Avr getting removed next patch

发布者 Reeve

People confuse AVR and AVRE a lot. Nearly every thread debating AVRE legitimacy people castigate AVR instead. Hell, even the blue post does.

AVRE was the raiding augmentation addon, the one that should be removed. AVR is simply the library that lets you draw stuff on the map (e.g. markers). If a player manually draws markers using AVR without AVRE--what's the problem? It's no different than raid markers, a native UI feature.

I wrote VirtualPing, an AVR mod that will be broke in 3.3.5. I didn't care much for AVRE, I agreed it's too much automation--but VirtualPing was purely user-invoked and made it far easier to spot ping locations.

All said, removing only AVRE and not AVR is probably impossible--hence Blizzard's unfortunate decision.

p.s. I would laugh if removing AVRE caused collateral damage and broke other boss mods, such as BigWigs and DBM. That would make for interesting raiding.

发布者 xaratherus

发布者 MischievousLoki

If a player manually draws markers using AVR without AVRE--what's the problem? It's no different than raid markers, a native UI feature.

Raid markers are placed on mobs. To my knowledge, there's no UI-based method to mark particular areas or regions on the ground. I think that's why they have an issue with it.

Some fights are designed with the required movement as part of the challenge of the fight. For example, Heigan and the Safety Dance would have been no challenge at all with the ability to draw lines clearly denoting zone boundaries. There are creative ways to do so - we always used flares, for instance - but those had to be set by the players, each time the raid started, and were done within the game's controls.

It seems like what a lot of people are asking for is for blizzard to integrate this functionality, in some form, into the base UI like they've done with so many other mods.

Personally this is my first time hearing about the mod. It does sound like it'd be cool, as a raid leader, to be able to mark locations on the ground the same way I can mark PCs and NPCs, with the same sort of restrictions to keep them from being overused (only a certain number of marks and they're all different icons). Either that or they need to make flares a lot better. You mentioned them for the heigan fight. I remember using those for heigan but the problem was that they didn't last the whole fight and you couldn't throw them far enough. They also didn't last long and reapplying them mid-combat is annoying when you're already doing your job and whatever else the encounter requires at the same time.

My hope is that they'll make putting markers on the ground a guild ability in the future.

发布者 90137

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发布者 Meggie

I wonder how Blizzard is going to break it. It looks like it will affect everything connected to healthbar display.

发布者 Meggie

As for the downsides on the blizzard interface: they're all intended. You're free to defeat an encounter when blizzard allows you.

发布者 302110

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发布者 131290

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发布者 Reeve

It seems like what a lot of people are asking for is for blizzard to integrate this functionality, in some form, into the base UI like they've done with so many other mods.

Personally this is my first time hearing about the mod. It does sound like it'd be cool, as a raid leader, to be able to mark locations on the ground the same way I can mark PCs and NPCs, with the same sort of restrictions to keep them from being overused (only a certain number of marks and they're all different icons). Either that or they need to make flares a lot better. You mentioned them for the heigan fight. I remember using those for heigan but the problem was that they didn't last the whole fight and you couldn't throw them far enough. They also didn't last long and reapplying them mid-combat is annoying when you're already doing your job and whatever else the encounter requires at the same time.

My hope is that they'll make putting markers on the ground a guild ability in the future.

I'd settle for this. I hope Blizzard takes a page from AVR. I've wanted more augmented raid leader tools like AVR since raid markers were added in patch 1.11.

Simple guidelines for a native raid drawing utility that is only user-invoked and doesn't permanently change the 3D plane:

Ability to place makers on the ground, of varying sizes/colors/shapes/raid icons (red circles, green circles, triangles, skull, etc.).
Markers last forever out-of-combat.
In-combat markers last for 4 seconds after placement.
Only a fixed number of markers can exist on the map at any time (e.g. 6). Once you reach the cap every mark thereafter replaces the oldest one existing.
Raid leader and assists can place markers.
Markers are accessed through a pop-up menu by hitting some configurable key binding anywhere on the 3D plane, and the marker is placed at the cursor location.

I think shapes and icons are enough for raid drawing. Free drawing (e.g. paint brush) isn't necessary and opens the possibility for annoyance (i.e. giant dongs). All these functions would be protected, therefore 3rd party addons could not automate drawing (e.g. AVRE).

I dislike flares, they're cumbersome and not visible enough. If Blizzard added a new item that adds a big red circle on the ground, or if they dramatically change the graphic for flares, that might do instead. However flare type items can be used for grieving other players in-town, if they're too visible and distracting. Whereas a raid-drawing utility is only visible by the raid or player.

发布者 xaratherus

Who here can safely say they dont use DBM or the likes?

They are almost crucial

I use DBM - but there's a pretty big difference between being shown a raid warning that an event is occurring, and being shown the exact spot to which you need to move to avoid damage from that event.

I'm sort of glad that I never heard of AVR/E. I think I would feel the same way that lonewarrior did about it.

That being said, I would not mind being able to place a limited number of easily visible, static-shaped markers on the ground during a raid, as suggested by Loki and others.

发布者 303152

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发布者 Meggie

发布者 64330

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发布者 Reeve

I use DBM - but there's a pretty big difference between being shown a raid warning that an event is occurring, and being shown the exact spot to which you need to move to avoid damage from that event.

This answer was common on the WoW forums AVR sticky, and it's exaggerated.

BigWigs/DBM/etc. do tell you where you should be. They don't augment the 3D plane, but they tell you "RUN AWAY" or "GO TO XYZ PLAYER". They will tell you to be somewhere in X seconds. DXE will draw arrows to the location you should run to or away from--which to me is borderline AVRE; just look for the arrows and run. You don't need to know why, JUST DO IT! (read: Blizzard, make GetPlayerMapPosition protected while you're at it.)

BigWigs/DBM/AVRE/DXE timer bars and messages share the same goal: they give you information, and what you do with that information is up to you. AVRE draws circles for you of where you should go, but it doesn't automatically move you to or from that location. You must still WASD.

I'm not backing any of these addons. If it was up to me, I would not have bosses send combat events. Bam--no more boss mods. But that's just me, an avid RPG fan since Baldur's Gate. WoW is the only RPG that features the capability of these silly boss timers.

发布者 xaratherus

So far endgame raiding has a degree of mindlessness. It was in vanilla, in TBC and now in WotLK. DPS defaults to 2 button classes, healing defaults to 1 button classes. And tanking a for a heroic instance PUG adds more challenge than tanking the Lich King.

Have a look at the Lucifron fight in good old Molten Core. It's a cleanse fest and once you've done it the charm is gone. Blizzard's solution was to make cleansing more complicated. Now the fight is boring AND you got to click your wrist lame.

This mod allows for changes. A fight as "hard" as Sindrigosa could be entrance level raiding in Cataclysm. But instead the mod is getting bashed and we probably will face just another cleanse fest.

Let me ask this: If AVRE were allowed to continue, what changes would you suggest that would make raiding more exciting or challenging?

I fail to see how "this mod allows for changes". To my eyes, the mod actually removes the necessity of any sort of raid awareness based on the actual environment, instead replacing it with a kindergarten-level awareness of, "When X happens, I need to run to the red patch on the ground." Part of the challenge of the fight is supposed to be to learn where to stand, and when, and how to recognize when you're safe.

As for the fights being mindless, have you taken a look at the numbers of people who have downed various bosses in Lich King? There's a blog on the. Out of the millions of players, there have only been (I think - have to look at the graph again) 15k LK kills.

发布者 Meggie

The next step can be: when you are dipped with goo X you need to dip goo Y within a set amount of time. What is not necessarily harder than using a hot streak proc, but a change and an addition I'd appreciate.

The current encounters are like 'Don't stand in the fire'. And despite all mods, macros and proc watches people will die in said fire, won't dps bone spikes and will forget to bite the next player.

This is why 25 man loot is (was?) better. But maybe Cataclysm will be all about don't stand in the fire.

发布者 ChairmanKaga

But i'm all for the addons, because the default blizzard ui... well it sucks for me.

Fixed.

Actually -- and I can speak authoritatively here because I design software user interfaces for a living -- the Blizzard UI is exactly what you want to get new people into the game. It is simplistic and minimal, doesn't overwhelm the user with information, and is functional without any customization (other than dropping your skills onto your action bar). All essential functions (and even some non-essential ones) are accessible in one or two clicks.

Complex interfaces, like the ones power users build, tend to alienate and confuse initiates. But simple interfaces don't expose what the power users need, which is why it's very nice that Blizzard has granted us the ability to completely alter the interface with addons. It's how they cater to both crowds.

The default UI is always going to be something that the casual player can use and still be reasonably effective. That is Blizzard's overall business model -- they cater to the power users with challenging top-end raids, but the core of the game will always be approachable and fun to the most casual of gamers. That is why WoW crushes every other player in the MMO market -- because they've figured out how to effectively play both ends of the spectrum.

I wonder how Blizzard is going to break it.

Almost certainly by removing the functions to allow the addon to derive the camera position. Without that, it doesn't know how to properly overlay the marks onto the viewport.

I'd settle for this. I hope Blizzard takes a page from AVR. I've wanted more augmented raid leader tools like AVR since raid markers were added in patch 1.11.

Personally I would like to see something similar from Blizzard, but if we do, it's going to be on their terms (which is why they are breaking AVR). I think Blizzard's main issue is with AVRE, the in-combat aspect of it and how it trivializes the encounters. I feel like they could provide a similar tool (for setting up raid explanations) that shuts off once combat begins.

发布者 pelf

I wonder how Blizzard is going to break it.

Almost certainly by removing the functions to allow the addon to derive the camera position. Without that, it doesn't know how to properly overlay the marks onto the viewport.

This is correct. They're removing the API to query camera pitch, distance and direction. I assume this thread got moved here from another forum?

发布者 HoleofArt

Honestly, you can't use Blizzard's orginal UI for raiding. Some mods are too crucial to "not use them" when raiding.
You either aren't raiding anything difficult, or only play a dps class that has 3 buttons so there's not much for you to do anyways.

The only reason I'm defending AVRE, is because the range circle it placed around you for some fights was amazing, and was no different then putting down a flare, or using raid icons, or whatever which obviously is A-OK with Blizzard, as people have been doing it forever.

Also, those of you who have never used it, honestly, can't say much on this. The way it's described doesn't say much, and unless you've truly seen it used on those intense fights, your opinion is nill.

发布者 Krow

Now, this just makes me the happiest little $%^&, that I get to prove my gm/raidlead wrong. This addon is for the stupid, plain and simple. It just dumbs down "run from this" a little bit more, which I find completely irritating.

Of course, I switched from Unholy to DW Frost because I like a challenge, so what do I know?

Avr getting removed next patch

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