Why Deforestation isn't a nerf

Сообщение от 404185

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Сообщение от curlymon

Naw the reasoning behind keeping Treeform and just doing a % reduction to damage while in form is to give them a tool to re-balance later on when scaling considerations come into effect in later tiers in Cata. Easy to change a single number then re-balancing a ton of dps spells possibly reducing PvE effectiveness of Boomkins in the process.

Сообщение от 109094

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Сообщение от 404185

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Сообщение от skribs

Other classes have zero loss to effectiveness in their primary role while doing a separate role.

^ This is the core of his argument. Why do we have this loss? What significant gains to we have that offset this loss?
Resto is in the exact same boat, even though it has a different main role it still falls under the "can't do a secondary role with out a significan't loss to their primary role's effectiveness"

The problem is that you're not looking at other healing classes, you're looking at DPS classes. In order to look at what a form should have, you look at what do the other people in that role have. So bear gets the things that all 4 of the other tanking specs (prot, prot, blood, frost) have in terms of general mechanics. They don't have parry, but they have high avoidance, armor, health, ways to generate threat, cooldowns, etc.
Kitty gets the same things rogues, warriors, DKs, ret paladins, enhance shamans all share in common. They've got weak raid CC but powerful solo/pvp CC, single target and AoE DPS rotations, and so on. They have added benefits, especially by leaving form, but in form they can do the same general things that rogues/warriors/dks can do.
Balance gets the same things that all other casters get. Ele is a bit off on its own with its hybridity, but then again ele meets the minimum for the other casters, too.
So then why is Resto the only healer to miss out on 2 very big things in form?

See, you can't say "moonkin can't heal," because neither can hunters, mages, warlocks, or shadow priests. Similarly, when we say "tree can't DPS or CC", that's in comparison with all other healers, who can. Comparing boomkin to tree is like comparing chess to checkers. Comparing tree to the other healers is like comparing rooks to queens.

Сообщение от razzem

This is a good summation.

Can a Disc priest still fear and maintain the same amount of healing power? Yip.

Can a Resto druid still roots or cyclone and still maintain the same amount of healing power? Nope.

This change to the resto tree will fix that. A 10% healing loss to be able to use CC capabilities is a substantial amount.

Сообщение от curlymon

The problem is that you're not looking at other healing classes, you're looking at DPS classes.

See, you can't say "moonkin can't heal," because neither can hunters, mages, warlocks, or shadow priests. Similarly, when we say "tree can't DPS or CC", that's in comparison with all other healers, who can. Comparing boomkin to tree is like comparing chess to checkers. Comparing tree to the other healers is like comparing rooks to queens.

I'm using Boomkin as an example. My summation can be compared against any spec or class, you are just mentally stuck on the can/can't heal thought process.

Edit: Straw man is a misplaced argument if you actually read what you quoted of mine. Tanks can even fall into that category, you just don't see them as a 'tank' in PvP. It even applies to Mages and Locks who have no heals of their own. Think about it.

A Mage can dps quite well in PvP. They can also CC and return to dps with little to no impact on their primary role.

A warlock can dps quite well in PvP. They can also CC and return to dps with little to no impact on their primary role.

A Hunter can dps quite well in PvP. They can also CC and return to dps with little to no impact on their primary role.

A Rouge can dps or lock down quite well in PvP. While neither is a primary role over the other they can switch easily.

An Ele sham can dps quite well in PvP. They can CC or Heal with little to no impact to their primary role.

A Resto Sham can heal quite well in PvP. They can dps or CC with little to no impact on their primary role.

A Disc priest can heal quite well in PvP. They can also CC and provide a small amount of burst with little to no impact on their primary role.

A SPriest can dps quite well in PvP. They can CC but they cannot drop to heal without an impact to their Primary role.

A boomkin can dps quite well in PvP. They can CC but cannot drop out to heal without an impact to their primary role.

A resto druid can heal quite well in PvP. They cannot CC or DPS with out an impact to their primary role.

So:

Other classes have zero loss to effectiveness in their primary role while doing a separate role.

Is still a valid argument. I'm not talking about heals vs dps, dps vs heals, tank vs heals or any other permutation you can think about... I'm talking about Primary vs Secondary roles. It is a simple way to compare the flexibility of the class in a PvP situation.

___________

Thank you curlymon, you summed up my points waaaaay better than I could.

Eh, sometimes it just takes someone fresh into the debate to make a summary :P

Сообщение от curlymon

You could, if you want to, just as easily manage this by adding damage to Moonkin and Cat forms (perhaps even by just tweaking Master Shapeshifter).

And in your scenario, there's still absolutely no reason to have Tree form at all in the first place.

The object is not to buff boomkin to maintain a weak resto. it is to have a strong boomkin and adjust resto away from that to an appropriate level.

In my senario tree form stays as it is for 2 reasons.

Avoid the QQ from posters and get them focused on the actual changes being made.
To allow the use of that dmg reduction as a balancing mechanic.

Edit: And for those who want to see their armor? lets spin that minor glyph on it's head... Why not have the tree form glyph remove the tree form visibility?

Сообщение от 579986

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Сообщение от curlymon

It's valid, but I'd argue that getting rid of tree is more valid because it's only one class that's having the problem. Say you enable all spells in tree form. That means druids can heal/cc/dps in 2 forms...

You are slightly off. If all spell were enabled for tree then only 1 form could dps/cc/heal in one, that would be tree.

Also my point is valid for Boomkins, Restos and Spriests. All for the same reasons.

Сообщение от 579986

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Сообщение от 404185

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Сообщение от curlymon

Avoid the QQ from posters and get them focused on the actual changes being made.

This is almost always a bad reason to make one design decision over another. Largely due to Baby Duck Syndrome.

Yet is addresses both the player bases general opinion and allows them to achieve what they wanted as a design goal. It was something off the top of the head and I never intended to actually defend it. More of point out that there are different ways to look at it to solve the same problem.

If a class/spec loses a large player base Blizz has been shown to actually buff or enliven a class/spec to make it more appealing. This results in FotM more often then not but it does even out the player base and honestly it allows an under appreciated class to be revived. This is a distant future view looking from things as if resto druid was to lose a large player base and is largely hypothetical. no reason not to look into how this would affect things in the future and not just in the short term. So intended as a longer term argument rather then addressing baby duck syndrome. :P

It's valid, but I'd argue that getting rid of tree is more valid because it's only one class that's having the problem. Say you enable all spells in tree form. That means druids can heal/cc/dps in 2 forms...

You are slightly off. If all spell were enabled for tree then only 1 form could dps/cc/heal in one, that would be tree.

Also my point is valid for Boomkins, Restos and Spriests. All for the same reasons.

Um, I was counting DRUID FORM.

And shifting this discussion to PvP is a nonstarter. Tree isn't gonna be saved because of PvP.

Short of pointing out that you read my posts wrong and need to reevaluate your argument I'm not sure if I really need to defend myself to you, lol. However I will address you none the less.

CASTER is not a form... it's the base line. So... nope just 1 form. Meh semantics.

As for shifting this to PvP it was never shifted just clarified. Last time I checked PvP was half of the game so it's a perfectly valid point to bring up. The core of the debate falls on the PvP side of the changes not the PvE which is why my posts have been directed in that manner(i.e. PvE is an aesthetics change, while PvP is a large mechanics change).

The changes proposed and looked at by my argument actually say that the changes are a good thing. The tree form should be adjusted... assuming they keep their standard "can't cast x type of spells in form" mechanic. The other side of the argument is "why keep the spell restrictions mechanic".

P.S.- Since it has been muddled in the posts. I am debating the point that Para brought up about a consistency between spec/classes. I personally don't care if tree is saved or not. Just pointing out that Para has a very reasonable argument... People don't have to stand on the 'red side' to debate the 'red's point of view'.

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Сообщение от 109094

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Сообщение от TheJohan

The Tree does not suffer in any way shape or form in pve.

I respectfully disagree. For example in Lady Deathwisper fight, CC is very important. Even tho some dps are fully capable of the CC, sometimes they just dont react fast enough.. There are also times in heroics when the tank looses a mob, when you need to drop out of treeform to throw a quick cyclone.

To use all your utility, you need to drop out of treeform, wich is mildly annoying. I can cope with it, but to say that tree does not suffer at all in pve is.. well, wrong. Atleast if you ask me.

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Сообщение от curlymon

Once again you've just ignored the meat of my post in favor of semantics. Well done.

The other side of the argument is "why keep the spell restrictions mechanic".

So when I ask pertinent questions about that side, you choose to sidestep and just talk some more about PvP.

I assumed they were either rhetorical or to make your own point since you went ahead and answered them for me. Also... not sure how you intended them to apply to the argument of Primary vs Secondary roles...

If I had to set my stance on this subject in stone it would be this:

I want to see resto get greater flexibility within the PvP environment through the ability to CC and provide a mild boost to overall DPS without a significant loss to their effectiveness in their primary role as a healer.
I would like to see a similar consideration made towards Balance Druids and Shadow Priests even if it ends up being a flat reduction to our ability to heal.

Neither of these requires that tree form be removed from 100% up time and turned into a CD. I have suggested at least one method to keep it aesthetically the same and allow the changes to go forth.

Сообщение от TheJohan

sometimes they just dont react fast enough..

to be blunt, thats more a failing of the other players if the healer is called upon to cc in an emergency.
Not to mention solely part of a gimmick fight. Many classes/specs are less-than-ideal in other gimmick fights in the game

I totally agree, im just saying that tree form gimps us in PvE aswell as PvP.

Lots of times we 'good players' are forced to adapt to situations beyond our control (the failing of others), and sometimes, to save the day, we have to drop out of treeform to do it. :)

Сообщение от Drakaina

To be completly honest the class changes announced so far have all been IDEAS and even the ones that have been confirmed may not necessarily become what you think they will

Lets face it... This IS Blizzard we're talking about :P

And until Cata is released none of us know exactly what will be in the end product so why winge about it if you don't know for sure?

P.S. I want ToL to stay :(

Why Deforestation isn't a nerf

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