An(other) Extensive List of Fan-Made Hunter Changes

Post by Interest

Hunters have evolved nicely since I previously created a changelog back in Cataclysm. Some things got better, such as Hunters finally losing their deadzone. Other things, however, got worse or were left largely unaddressed, such as the Marksmanship specialization's design and general performance throughout Mists of Pandaria.

Warlords of Draenor in particular brought a number of changes to every class in the form of ability pruning, new talents, perks, and the like. However, in the process, some problems arose while others were once again left (largely) unaddressed. For instance, the general gameplay feels a little weaker and less deep (though this is a problem with many classes/specs imo).

A few months ago, I wrote up an article discussing these issues and offering a massive number of changes that almost come off as an overhaul of the class. However, these changes ideally wouldn't take a significant amount of work to implement overall due largely to the usage of existing in-game systems and mechanics when brainstorming the suggestions.

This article contains the following:

A large amount of quality of life changes, some of which frankly needed addressing since Cataclysm.
A redesigned, reliable utility move (to replace Aspect of the Fox).
The Frenzy resource mechanic for Beast Mastery, which fuels Bestial Wrath in a way similar to Metamorphosis or League of Legends Shyvana ult.
Changes that alter Beast Mastery's "flavor" to be more in tune with a Hunter commanding their beast to attack enemies through direct interaction.
The return of "Arcane Shot" to Marksmanship.
A new scaling proc mechanic for Marksmanship, plus a mastery change to work around this new proc.
A rework of Lock and Load for Survival to scale better.
A new mastery for Survival that adds dynamic through a stacking effect and Explosive Trap, thus filling a void where Kill Shot previously was.
A more definitive secondary stat priority for all specs beyond stacking a single secondary stat.
And more...

If there's enough demand, I'll try to reformat the article and paste it here, but hopefully the mods are okay with me just linking the article for now since it contains formatting that (hopefully) makes the information easier to read. (Critical) Feedback for this would be awesome, since I'm afraid I haven't gotten too much.

With that said, here's the article: http://postmasterinterest.blogspot.com/2015/02/world-of-warcraft-comprehensive-list-of.html

Post by Suidonic

SV
One of my main problems with SV currently is that Lone Wolf is generally the best dps option. Hunters should not be playing without pets! It's just unnatural...

I like being able to provide whatever buff is needed, which we can with pets, but I they should change this so the buff aspect of lone wolf can be applied with a pet out.

I agree with you that without kill shot there isn't really any burst and it gets a bit boring to play. My main issue with that is in PvP though, where I don't seem to get any bust as SV (although I have a lot more issues with PvP in general..). I know I should probably switch specs I like SV.

Post by Interest

I have a personal problem with Lone Wolf, but at the same time, I am glad the option is there because there has been significant demand through the ages for petless gameplay. HOWEVER, while Lone Wolf being the most optimal talent is more of a balancing issue that, imo, should be equal to at least one other talent in the 100 tier, there are some pretty major oversights that make the talent suboptimal in other ways, which I highlighted in the article.
I agree with you that without kill shot there isn't really any burst and it gets a bit boring to play. My main issue with that is in PvP though, where I don't seem to get any bust as SV (although I have a lot more issues with PvP in general..). I know I should probably switch specs I like SV.

I actually addressed this with the Lock and Load change. Since Survival Hunter will start with Lock and Load up when they enter combat initially, they get 3 Explosive Shots of burst which overall isn't super game-breaking, but it does provide an initial burst of damage that can put enemies off balance. In addition, the Mastery making Explosive Shot a nuke should theoretically deal significant burst damage.

Post by Suidonic

Post by Interest

I actually addressed this with the Lock and Load change. Since Survival Hunter will start with Lock and Load up when they enter combat initially, they get 3 Explosive Shots of burst which overall isn't super game-breaking, but it does provide an initial burst of damage that can put enemies off balance. In addition, the Mastery making Explosive Shot a nuke should theoretically deal significant burst damage.

Sorry I read it then replied a week later which didn't really help. I'm also used to the 2 tier set bonus so adding a lock and load proc at the start of the fight as being an extra burst didn't really register when I read it, having six in quick succession would be good though.

I considered having more than 3 at the start would be very unfair (there's already a problem with getting killed too fast as it is), especially at higher tiers. In addition, while in combat, Survival can line up a whopping 5 Explosive Shots due to their new perk, and the rate it builds in PvP due to singular Multistrikes provides enough time for enemy counterplay.

Post by musibike

I had a real problem getting kicked out of Dungeons. My pet uses a thing called GROWL to TAUNT away attackers from me. But, healers in some of the dungeons said that that feature makes the WOLF act badly. So, I kept getting licked till one of them told me about the problem. So, turn off GROWL when doing group dungeons.

Post by Interest

Uh...I'm afraid I'm unsure how that related to a list of suggestions for the Hunter class o.0

Post by Suidonic

So after being forced into playing MM in 6.2 (my gear wasn't set up for BM after playing SV) I thought I’d come back and read your suggested changes as it’s such a boring spec to play!

Arcane Shot is once again available for Marksmanship, but renamed to Piercing Shot. Piercing Shot deals an equivalent amount of damage as armour (I had to add the 'u' sorry :P) penetrating Physical damage.
This. Obviously there aren't going to any major changes but it would be nice to have another instant damage shot (although you could argue that the t18 4 set solves that problem somewhat once people get it, at least for a while).

Shaft Shot is a new passive learned at level 25. Instant cast shots that cost Focus will generate one charge of Shaft Shot if it critically strikes the primary target (including for multi-target abilities). Aimed Shot and Powershot will always generate one charge of Shaft Shot, with critical strikes generating two charges. Up to five charges of Shaft Shot can be accumulated, or six if Focusing Shot is taken. Shaft Shot charges cause Steady Shot and Focusing Shot to become instant cast and deal increased damage based on Haste. Instant Steady Shots consume one charge while instant Focusing Shots consume two.

I like the idea of Shaft Shot to give you instant focus gain shots but I can’t see it changing the rotation at all or making it more interesting to play, just possible makes the spec even more OP haha. I agree that the spec doesn’t really work with the idea of hunters though with so many long cast times so it would be a good change to have.

Mastery: Sniper Training has been changed to Mastery: Barbed Projectiles. Mastery: Barbed Projectiles increases the damage of all damaging abilities that cost Focus by X% + Y% for 4 seconds (duration may need to be changed) when a Shaft Shot charge is consumed. Consuming multiple Shaft Shot charges extends the duration of the effect.
I like this idea of change in principle but I agree with you that it could scale significantly with crit percentage at higher levels of gear as it is probably like that the mastery effect would be up constantly, especially when careful aim is active.

Enhanced Kill Shot has been replaced with Chimaera Shot: Hydra's Ire, which causes Multi-Shots to generate a charge of Hydra's Ire, which increases the number of targets Chimaera Shot strikes by one, stacking up to three times for a maximum of five targets struck. While Hydra's Ire is active, Chimaera Shot is morphed into Hydra Shot and secondary targets struck randomly suffer Fire, Nature, or Frost damage. Critical strikes on secondary targets have a 50% chance of generating a Shaft Shot charge for both Chimaera Shot and Hydra Shot.

If this was a talent choice or a glyph then I love this change! Otherwise I would rather keep kill shot for raiding situations. MM aoe is weak and it would be nice to have a way to increase the damage but I don’t think there would be many boss fights where this would be a benefit over kill shot. The spec makes up for it with its single (2 if you include Chimera cleave) target dps and you can always switch to BM if needed. I would rather have a kill shot change in pvp where the CD doesn’t refresh if used against an enemy player as I agree that it is a bit over powered currently.

Chimaera Shot and Hydra Shot's target detection range has been increased to that of Multi-Shot (if this isn't already the case yet).
I want this change regardless of anything else as it’s annoying when adds aren’t being tanked quite close enough together!

When I ultimately ended up playing the specialization to deal optimal damage, the gameplay was painfully dissatisfying and boring.
At least I'm not alone :) can you get onto the Blizz development team please?

Post by Interest

This. Obviously there aren't going to any major changes but it would be nice to have another instant damage shot (although you could argue that the t18 4 set solves that problem somewhat once people get it, at least for a while).

I saw that set effect and had mixed feelings. In one camp I'm glad Blizzard in some way recognized a playstyle largely being based around cast times, particularly for the melee-gameplay-like Hunter-that-already-requires-cast-times-to-generate-Focus isn't necessarily fun for everyone (or perhaps just generally fun). In the other I wish they'd just add some instant Focus dump so Marksmanship isn't left high and dry (especially) in competitive PvP due to what looks like blatant design intent.

I like the idea of Shaft Shot to give you instant focus gain shots but I can’t see it changing the rotation at all or making it more interesting to play, just possible makes the spec even more OP haha. I agree that the spec doesn’t really work with the idea of hunters though with so many long cast times so it would be a good change to have.

This is not really intended to be much of a major gameplay change. It works exactly as you described. A few other changes account for Marksmanship potentially having a gameplay shift (such as switching from Piercing Shot focus dump to Aimed Shot while Rapid Fire is active).

Fun fact: Shaft Shot has had many iterations. I've constantly been trying to implement something like this that activates off critical strikes but in such a clever way it's not like old BC Kill Command.

I like this idea of change in principle but I agree with you that it could scale significantly with crit percentage at higher levels of gear as it is probably like that the mastery effect would be up constantly, especially when careful aim is active.

This is true, but the exponential growth should be ideally be curbed significantly since Sniper Training's damage bonuses from its normal damage bonus and critical strike damage bonus are almost certainly multiplicative, while this mastery is additive (1 + X + Y, instead of (1 + X) * (1 + Y)). This should result in a far smoother curve where the Mastery ultimately grants a flat damage increase per point.

Otherwise I would rather keep kill shot for raiding situations.

Short of Blizzard altering how perks works in PvP, if the Kill Shot perk (and by extension, the Hammer of Wrath one) remains, the range of an execute is increased by 75% for each, which as I've mentioned, has dangerous implications in PvP. Also, since this is likely a large source of damage output, it could be focused somewhere else. If execution range in general is a problem, the execution range could be increased to 25% or something (a 25% increase) with an appropriate damage adjustment.

As it is, I may need to alter how Hydra's Ire works since I've seen people note that the effect might be too strong due to how much damage Chimaera Shot deals. I may need to weaken the cleave or something.

Also, when it comes to having more Kill Shot situations over AoE ones, from what I can tell, this is largely a consequence of HFC's design (which is probably partially why BM got pushed out due to their excellent AoE but inferior single target).

On another, related note, I generally feel uncomfortable with Kill Shot and how it seems to scale very hard. I get that it's an execute, but the damage is in danger of being imbalanced (probably alongside other executes).

I want this change regardless of anything else as it’s annoying when adds aren’t being tanked quite close enough together!

You and me and apparently a lot of MM Hunters are all in agreement. I'm unsure what they were thinking when they programmed Chimaera Shot's target detection.

At least I'm not alone :) can you get onto the Blizz development team please?

To be fair, there's a little subjectivity there. As for getting onto the development team, I find the prospect unlikely, unfortunately. Who knows though?

Post by Suidonic

Sorry for the slow reply (again)!

I saw that set effect and had mixed feelings. In one camp I'm glad Blizzard in some way recognized a playstyle largely being based around cast times, particularly for the melee-gameplay-like Hunter-that-already-requires-cast-times-to-generate-Focus isn't necessarily fun for everyone (or perhaps just generally fun). In the other I wish they'd just add some instant Focus dump so Marksmanship isn't left high and dry (especially) in competitive PvP due to what looks like blatant design intent.

Well at my current rate of getting tier gear I might have the four set by next expansion! I’ve gotten used to playing MM now but I still hate the large cast times, I’d rather have my shots do less damage but be instant. The Wrath time-walking dungeons last weekend brought back (fond) memories of having mana, which clearly made no sense! But having focus to fire shots doesn’t really make much sense to me either…

I wonder if it’s possible to get rid of focus and replace steady/cobra shot with something like load/prepare arrow (or bullet for those strange people who like guns) which has a cast time similar to steady shot. You could prepare up to a maximum of say three arrows which might differ depending on spec, SV would probably need more or Lock ‘n’ Load doesn’t need them, so it could mirror the current mechanics. Out of combat this number could then reset to 1-3 shots. Although still not perfect it just seems like that would fit more with the idea of a hunter, to me at least. Hopefully it could be worked so that it doesn't change the play style currently.

Short of Blizzard altering how perks works in PvP, if the Kill Shot perk (and by extension, the Hammer of Wrath one) remains, the range of an execute is increased by 75% for each, which as I've mentioned, has dangerous implications in PvP. Also, since this is likely a large source of damage output, it could be focused somewhere else. If execution range in general is a problem, the execution range could be increased to 25% or something (a 25% increase) with an appropriate damage adjustment.

As it is, I may need to alter how Hydra's Ire works since I've seen people note that the effect might be too strong due to how much damage Chimaera Shot deals. I may need to weaken the cleave or something.

Good point, I hadn’t thought of that. That could be some insane damage hitting five targets with chimera shot when it crits and multistrikes!

Also, when it comes to having more Kill Shot situations over AoE ones, from what I can tell, this is largely a consequence of HFC's design (which is probably partially why BM got pushed out due to their excellent AoE but inferior single target).

On another, related note, I generally feel uncomfortable with Kill Shot and how it seems to scale very hard. I get that it's an execute, but the damage is in danger of being imbalanced (probably alongside other executes).

I’ve never really understood why the Kill Shot cooldown resets if the target doesn’t die. If I remember correctly there used to be a glyph that had the same effect so it’s always been the case (at least since Wrath)? I also don’t understand why SV, the spec without any burst, doesn’t have Kill Shot anymore while the other two do? I don’t PvP anywhere near as much as I used to so I wouldn’t be too bothered about a change in that, but as you said with HFC MM is the better spec because of adds that need to be single targeted and die quickly, so I’d be annoyed if it was removed altogether.

To be fair, there's a little subjectivity there. As for getting onto the development team, I find the prospect unlikely, unfortunately. Who knows though?

I'm sure we could start a petition on WowHead :)

Post by Interest

I wonder if it’s possible to get rid of focus and replace steady/cobra shot with something like load/prepare arrow (or bullet for those strange people who like guns) which has a cast time similar to steady shot. You could prepare up to a maximum of say three arrows which might differ depending on spec, SV would probably need more or Lock ‘n’ Load doesn’t need them, so it could mirror the current mechanics. Out of combat this number could then reset to 1-3 shots. Although still not perfect it just seems like that would fit more with the idea of a hunter, to me at least. Hopefully it could be worked so that it doesn't change the play style currently.

It's possible, but problematic. It would almost certainly have to be a damaging attack of some sort otherwise Focus dumps would deal ridiculous damage. That's the reason filler skills exist.

Also, the Focus system at the moment isn't that bad. It's a mix of a lot of existing systems and very intuitive to understand. It was incredibly unwieldy at first because of issues such as immobility outside of Aspect of the Fox and a lack of secondary Focus generation/savings through passive effects (in short it felt very half-finished overall compared to other resource systems).

Good point, I hadn’t thought of that. That could be some insane damage hitting five targets with chimera shot when it crits and multistrikes!

After a long brainstorm I opted against. I find it highly unlikely that it'll end up being insane in PvP since Multishot is really weak as hell overall and telegraphs Hydra's Ire stacking, which leaves PvE where it's more of a non-issue since the damage dealt actually should even itself out (that's the theory, anyways).

I'm sure we could start a petition on WowHead :)

I'm afraid there's not a lot of us. Also, I have looked into the toils of development. I'm almost certain I'm not prepared.

An(other) Extensive List of Fan-Made Hunter Changes

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