Proof that Ret burst died with 3.1.3. (Warning - lots of numbers!)

Publicado por Squishalot

Ok, so with all the news about the nerfs to Paladins, I thought it might be interesting to try to prove that Paladins can't wipe the floor with somebody while tied up with their arms behind their backs blindfolded kneeling on one leg. Or geared, for that matter.

Edit: This is in response to all those people who are QQ'ing that they're getting facerolled by Ret Pallies. This isn't me QQ'ing about the state of where Ret pallies are, because I think it's 'fair' at the moment. This is simply a numerical response that the QQ about Paladins are, without links or theorycrafting, full of crap. (See sig.)

In ilvl239 gear (Ulduar 25), and wielding an ilvl219 Edge of Ruin (for lack of any other weapon choices that come to mind, I'm using an old template), and buffed with Kings, Might and Horn of Winter, we have the following stats:

Strength: 2478
Attack Power: 6195
Spell Power: 1858 (from AP)
Crit: 38.81%
Raid hit-capped
Expertise: 17

Melee damage: 2703-3079
Crusader Strike: 2564-2921
Divine Storm: 3270-3725
Judgement (SoR, glyphed): 3038

Ok, so in the first 5 seconds, we do:

2x Melee: max 3079 x2 = 6158
Crusader Strike x2: max 2921 x 2 = 5842
Divine Storm: max 3725
Judgement: max 3038

Total damage: 18,763 - with crits, this goes up to 37,526.

The chance of dishing out that much damage is 0.34%, to get 6 crits in a row. Also note - this assumes that you've already got 3/3 Vengeance up, and assumes that each attack does max damage.

Average damage vs PvE geared opponent:

Melee: 7896
Crusader Strike: 7490
Divine Storm: 4777
Judgement: 4764
SoR procs: 422*6 = 2532

Total damage: 27,459, to an enemy with zero armour.

Judgement/Seal damage isn't mitigated by armour. Assuming your opponent has just 20% armour mitigation, we do:

7298 Holy Damage
20161 Physical Damage * 0.8 = 16129 damage.

So against a PvE opponent with 20% armour mitigation, we would do 23,427 damage. Fair enough. We're ilvl239 geared.

Against a PvP opponent:

I'm going to argue the case against an opponent with 800 resilience. Why 800? No real reason, it's neither here nor there, but it's reasonable for someone who's geared entirely for PvP.

800 res = 8.5% crit reduction, 8.5% less damage taken generally, 18.7% less damage taken from crits.

Now, when we redo our calcs:

Melee average damage: 3268*2 = 6536
CS: 3101*2 = 6202
DS: 3954
JoR: 3823
SoR: 386*6 = 2316

Holy Damage: 6139
Physical Damage: 16692 * 0.8 = 13354

Total damage against 800 Res opponent in cloth and no other forms of damage reduction: 19,493.

Against a plate wearer with 50% physical damage reduction:
Holy Damage: 6139
Physical Damage: 16992 * 0.5 = 8496
Total Damage: 14,635

That's with four cooldowns, in PvE gear for extra damage. I fail to see how we could possibly kill someone in real PvP (as opposed to BG crap against PvE geared players) as quickly as people suggest. Numbers are a bit hand-wavy, but it's close enough to get the picture.

Publicado por 127599

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Publicado por hashmel

dear sir or madam,

We are deeply saddened you can no longer faceroll a fully pvp geared player within 5 or fewer seconds and we regretfully inform you that from here on you will be required to use some sort of skill to compete.

"some sort of skill" sold separately, see your local vendor for paladin only +win gems and your class trainer for divine eye lazers

thank you for your time and attention,

"working as intended," Blizzard

Publicado por Squishalot

Heh, if people would admit that we can't faceroll someone in 5 seconds, then I'd be happy. But plenty of people still think we can.

"working as intended," Blizzard

Obviously not, because if it was, then GC wouldn't be unwrapping the latest set of nerfs. *cough*

No, seriously - how undergeared / noobish do you need to be in order to be facerolled by a Paladin nowadays? Those numbers seem 'fair' to me, in the vein of lava burst crits and long-range triple shatters. I don't see why everyone else is QQ'ing about Paladin PvP when they're obviously not geared for the occasion.

Publicado por TheJohan

I decided to roll a paladin after geting constantly ganked by paladins. Once, i was mounted, flying low, when a paladin ran up, stunned me and facerolled so hard i died while holding space pushed firmly down to fly away.

This is no longer teh case. Now i play a paladin, and i admit im not very skilled at pvp, but i certanly can't kill anyone before my stuns wear off.

I think people just QQ at paladins because they are used to it, and probably just drop everything and give up when they meet one, because they "know" they'll get facerolled anyway.

Divine eyelazors ftw. Just dont give them forebearance. :(

Publicado por AnrDaemon

I dunno. From my 80' I see pretty much any horde bumping me. Pretty often it is their suicide idea, just because I live long enough to outperform them, even if i'm low on mana (read: can't use burst). (Ye, sorry, i'm prot :P )

Publicado por 404544

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Publicado por blademeld

With sanctified wrath it cuts through 50% damage reduction too.

Means nothing for this theorycraft.

Publicado por 404544

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Publicado por blademeld

Unless you're saying they aren't affected by this talent.

They're not.

edit: sorry, I was referring to the first part.

Publicado por Squishalot

Squish: Did you count avenging wrath? With sanctified wrath it cuts through 50% damage reduction too. Kinda helps the burst.
I have reasonable pvp gear, savage saronite, some deadly. 20k hp, I still got 2-shotted by destro locks with fire res aura on.....

It does. However, it only cuts through 50% of the damage reduction, and it means that the Paladin can't bubble due to Forbearance. The complaint is that Paladins can rip someone to shreds then bubble/lay on hands or bubble/heal and reset the fight at 3v2.

In that respect, it's not relevant to the argument. It's about 4k damage against a PvP cloth opponent, or 2k damage against a PvE cloth opponent. I think people wouldn't be complaining terribly much if paladins did an extra ~~10%~~ 25% damage but couldn't bubble/heal, which they can't if they use Avenging Wrath. That's the point of all the QQ - that we're offensive *and* defensive. Avenging Wrath is one of the abilities we have that was balanced properly - you can be offensive, but it comes at the price of losing your bubble.

Also, consider that this guy is pretty buffed - Kings, Imp Might and Horn of Winter. In 1v1, or in a BG environment (other than the first kill), he's likely to only have Kings or Might active. And he's in PvE gear - he'd have to give up some 800 item points on resilience, and even more on Stamina to switch to PvP gear. Furthermore, if we're assuming all buffs, then the target is likely to have Kings and Power Word: Fortitude, meaning that your 20k HP is going to be sitting somewhere closer to 23-24k.

Realistically, those numbers will only be going downwards in a real-life scenario.

Publicado por RamRod10

Anyone who has played a pally during end game content should know we lost our burst capabilities when they removed seal of blood in patch 3.2. This was exactly what blizzard wanted do do with our class, get rid of the burst damage and give us a sustained damage capability for fights. Our damage done has gone up for raid bosses, but no we can't kill a clothie before they get a cast off anymore.

Proof that Ret burst died with 3.1.3. (Warning - lots of numbers!)

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