General Lore Discussions

Post by Skreeran

as oposed to his stance that it was a clean surgical flawless operation, with minimal collateral damage.He never said that it was a surgical flawless operation. He says that the attack went flawlessly, but that's not the same thing as saying that it went exactly how he wanted it to go.

Remember, the conscripts from the Stockades were non-violent criminals. He couldn't have expected them to break ranks and start looting. And when he found out, he immediately had them taken into custody for punishment.

Besides, I have a feeling that most of the civilian casualties are those who A) spent too much time in the village (either defending it, or simply unable to find the escape hole), and were killed by the bombs or B) took up arms and were killed out of necessity (my dad's not a soldier anymore, but if he felt there was a threat, he'd definitely take up arms to fight it off). I just watched Black Hawk Down the other night, and I'm reminded of the poor Somali woman that the Rangers had to shoot because she was bending down to pick up an AK-47.

Honestly, I doubt that many were just slaughtered in cold-blood. Considering the conscripts were specifically chosen as non-violent criminals, and we know that their first priority was filling their pockets, I have a hard time imagining them taking time off of their looting to just start killing people against orders.

And again, in regards to the bombing, remember that the mission was to "remove Taurajo from the equation." They weren't there to kill civilians, or even soldiers. They were there to capture and destroy one of the most vital links in the Horde's supply chain. Bombing it (or burning it) was only sensible.

that it was done BEFORE the horde and alliance were at war only serves to reinforce my point.But remember, the Alliance has just gotten word that the Horde has A) killed almost everyone aboard an Alliance ship, B) butchered and skinned a number of Night Elves, and C) arranged a meeting with the Cenarion Circle only to betray them and kill them all. With the Horde unrepentant, and Garrosh's apparent belief that all of Azeroth should belong to the Horde (that's not just a belief he suddenly formed as soon as war broke out), the Alliance, and most of the people in it, support the war and believe it to be necessary. I can totally understand why he believes it is necessary to destroy Taurajo. But he made deliberate steps to avoid a massacre, which is more than most Alliance or Horde Generals ever do.

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Post by Rankkor

But we don't know whether the Horde had attacked Ashenvale before hand however (aka began their major offensive).

It could be that the orcs started their offensive, and so the Stormwind troops retaliated.

you tell me what we don't know, I tell you what we DO know.

before shattering=no war.

before shattering=alliance attacked

after shattering=war.

also, the book "the shattering: a prelude to cataclysm" was based before the actual shattering happened (it happens pretty much on the last chapter, as thrall is discarding his armor after Cairne's pyre)

Also Skree, despite your pleas of defence for Hawthorne, regardless of what his intentions were, regardless of wheter or not he regrets it, regardless of wheter or not he's to blame, this entire thing started by these two comic pages wich some described as "exagerated fan fic".

as I've said a dozen times already, there are 2 diferent recounts of what happened. Hawthorne's version (AKA; almost nobody died), and the much more darker and edgier Tauren Version(AKA, A LOT OF PEOPLE DIED). I choose to believe the tauren version because:

A: they were THERE. Hawthorne was safely behind the main front of the battle (as I said before, unlike the movies, generals don't tend to go into the thick of battle, they are kinda harder to replace if they get wounded or killed) as such, one thing is to hear the version of the guy who planned the attack yet wasn't directly there to witness exactly how many escaped (and later send off recon troops to finish off any taurens in the plains) and another to hear the version of the widows, orphans, and battered survivors that depict just how cruel and bloody that night was, to the point that they renamed what was formerly known as the "Plains of taurajo" to "The fields of blood".

and

B: because all of this happened before a formal war declaration was issued. The very reason the camp was undefended was because the hunters were away. IF full war had broken out, IF honor stand was already hit, IF the shattering had already happened, then they would had been on high alert.

however they werent, because at the moment the attack happened: There was no shattering happening, there was no war happening, the nearby settlements of Crossroads and Honor Stand weren't being burned, and as such they assumed it was another safe day in the peacefull and quiet barrens.

in the minds of the alliance, their whole war is justified, but we know better, and since we know better, I choose who to believe.

Post by Adamsm

in the minds of the alliance, their whole war is justified, but we know better, and since we know better, I choose who to believe.Um....that's the view point of some of the orcs, the Forsaken as a whole, and quite a bit more then just the Alliance.....

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Post by Skreeran

But what I'm saying is that you can't just choose just one version of the other. Both are biased, both are flawed, and so you have to construct an objective perspective that combines the facts from both.

Also, recon troops are not assassins. Recon is short for reconnaissance, which means scouting. They're not out there to kill any Tauren they find, they're there to scout and find where the Horde is keeping their troops.

And I ask you to prove, without resorting to speculation, that Taurajo was hit before Honor's Stand and the Shattering. It just doesn't make sense. The Alliance's troops hit Crossroads first, before backpedaling to Honor's Stand. Taurajo is even further south than that. Are you telling me that the went north to Crossroads, south to Taurajo, and then back north to Honor's Stand?

Because if not, then it happened after the Horde attack on Gilneas and the Alliance kidnapping of Thrall, so the war was already on.How did you come to that conclusion?

Post by Monday

B: because all of this happened before a formal war declaration was issued. The very reason the camp was undefended was because the hunters were away. IF full war had broken out, IF honor stand was already hit, IF the shattering had already happened, then they would had been on high alert.

We don't know whether war had been declared or not. Nothing I have read or that has been said has confirmed that war had not begun. Also, how do you counter But remember, the Alliance has just gotten word that the Horde has A) killed almost everyone aboard an Alliance ship, B) butchered and skinned a number of Night Elves, and C) arranged a meeting with the Cenarion Circle only to betray them and kill them all.

Sounds like the Horde attacked first.

If full war had been declared, I still think they would have been out.

Why?

People need food. And secondly, Taurajo would be considered too far away to be a major strategic target for the Night Elves. However, it was the humans who attacked, which was completely unexpected.

A: they were THERE.

This invalidates their story. You do know that in any given situation the accounts of survivors/witnesses generally contradict each other and often tend to exaggerate?

Just because they were there doesn't mean they were a fountain of truth. They probably are exaggerating the number who died, how fast the Alliance attacked, how many there were, etc. It's natural.

Hawthorne was safely behind the main front of the battle (as I said before, unlike the movies, generals don't tend to go into the thick of battle, they are kinda harder to replace if they get wounded or killed)

This is Warcraft. Generals are always on the front lines.

B: because all of this happened before a formal war declaration was issued.

We do not know this! And from what I've heard, the Horde attacked the Alliance first.

in the minds of the alliance, their whole war is justified, but we know better, and since we know better, I choose who to believe.

"We"? Who is "we"? And what do you know better?

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Post by Rankkor

Is it written anywhere that Taurajo happened before the shattering or even before the southern barrens storyline? Because if not, then it happened after the Horde attack on Gilneas and the Alliance kidnapping of Thrall, so the war was already on.

Taurajo was undefended when the alliance attacked. That town woudn't had been unprotected if there was a full war going on, a cataclysm of apocaliptic proportions, and nearby settlements were already on fire.

the very reason Taurajo was such an easy target to hit was presicely because they were caught unaware. Do you REALLY think that could had been posible if they were hit "after" Honor Stand, and after the shattering? no way man.

also skree, as an ending line before I go to bed I'll say this:

if you wanna believe hawthorne (and at the same time believe that the survivors who actually LOST people in taurajo are exagerating) that's your choise, but me, when confronted by 2 versions of a tale, one wich says few lives were lost, and one wich says many lives were lost, I will stick to the ones who actually bear the scars of what happened.

(Hawthorne's stance of "I didn't wanted to finish them off" gets kinda weak when he sends off recon troops to kill any tauren on sight within the nearby plains of taurajo)

Edit: the "order" in wich they attack (as far as I can gather) is: they streamed from northwatch into taurajo (wich is quite close) to prevent tauren reinforcements, then moved north to the crossroads, and then moved west to Honor Stand before being splintered by the shattering and the great divide that happened as a consequence.

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Post by Skreeran

(Hawthorne's stance of "I didn't wanted to finish them off" gets kinda weak when he sends off recon troops to kill any tauren on sight within the nearby plains of taurajo)
I just explained that that is not what they were doing. Reconnaissance is not a synonym of assassination.

And I don't just believe Hawthorne. I believe that both sides of the story are tainted by bias and corner cutting, so I do my best to glean the fact from both, rather than simply saying "This story seems more likely to be true, so I'm going to completely disregard its counterpart." I do my best to remain objective, remember that people are flawed, and find the facts for myself.

Post by Monday

I could be wrong with that but wasn't taurajo a really small community? I think people would realize when most died.

Camp Taurajo had 500 people in it. That'd be pretty easy to mistake how many people died in the rush and confusion.

(Hawthorne's stance of "I didn't wanted to finish them off" gets kinda weak when he sends off recon troops to kill any tauren on sight within the nearby plains of taurajo)

Does not compute.

(and at the same time believe that the survivors who actually LOST people in taurajo are exagerating)

Oh, Hawthorne is certainly exaggerating his part, but most definitely the Taurajo Tauren are as well, possibly even more so (their story being more traumatic leads to greater exaggeration imo.)

the very reason Taurajo was such an easy target to hit was presicely because they were caught unaware. Do you REALLY think that could had been posible if they were hit "after" Honor Stand, and after the shattering?

So... the Alliance marched into enemy territory, past a much larger town (Crossroads has 6,000 people in it) to attack a smaller town, then fell back and just happened to hit the larger and defended town on their way back.

What? How does that even contain a semblance of strategy?

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Post by Rankkor

So... the Alliance marched into enemy territory, past a much larger town (Crossroads has 6,000 people in it) to attack a smaller town, then fell back and just happened to hit the larger and defended town on their way back.

What? How does that even contain a semblance of strategy?

ejem, Taurajo is closed to northwathc than crossroads. It actually makes sence that they streamed out of northwatch, send a force to taurajo to prevent tauren reinforcements, while the rest marched to the crossroads to do the diversion attack, and then pushed to Honor's Stand.

Taurajo isn't mentioned anywhere in this, Rank. He may have mentioned "marching south", but there's no way the Alliance force marched halfway across the Barrens in the dark of night, took out Taurajo, and then marched all the way back to Honor's stand by dawn. The attack on Camp T had to have been more recent than that.

I don't think so. The NPC quote isn't what I use as basis to think that taurajo was hit before the war. I use that NPC quote as my basis to say that the alliance trew the first stone (mainly because on the book "The Shattering" the alliance and horde weren't at war, in fact thrall apologized for the attacks made by the twilight hammer, and the actual cataclysm happened just on the last pages of the book, likewise there is NO evidence whatsoever that the horde made any actual move against the alliance previous to the cataclysm, but there IS evidence that the alliance made a move against the horde before the cataclysm)

what I use as evidence that taurajo was among the targets hit before the war is the following circunstances:

first of all during this quest you have to honor de dead of some of the civilians who didn't managed to escape, as you eulogize them, their spirits rise up and sort of relive their last moments shortly before they were killed.

particulary intresting is this NPC:

Yonada (Tailoring Supplier)
Yonada's Spirit says: Alliance - they've surrounded the camp! What are they doing here? Why are they attacking Taurajo? Get the children - run! RUN!

why is she surprised? if the alliance and horde were at war already and the hit on taurajo happened much later than the hit on honor's stand, she shoudn't be so surprised to see soldiers there. Did the villagers of Vietnam became shocked or surprised to see american soldiers surrouding their villages? nope, cuz vietnam was at war with america, thus if you spoted GI's coming to your village, you should know exactly why they are there, and exactly what they want.

would villagers in a small rural town in Bolivia become surprised if they see american soldiers surrouding their village? yep, cuz Bolivia and America aren't at war, thus there shouldn't be any significant military presence within bolivian borders.

in this particular case, taurajo was tauren land, they get surrouded by alliance forces and they are actually shocked and surprised, something that just wound NOT happen if full blown war was already happening.

the second circunstance that leads me to believe utterly and completely that taurajo was hit before the war happened, was the unprotected state of the village.

Think bout it. Do you think that during an actual war, a state of emergency, a cataclysmic apocalipse the hunters would go hunting and leave the town unprotected? they did do because at the moment there was no war, there was no shattering, there was peace, it was just another dull peacefull quiet night on the barrens, and thus they had no reason to suspect their town was going to be hit by massive military, they only left a token guard to protect the town from minor treaths like the wild animals and the ocational quillboar raiders, but not enough to repell a masive military platoon because they had no reasons to believe such platoon would attack their town.

I do my best to remain objective, remember that people are flawed, and find the facts for myself.

do the horde quests bro' see for yourself the gritty state of the tauren, the tons of badly wounded refugees on camp una'fe, the crying widows, the baby orphans, the many quotes from the quests and gossip text. Hawthorne may say as much as he like that "many" escaped, I won't buy it, I refuse. Taurajo was a slaughter of civilians, and as much as Hawthorne tried to minimize the damage (something that I genuly aplaud and salute) in my eyes ,he failed, people died, and thus he earned every ounce of hatred the tauren have for him.

put yourself in the tauren position. Lets asume America was at war with and they invade your country, a general from the oposite army invades your town, and leaves a small gap to allow civilians to escape, yet during the chaos of the fighting your entire family, and friends dies, and your house is sacked and burned to the ground.

would you remain objective and shake the hand of the general?

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Post by Skreeran

ejem, Taurajo is closed to northwathc than crossroads. It actually makes sence that they streamed out of northwatch, send a force to taurajo to prevent tauren reinforcements, while the rest marched to the crossroads to do the diversion attack, and then pushed to Honor's Stand.That's speculation, and that won't fly here, I'm afraid.

in fact thrall apologized for the attacks made by the twilight hammerSmall correction: he didn't. Orcs do no apologize for past actions, nor do they expect apologies from others. I only learned this relatively recently (it's in the HPG), and it made a lot of things make a lot more sense.

Thrall wanted to apologize, because he was raised by humans, but if he did so, the Horde would be rioting.

why is she surprised? if the alliance and horde were at war already and the hit on taurajo happened much later than the hit on honor's stand, she shoudn't be so surprised to see soldiers there. Did the villagers of Vietnam became shocked or surprised to see american soldiers surrouding their villages? nope, cuz vietnam was at war with america, thus if you spoted GI's coming to your village, you should know exactly why they are there, and exactly what they want.

would villagers in a small rural town in Bolivia become surprised if they see american soldiers surrouding their village? yep, cuz Bolivia and America aren't at war, thus there shouldn't be any significant military presence within bolivian borders.

in this particular case, taurajo was tauren land, they get surrouded by alliance forces and they are actually shocked and surprised, something that just wound NOT happen if full blown war was already happening.Remember, there is no internet in Warcraft. Any news of the attack on the Crossroads and Honor's Stand would have to be sent by courier. If they attacked Honor's Stand first, they could very well be at Taurajo before news of the war broke out.

do the horde quests bro' see for yourself the gritty state of the tauren, the tons of badly wounded refugees on camp una'fe, the crying widows, the baby orphans, the many quotes from the quests and gossip text. Hawthorne may say as much as he like that "many" escaped, I won't buy it, I refuse. Taurajo was a slaughter of civilians, and as much as Hawthorne tried to minimize the damage (something that I genuly aplaud and salute) in my eyes ,he failed, people died, and thus he earned every ounce of hatred the tauren have for him.I can't do the Horde quests.

And yes, many escaped, but that doesn't mean many didn't die. He never said most of them escaped. It's true, the Alliance side tends to downplay the slaughter, but it's quite possible that the traumatized victims don't have all the facts either. We have to be responsible and consider both stories, rather than simply siding with one or the other.

put yourself in the tauren position. Lets asume America was at war with and they invade your country, a general from the oposite army invades your town, and leaves a small gap to allow civilians to escape, yet during the chaos of the fighting your entire family, and friends dies, and your house is sacked and burned to the ground.

would you remain objective and shake the hand of the general?Of course not, but that is a subjective position. We here, in the real world, debating about the event, are not directly invested in what happened, and have access to all of the available facts. You can argue that someone is subjectively right, just as you can argue that Varian and the Alliance are right to feel like they do about the Horde from their perspective, but as objective observers, we know that they are not necessarily objectively right. Were I a Tauren, of course I would be enraged with Hawthorne, but I am not. From an Alliance perspective, not only did he do what had to be done (in regards to strategy and the Horde), but he also went above and beyond what he was required to do by taking extra steps to ensure a way for the civilians to escape, which is something that extremely few people seem to do (just looking at history: Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Stalingrad, and that's just on the Allied side of WWII).

From my objective perspective, Hawthorne was an exceptional general who did his best to minimize Horde casualties, which is far more than any other Alliance commander I've seen. His best was still not enough to prevent all the casualties, but I don't blame him for that. War is chaotic, and you can't predict who is going to die, and sometimes things just go wrong. There's a reason that it's called the Fog of War.

Oh, and I just wanted to say, I am enjoying this debate, even if it is tiring. Debates make you consider the issue a lot more in depth, and from a lot more angles than just a quick skim.

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Post by Rankkor

Oh, and I just wanted to say, I am enjoying this debate, even if it is tiring. Debates make you consider the issue a lot more in depth, and from a lot more angles than just a quick skim.

;P amen, and trust me, I'm enjoying this debate too.

Heated debates can be fun (as long as the people debating don't attack one another, wich is not happening here now that the conflictive users have left)

I'll post a more proper response to your new arguments later, I'm at the office now, and my boss is in a foul mood.

Post by Diamonddug

Yonada (Tailoring Supplier)
Yonada's Spirit says: Alliance - they've surrounded the camp! What are they doing here? Why are they attacking Taurajo? Get the children - run!
why is she surprised? if the alliance and horde were at war already and the hit on taurajo happened much later than the hit on honor's stand, she shoudn't be so surprised to see soldiers there.
Because as a civilan Yonada didn't see Taurajo as a military target.Why was America so suprised on Sept 11 ben Laden had declared war on Americia.Because The world trade center was not a military target.

in this particular case, taurajo was tauren land, they get surrouded by alliance forces and they are actually shocked and surprised, something that just wound NOT happen if full blown war was already happening.
If al-Qaeda, invaded Bangor Maine(BIA is the last place soldiers leave from in America before going to Afghanistan or Iraq it also has a National guard base and refuling wing there) all the people in Bangor would be in shock and suprised even though we are in a state of war with al-Qaeda because the people don't see Bangor as a Military target.

the second circunstance that leads me to believe utterly and completely that taurajo was hit before the war happened, was the unprotected state of the village.

Think bout it. Do you think that during an actual war, a state of emergency, a cataclysmic apocalipse the hunters would go hunting and leave the town unprotected?

Yes because they Hunters didn't see them selfs or the camp as targets and the camp needed food.

they did do because at the moment there was no war,.
King Varian Wrynn had declared war at the end of the Battle for Undercity.His exact words were: The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
Thrall knew that this statment was a declearation of war by the Alliance to the Horde.

there was no shattering, there was peace, it was just another dull peacefull quiet night on the barrens, and thus they had no reason to suspect their town was going to be hit by massive military,
The King of the humans had said :Putress was the first strike. Many more will come. They(The Horde) were at war they(Camp Taurajo) had a reason to suspect but they(Camp Taurajo) didn't want to belive they(Camp Taurajo) were at risk.

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