well, only night elves, but no other discrimination exists) much the same way as the anchorites, and church of holy light do. There's no special barrier to prevent an individual to be a priest, after all, there's plenty of divine beings in azeroth that require acolytes who spread their word. These divine beings would have to be stupid to reject potential converts.
Shamans: we've already stated that its bloody hard to become one, since you need permission of the elements to hear or see them.
Druids: I'm willing to admit they are just as hard as shamans, since these too require a blessing by the ancients in order to become one.
Paladin: As stated before, conviction, faith, and devotion can make anyone a paladin, regardless of race. As that song from "prince of Egypt" says; "IF you believe", then you will be one.
Death Knights: Aja :P this is another hard one. It takes a POWERFUL necromancer to infuse someone with the knoledge to animate the dead, and then you also need to have military training to wield weapons and armor. Very few organizations exist that are willing to offer this to anyone. The dreadlords can do it, but you'd have to serve the legion, The lich king could do it, but you'd have to serve the scourge. And the Knights of the Ebon Blade, likely dont accept new recruits. Hard to tell :S aparently they ceased to exist after the lich king was slain.
Edit: Ejem, sold, as I explained above, those "shamans" aren't actually blessed by the actual elemental spirits of azeroth, these guys were infused by ROGUE elementals, the kind that dont believe in balance, and dont listen to the will of the benevolent elemental spirits of the world. People like Ragnaros or ala'kir, who are elemental lords but not spirits. They are cheap knockoffs of the real shaman who can wield all 5 elements (yes I said 5 :P there's 5 of them even if the game doesn't reflects this as much)
Post by
Monday
I often wondered that too, but the answer is simple. There are rogue elemental spirits too. Those are the ones we actually battle. And these rogue elementals can infuse others with their powers as long as those do their bidding. In this particular case, the shaman doesn't ask and gives something in return, rather they obey whatever mandates their twisted masters give them.
So what is the difference between a rogue elemental spirit and a dark person who's been blessed to use the Light? Both are analogues of the other.
Post by
Adamsm
Mage: I disagree with you on you needing anything special to be a mage, we've seen members of just about every race (including murlocks kobolds and gnolls for crying out loud) be able to wield the arcane. So I dont exactly think, there's anything special to be a mage, if you wanna be one, I dont think there's any barrier stoping you from being one.I really think there is something more to those who are magi, something you have to be born with to manipulate the energies of the arcane....well, unless you are a Draenei and your entire race is infused with magic of course.
And the Knights of the Ebon Blade, likely dont accept new recruits. Hard to tell :S aparently they ceased to exist after the lich king was slain.
Not exactly Rank; you are forgetting the quest in Icecrown where the Ebon Blade and the Crusader are working together to stop that one lab that was creating more ghouls and abominations, the Crusader get's captured, chopped up, and the Blader sends you to gather his parts, and she resurrects him; his tag swaps to the Ebon Blade when he comes back. They can add new recruits to the ranks if they want to, but yes, since the fall of the King, they don't really need to anymore.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I often wondered that too, but the answer is simple. There are rogue elemental spirits too. Those are the ones we actually battle. And these rogue elementals can infuse others with their powers as long as those do their bidding. In this particular case, the shaman doesn't ask and gives something in return, rather they obey whatever mandates their twisted masters give them.
So what is the difference between a rogue elemental spirit and a dark person who's been blessed to use the Light? Both are analogues of the other.
not quite.
A dark person blessed by the light can make FULL USE of all the power of the light for some very f*bleep*ked up purposes, as long as they have self-deluded themselves that what they do is right.
Whereas a shaman blessed by a cheap knockoff rogue spirit would never have the same power as an actual shaman blessed by the real thing.
Real shaman are WAY more versatile than dark shaman. Often you will see that dark shaman either wield only 1 element, or have very limited skills. Whereas a true shaman is a jack of all trades, they can shoot lightning, lava, ice, can use wind to propell themselves, can heal others, can talk to the spirits, can also talk to the spirits of animals and the land, and can do a HUGE number of things that shamans blessed by lesser spirits cant even dream of doing.
A dark person blessed by the light has no such boundaries (look at what arthas did on stratholm, and what people like abendis did even to the bitter end or what the pre-sunwell blood knights did, specially those aligned to kael and illidan)
Post by
Rankkor
So like.....by your logic rankorr, every single fire elemental qualifies as a rogue elemental?
yep. They aren't doing what fire is supposed to do (Read: consume what is no longer necessary, while providing warmth to others)
every single elemental enemy in the game is a rogue elemental spirit that isn't doing what its supposed to be doing. They'd rather have mortals worship them, or would rather wreak havoc across the world.
Sufficiently powerful fire elementals can imbue some of their power to other mortals, to make them act as pseudo-shamans but as I said before, those are cheap (VERY cheap) knockoffs of the real thing.
Post by
Monday
A dark person blessed by the light has no such boundaries (look at what arthas did on stratholm,
Except that Arthas totally lost his powers after Stratholme, and during it. Go reread RotLK.
Whereas a shaman blessed by a cheap knockoff rogue spirit would never have the same power as an actual shaman blessed by the real thing.
Oh? Did a quick search for the first thing that came to my head, Utgarde Keep, as there are Vrykul shaman. The
spiritualist
can cast flameshock, healing wave and lightning bolt. That seems fairly versatile to me.
Post by
Adamsm
Whereas a shaman blessed by a cheap knockoff rogue spirit would never have the same power as an actual shaman blessed by the real thing.
Real shaman are WAY more versatile than dark shaman. Often you will see that dark shaman either wield only 1 element, or have very limited skills. Whereas a true shaman is a jack of all trades, they can shoot lightning, lava, ice, can use wind to propell themselves, can heal others, can talk to the spirits, can also talk to the spirits of animals and the land, and can do a HUGE number of things that shamans blessed by lesser spirits cant even dream of doing.Eh, I don't know; the villain of Shaman almost killed off the Earthen Ring members he was fighting against, and he was only imbued with Fire from Ragnaros and about to conqueror the other three Elements before Muln went in for that last attack.
The Ascendants are pretty bad ass as well, even for only being possessed by the power of just one specific Elemental Lord; we only go through them like chaff because most of them are mooks.
The Dark Iron Shamans though, can do everything a regular Shaman can do, even though they are only suppose to be drawing on the power of just Ragnaros; entirely possible, that just like
Shotoa
, they had captured and were forcing the powers of the Elements of Azeroth to their commands.
Heck, we even see a 'good' guy do that in Deepholme; the one Goblin who missuses his Fire Elemental...and nearly pays for it, but he still kept his powers afterward. Even these aren't just black and white....which is something about Thrall that still sticks in my craw heh; even the rogue Fire Elementals in the Shattering were willing to at least listen to him, even if they didn't do as he asked, which was more then the other shamans there(which just made them look pathetic).
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually adamsm, crusader olakin doesn't show up with the ebon blade faction tag, the time he shows up after being rezzed he's still argent. And since he's a paladin still, that means he's not undead, if that's what you were meaning.
Crusader Olakin Sainrith
Quest says otherwise there Sold.
The quest
and the completion text: Olakin should consider himself fortunate. No one is rescued from the Scourge, no one. No amount of thread and heroism will save him a second time. I'll make certain he remembers it.
And himself says:
Crusader Olakin Sainrith says: Thank the Light for granting me another chance. And thank you, <name>.
Crusader Olakin Sainrith says: Without your help, I would've been doomed to a life of undeath among the Lich King's gruesome creations.
Crusader Olakin Sainrith says: There will be time for a proper thanks later, but there is still a battle to be fought!
Post by
Rankkor
A dark person blessed by the light has no such boundaries (look at what arthas did on stratholm,
Except that Arthas totally lost his powers after Stratholme, and during it. Go reread RotLK.
Whereas a shaman blessed by a cheap knockoff rogue spirit would never have the same power as an actual shaman blessed by the real thing.
Oh? Did a quick search for the first thing that came to my head, Utgarde Keep, as there are Vrykul shaman. The
spiritualist
can cast flameshock, healing wave and lightning bolt. That seems fairly versatile to me.
A; Did not know about that part (haven't read Rotlk) but arthas may have been the exeption, not the norm. Abendis did was able to use her powers to the end, and so did the paladin in the ilidari council, and on sunwell, and magister terrace. Bottom line is that a Dark person blessed by the light can do just about everything that a pure person blessed by the light can. The diference is that as soon as the faith of the dark person wavers, they lose their powers. Maybe deep down arthas had some regrets of what he was doing in strat and that is what led to him losing his powers.
B: Spiritualists and shamans aren't the same thing.
There are many classes in the game that use the same spells as the general classes, that doesn't mean they are part of the general classes. Example, many mobs in the game have shadow bolt and even demon armor without being warlocks.
Another example is geomancers who also have several shaman spells without being actual shamans.
Also, bear in mind that the very name of those vrykul mobs is "Spiritualists", so in all likelyhood, they aren't using power from the elements, but from the spirits of their ancestors ( the same way as their king uses the spirits of 4 ancestors to empower himself on Utgarde Pinnacle)
Post by
Monday
Also, bear in mind that the very name of those vrykul mobs is "Spiritualists", so in all likelyhood, they aren't using power from the elements, but from the spirits of their ancestors ( the same way as their king uses the spirits of 4 ancestors to empower himself on Utgarde Pinnacle)
Or they could totally be using the powers of the elements, as several people refer to them as the spirits.
B: Spiritualists and shamans aren't the same thing.
Oh? There's nothing to tell them apart, from what I see. They could just be going by a different name.
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