The The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm Discussion Thread (Spoilers Abound)

Сообщение от taurenmoo812

A duel to the death, that Garrosh thought he won fairly. He was saddened by being forced to kill Cairne, but the old Bull agreed to the rules; had Garrosh broke down and blubbered like a baby, he would have thought dishonouring the memory of Cairne. And while he didn't help take the city...he also sent a hilarious letter to the Old Crone, and it's now obvious where the 'GET. OFF. MY. SHIP!' came from.

Point still rests. Months ago I remember an argument over Garrosh's lack of honor and someone highlighted the points I mentioned, claiming he did help Baine take but thunderbluff and he did run from Cairne fallen body. None of which happened.
And Garrosh saw Cairne as nothing more then another opponent opposed to him, nowhere did I find he showing any remorse of him winning that match, because as someone else said, glory and winning was the only thing that mattered to him, even when facing a leader more noble then he was.

Сообщение от 306612

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Сообщение от taurenmoo812

A duel to the death, that Garrosh thought he won fairly. He was saddened by being forced to kill Cairne, but the old Bull agreed to the rules; had Garrosh broke down and blubbered like a baby, he would have thought dishonouring the memory of Cairne. And while he didn't help take the city...he also sent a hilarious letter to the Old Crone, and it's now obvious where the 'GET. OFF. MY. SHIP!' came from.

Point still rests. Months ago I remember an argument over Garrosh's lack of honor and someone highlighted the points I mentioned, claiming he did help Baine take but thunderbluff and he did run from Cairne fallen body. None of which happened.

'cause we didn't know about it at the time. One of those missing points of lore that can happen.

Fair enough. But gotta say, whoever said my view on Garrosh would change with this book, as I was half expecting what to read there, what it actully did was just instill my resentment for him more, well also making me find characters like Baine and Anduin far more developed.

Сообщение от Adamsm

Сообщение от taurenmoo812

Fine, you still hate him, so let it drop now.

And Garrosh saw Cairne as nothing more then another opponent opposed to him, nowhere did I find he showing any remorse of him winning that match, because as someone else said, glory and winning was the only thing that mattered to him, even when facing a leader more noble then he was.

Who challenged him; you keep seeming to gloss over that point; Cairne called for the duel, not Garrosh; in fact, the 'ragehead' was willing to let it pass, and not force the issue. Again; as far as Garrosh knew, he had won fairly; and reacted as he always did for a win. If you were expecting him to go emo about it...well, actually, you probably were.

You gloss over it too. Cairne did challange him to the duel yes, he did it for what he saw as the right thing for the horde to stop it becoming like it once was. But it was Garrosh who made the duel into a death match. The duel under Thrall's law was changed to not kill the opponent, Garrosh changed the rule back to the old ways, and Cairne would not back away from it, because he knew he had to stop Garrosh before it got worse.

Сообщение от Adamsm

You gloss over it too. Cairne did challange him to the duel yes, he did it for what he saw as the right thing for the horde to stop it becoming like it once was. But it was Garrosh who made the duel into a death match. The duel under Thrall's law was changed to not kill the opponent, Garrosh changed the rule back to the old ways, and Cairne would not back away from it, because he knew he had to stop Garrosh before it got worse.

And? So Cairne was willing to die for the Horde, Garrosh was willing to die for his honour; both of them knew what the stakes were, and both accepted the consequences. It was only due to treachery that Cairne died the way he did; yes Garrosh was angry about it; as he would never have a chance to prove that he could have possibly beat Cairne on his own, and that stain would hang over him for the rest of his life, tarnishing his honour; say what you will about the son of Grom; he's a true orc son, believing in the ways of his people, and wanting nothing more then to keep them safe and strong, and not weak.

Hell, Golden even had Thrall admit in the book, during his time in Nagrand, that the way he grew up on Azeroth kept him from missing a lot of things of his people's past...which goes with something I've been saying about Garrosh; the son of Grom was raised with the old ways, which is what he is trying to bring into the Horde; not the Dark Horde ways, but the ways of the Orcs from before the corruption. Hell, the tradition he called on to face off against Cairne came from that time.

Like I said above; doesn't matter what Garrosh did/did not do; wouldn't make you happy in any way shape or form, as you have your hatred of him.

Сообщение от taurenmoo812

I think you suger coat Garrosh's actions now. Trying to bring the old ways back to the horde? Seriously? So the orcs in the past lived in black metal buildings and winning victory over someone regardless of if thre friend or foe matters more then anything else?

You forget one thing here. Garrosh IS Groms son. Grom was no saint, far from it, he was violent, lusting for victory and glory over anyone in his way, and the main reason the orcs first drank the demons blood, showing the results to the other orcs back then.

Thrall brought back the old ways and the best the orcs had to them before they were corrupted, but he also kept the horde spirit without it becoming another act sating bloodlust. Garrosh, who was raised in nagrand, had brought that same bloodlust back into the horde, that notion of revealing in self glory, and without any explanation, showing the same kind of rage his father did.
Vol'jin said it right, he's even more like Grom then grom himself.

The only thing Garrosh is doing is trying to emulate his father now, that matters more to him then if the horde becomes a bloodthusrty warlike horde again.

Сообщение от 355559

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Сообщение от taurenmoo812

He's not going to make it bloodthirsty, warmongering, perhaps, but not butchers again. Thats the whole point of the ship event.

Bloodthursty was just an overstatement for violent and a want for killing with sharp weapons and hacking at things, mainly, the alliance they want to kill.

You see, the biggest problem with the orcs, if you look over all the hordes history, is when the horde sets out on a path of war and killing, they end up shattering any form of honor they held, and leading them to ultimate ruin, which is what they did. The old horde was basicly an out of control locomotive that was set to crash, which it did.
And now the story seems to be shifting into the premise of history repeating itself with war hungry orcs leading it, nevermind it was ment to be a redeemed horde after all this.

The orcs have always been on the edge between pure savage / noble savage

Сообщение от 355559

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Сообщение от Adamsm

Сообщение от taurenmoo812

and the main reason the orcs first drank the demons blood, showing the results to the other orcs back then. .......Da hell? I mean really; so apparently, Gul'dan and KJ didn't manipulate the orcs eh? It was all Grom? /shake head

Another example of someone overstating the obvious, but if anyone was gonna I knew it be you.

Gul'dan offered it, kil'jaeden caused it, but it was Grom who first drank it, and without hesitation, he took it, even forced himself before blackhand to drink it. To Grom then, power was all that mattered, and the offer of more strength and power was all he cared for then.
When the other orcs saw the kind of power it gave him, they fell in line and took up the cup too, to all but Durotan, the other orcs had no question they would become powerful from it.

Theres a reason Thrall stated the orcs curse begun and ended with grom.

Сообщение от Rankkor

Gul'dan offered it, kil'jaeden caused it, but it was Grom who first drank it, and without hesitation, he took it, even forced himself before blackhand to drink it

so what? if he hand't some other poor chump would have.

what matters is who set it all in motion wich was kil'jaeden.

had gul'dan refused, it would had still happened, as another corrupt orc would had set things in motion, and had grom not be the first to drink someone else would had.

since 90% of the orcs drank it, it really doesn't matter who drank first, but who refused to drink at all.

going by real-life examples (and no, I'm not using hitler as an example, give that poor son of a b1tch a break) Hugo Chavez was the one who set in motion the coup against Carlos Andres Perez back in 1992, wich caused thousands of civilian deaths, fire-fights across the entire nation, martial law, curfews and all of the rest that followed.

When chavez issued the call to rebel against the former-president Carlos Andres Perez, it was General Gilberto Acosta who first joined forces with him, taking a large chunk of our army with him to fight the soldiers in the presidential palace.

that being said, just because Gilberto was the first to answer to chavez's call, does it means we have to pin everything that happened on his lap? hell no, it's the mastermind who set the rest in motion, everyone else were just chess pieces on the board, and if Gilberto hadn't accepted Chavez's offer, some other bastard would have.

What did mattered were the people who eventually ended the conflict by removing Perez from the office. but that's another story :P

Сообщение от FarseerLolotea

Y'all know Gul'dan was a willing collaborator with KJ, right?

Сообщение от Adamsm

Y'all know Gul'dan was a willing collaborator with KJ, right?

Yes, but because it possibly make Grom(who Tauren at one point used to defend) be seen in a not evil light, he has to ignore it.

Сообщение от taurenmoo812

Y'all know Gul'dan was a willing collaborator with KJ, right?

Yes, but because it possibly make Grom(who Tauren at one point used to defend) be seen in a not evil light, he has to ignore it.

Grom was as much a tool of Gul'dans as Gul'dan was a tool of KJ. Whatever orc wanted to drink the blood was as much as fault as Grom, but he took the offer without question, being the reckless thing Hellscream was.

Сообщение от Adamsm

Сообщение от 229054

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Сообщение от FarseerLolotea

Grom wasn't evil. However, he wasn't precisely good (although he died doing something heroic), either. Nor was he any too sharp or any too stable.

In D&D terms, he was chaotic neutral and had wisdom as his dump stat. Typical fighter/barbarian.

Сообщение от 306612

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The The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm Discussion Thread (Spoilers Abound)

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