Arcane, FFB, and FB/TTW... oh my

Beitrag von 321419

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Achloryn

I have had a few people tell me that Arcane isn't worth it because the dps is lower and they go oom too quickly. I have been leveling arcane since level 71 and I haven't noticed myself lacking. I've read some of the helpful threads and the Arcane Thread on elitistjerks.com. I just still don't know how to explain to them that my DPS can be much higher if I need at the cost of my mana but it is about balance and speed not crit, crit, and more crit. Is the difference between these specs too drastic for people to understand and what is a good way to show them the advantages we arcane have/bring to a group?

I'm not opposed to being different from the majority as long as I can back up the reason. I figured that there are some people here that might be able to help me explain the advantages of having an Arcane mage.

wait till you're 80, and start raiding as arcane... you'll see what they're talking about going oom fast (with a rotation of 3x ABl, AMissiles on everyone you come across, yeah... you will).

However, people who say that it isn't worth the DPS are probably referring more to fights in ulduar where there is a lot of aoe based attacks and fights where you simply cannot stay still. Arcane's rotation is very mana heavy, but it also relies on the 2m evocation cooldown to keep you mostly in the thick of the good rotation. Fights like hodir, don't always allow you 6 seconds to stand still to evocate because of all the falling ice and the debuffs from.. well.. not moving.

however, for regular 5 man instances and naxx 10/25, os 10/25, you can do just fine as arcane. Going oom quickly won't be nearly as critical since 99.9% of the fights you just don't have to move anywhere near as much as you do in ulduar. Arcane is being outdistanced in the t8 raids by fire/ttw and frostfire, but you've got a lot of gear to get before you reach that point so enjoy what you want to do in the mean time. There's nothing wrong with arcane pre-ulduar.

Beitrag von 369861

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Achloryn

Arcane is still doing fine in Ulduar.. Now that FB/ttw and arcane requires barely different gearing, the spec dps highly depends on you current gear-talent fit.
let me rephrase myself a bit differently..
it's better to have 2 t7.5 and 2 t8.5 for arcane than 4 t8.5, cause the set bonus is worthless. (missile barrage would wear off by the time you get 3 more stacks of ABl). I consider the fact that gear that's not as good overall does better for a spec than having the best gear to be a... handicap of sorts.

Someone having 600 haste / 19% spell crit is doin a real good dps in arcane, but barely worse in FB/ttw, while 250 haste / 30 crit is a lot more suitable for FB/ttw spec.

Truly, 600 haste will kill your mana regen in Ulda though :) so I'd still advise keeping haste around 450 and go for spirit instead in the gemming point rather than haste.
i think 600 haste would kill your mana for arcane, regardless of where you are.. the problem with ulduar is the fact that there is so much movement, so much AOE, that arcane just doesn't keep up quite as well. so many bosses with adds and a lot of moving around..

The lot of moving isn't that much a truly big issue for arc I think as you cast your AB faster than a FB, also can spam Abarr while running... true; evo requires some standing, and living bomb has nice crits for one click :)
yes, you do cast AB faster than FB, but if you're spamming ABarr while running, you're doing your dps wrong and KILLING it.. sit at a heroic dummy, and spam abarr.. then do your standard rotation of 3 ABl, ABarr (or AM, depending)... tell me which does better dps. Trying to get 3 stacks of ABL on hodir is almost impossible with all the movement between avoiding the ice flows and avoiding the biting cold debuff. It's hard in Ignis between avoiding all of the scorch towers, the adds, and being thrown in the slag pot. It's hard on Auriya because she keeps fearing and interrupting and the kitties keep pouncing and you have to avoid the void zones... kinda see where i'm going here? From a pure DPS statistical standpoint, yes Arcane still is comparitively just as good as Fire/TTW or FFB, but with the mechanics of the fights within Ulduar make it not perform as well as it should.

Beitrag von 321419

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von 328079

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Ethiery

I've seen mages running all kinds of specs right now. I still prefer deep fire, but for laughs (And lack of a boomkin/spriest, and my butt being too stubborn to drop a few pieces I love for more hit....)

I raided as Arcane. I loved it for fights like Razorscale, that "OHMYGODKILLNOW" moment, Arcane is just so much more suited for it. And the AoE improvement was nice on the trash on XT.

Hodir.... Hodir was tricky. We wiped first try but I learned something valuable. To raid as Arcane in Ulduar you -HAVE- to be planning ahead. You can't go on the fly. You need to watch your DBM and know what's coming. Hodir you're gonna have to be ready for the "LoL Island" parts, that is your only chance to evocate "safely" during that whole fight.

Beitrag von 383504

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Achloryn

I'm arcane spec, and only doing Naxx and OS currently. I am finding it interesting that folks are saying arcane dps is low in Ulduar because of the movement needed.

I understand about the interruption of Evocation, but with Fire or FFB, wouldnt the only spells you would be able to cast when movement is an issue be Living Bomb and Scorch? I cant believe dps would be better than arcane if that is the case.

Or am I completely missing something? Thanks!

the problem with higher end content and arcane is this... arcane is much better suited from the naxx gear than it is from ulduar gear.. your dps is higher using two pieces of t7.5 and two pieces of t8.5 than using a full t8.5 set.. why? mainly, the 8.5 set is much more crit centric than haste centric, and the 4pc kirin tor set bonus is worthless for arcane mages. Not consuming your MB procs when you cast it does nothing for arcane dps, because by the time you cast 3 more stacks of arcane blast, it will have worn off again anyway. If you cast your MB twice in a row, then you're losing out on dps by not having your missiles hit as hard as they should.

also, with the mana issues that arcane has, and the amount of adds that boss fights are prone to having in ulduar, fire and frostfire are much more suitable (especially ffb because of the lowered mana costs via frost channeling.

@ethiery, the hodir fight is one specifically in which arcane falls behind the other specs.. since it relies on evocation as part of it's rotation, and, as you said, you can only safely evocate on top of the snow banks when he flash freezes the ground. if your evocation is still on cooldown and you run out of mana early (which WILL happen) then your damage is screwed until the next flash freeze. true, the longer cast times of fireball/frostfire may require a bit more fancy footwork on your part, but the lowered mana problems associated with fb or ffb specs, and the lack of NEEDING 3 stacks of a spell to make your dps competetive will make it edge out in the end.

Don't misunderstand.. I'm not saying that arcane is bad by any means... i'm just saying that with the mechanics of ulduar fights being what they are, they lean more towards fireball and frostfire specs, especially due to the higher amount of health bosses have.

Beitrag von 250116

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von 79146

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Achloryn

anyone says that mana consumption makes arcane bad for ulduar, simply doesnt know how to manage it correctly

so apparently the theorycrafters at elitist jerks don't know how to manage it correctly. the rawr theorycrafging program doesn't know how to run a simulation correctly. everything that points at t8.5 gear favoring fire/ttw and frostfire spec aren't doing it right.. does that sound about like what you're saying?

completely acceptible, yes.. optimal no.. you won't perform as well in ulduar with arcane as you will with fire or frostfire, just like you won't performa as well in any raid with frost as you will with the 3 main specs.. (but we've already had discussions about that more than enough times anyway)

Beitrag von 250116

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Achloryn

show me a frapps, of you on every boss fight in 25m ulduar and never once running out of mana as arcane, and i will never raid with my mage again.

edit: Dread, I WILL concede that raid makeup DOES indeed have a lot to do with your mana management but that is not something that can always be *managed*... for instance, if there's no shadow priest, or ret pally that's able to raid in your group, then you're not gonna have replenishment.. (i know there's another class that provides it, but it escapes me at the moment) Replenishment, as any person who raids and uses mana will tell you, is a huge boon to your overall mana management, but saying that it is "completely manageable" is bunk because not every guild has the perfect raid makeup every time and sometimes has to mish-mash things together.

Beitrag von Meggie

I've started Ulduar as arcane. It did 4500 dps and in my guild this is lackluster. However, this suffices to do normal boss modes.

Hard mode fights take more DPS. The odd haste buffs will deplete your mana pool long before the fight's over. Random AoE damage cuts Evocation. And Hodir does some crazy things with FFB crits.

Beitrag von 328079

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von 220531

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von 250116

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Beitrag von Achloryn

dread, i haven't done 25 man ulduar, only 10 mans. after looking at my gear earlier, my haste is around 400 unbuffed (so i think that's 14% before netherwind presence and iv and stuff like that). With raid buffs i'm sitting somewhere around 20-21k mana depending. i'm not sure what my mp5 while casting is, but i'm sure it's not 600, so yes i may be less geared than you, but you don't need 25 man ulduar gear to do 25 man ulduar.. that's counter productive. anyway i want to apologize for sounding like a jackass.. i was having a bad night.

as far as putting 25 mans together.. it's not that we're fail at putting 25 mans together, but we're not a huge guild with 500 people so we don't always have the pick of the litter to make the best choices we have for our groups. we have to go with what we have by who signs up, and who actually shows up when they say they will. We are heavy on casters and we have several priests, but most of them are needed to heal and the others are undergeared. most of our pallies are either tanks or healers.. i think we have two hunters and one of them is on at odd times. Besides, correct me if i'm wrong, isn't it only one spec of hunters that gives replenishment? (i could be wrong, i know very little about them)

Beitrag von Shaxe

Only Survival hunters do.

Arcane, FFB, and FB/TTW... oh my

Antwort verfassen