Sylvanas being 'evil'

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Сообщение от 229054

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Сообщение от 451455

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Сообщение от 229054

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Сообщение от Adamsm

Sticks with Anasterian who tells the humans to f*ck themselves = Not a hero of the Alliance.The biggest problem with a comment like that? There's been several Alliances over the past 30 years.....

First War; no Alliance just the Humans of Stormwind

2nd War; the Grand Alliance(best alliance in my view)

3rd War: The Alliance of the Humans/Orcs/Night Elves

WoW: The current Alliance

Edit: And each of those have certain heroes.

Сообщение от Skreeran

Of course.

Saying Sylvanas was no better than a footman to the Alliance is saying that the High Elf race was no better than a footman to the Alliance. They were under her, because she was general.

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Сообщение от Adamsm

Yeaaaaah, it seems that everyone feels like she did all of this by herself, and without anyone's help, not even Anastarian's. And also Sylvanas should be some sort of huge war veteren hero for saving the entire northern Eastern Kingdoms by herself.

^Not the case at all.
She did nothing to be considered a hero of the Alliance, or Second war. We've told you before about putting words in our mouth Dark; Sylvanas, as the Ranger-General of her people, protected the Homelands while her younger sister was out with the forces they sent to assist the Alliance. However, as the Ranger-General, Sylvanas was the high ranking military member of the High Elf forces, and as we've said; Lordaeron and the Alliance didn't send help to Quel'thas to help clear out what was left of the Trolls and the Orcs working with them, so they would have fought against them by themselves.

This goes back to something stated before in another thread:

You might not see her as a Hero, but I'm betting the people of the Quel'thas did, as she was the overall military leader of her people.

Сообщение от HiVolt

Wow, looks like I missed quite a discussion on the necessity of Quel'thalas in the Second War... /cry

Also, yes, I do not like the Forsaken. I don't mind going against them, but I also love the Orcs, and I don't mind going against them either. Remember how I said that Thrall needs to be held accountable for the Wrathgate along with Sylvanas? I love the Horde, but I will go against them if I feel it's necessary that something be said, the same goes with the Alliance. I like most of the races, minus the Forsaken and all of the Elves.

Meh, elves, /yawn /snore.

Сообщение от 229054

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Сообщение от HiVolt

I like most of the races, minus the Forsaken and all of the Elves.

Meh, elves, /yawn /snore.

Not even me? I'm a high elf D= (IC)

It doesn't make your Tolkien race any less boring :P

Сообщение от 229054

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Сообщение от taurenmoo812

Remember how I said that Thrall needs to be held accountable for the Wrathgate along with Sylvanas?

I really don't want this to trail off into an off topic debate here, but I'll just state my thought on this. Its wrong and really only Sylvanas should be held accountable for it. It be the same as saying Varian should be held accountable for his forces dying at the wrath gate just for him sending them there, but thats just as ridiculous.

We've told you before about putting words in our mouth Dark; Sylvanas, as the Ranger-General of her people, protected the Homelands while her younger sister was out with the forces they sent to assist the Alliance. However, as the Ranger-General, Sylvanas was the high ranking military member of the High Elf forces, and as we've said; Lordaeron and the Alliance didn't send help to Quel'thas to help clear out what was left of the Trolls and the Orcs working with them, so they would have fought against them by themselves.

This goes back to something stated before in another thread:

You might not see her as a Hero, but I'm betting the people of the Quel'thas did, as she was the overall military leader of her people.

Its hardly surprising Dark tries to turn things in his favour, along with side stepping questions put to him. And yes, The reason Sylvanas, even as an undead still holds love for her homeland but hatred for the alliance is, and I take some great joy in saying this, just as justified as Varians hatred for the orcs by comparison, since the human alliance failed to assist the elves then, and the next time she sees humans, its as the depraved scarlet crusade. I really didn't want to pull the Varian card, but her reason for hating humans is just as justifed as Varians against the orcs.

Сообщение от HiVolt

Well... our elves aren't exactly like tolkien's...

Light skinned, mainly of light-colored hair, live mainly in forested areas, wary of outsiders, gifted in archery, in tune with nature, gifted with magic, over-exaggerated beauty, smaller in stature than humans... need I go on? To me, the most acceptable elves are the Night Elves, but even they have plenty of those classical elven qualities. I like that they're not carbon copies, but those similarities are enough to turn me off to them. Give me elves that are not all pretty, that don't live in forests, that aren't naturally gifted with archery or magic, or in tune with nature... and I'll like them much more.

I know that the Dwarves are also similar to Tolkien's, but I like them more for some reason... I'm not really sure why.

But, this is totally off-topic, I shall stop derailing now.

Сообщение от HiVolt

Сообщение от 229054

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Сообщение от taurenmoo812

No, with the Horde it's different. The Warchief commands supreme power, so it is up to him to keep those under him in check. For not keeping an eye the goings-on of the Forsaken, he failed in his duty. The Warchief, as the supreme leader of the Horde, must know what is going on with all of the factions, not just his own.

We don't even know if he knew about the Blight. My guess is that he didn't, and if he had known about it, could have nipped this whole thing in the bud in the beginning.

And the part where Thrall gave trust to Sylvanas enough to lead her own people, for whatever designs she had. Yes, he didn't check what they were doing in undercity before, based on that level of trust he gave her, but the events of the wrath gate showed him taking action in correcting that. He doesn't need to be held accountable for being betrayed, since he isn't omnipotent.

The system might work differently in terms of leadership between the horde and alliance (although Varian seems to thinks he is the defacto leader of them now) but when the allies of one side does something, that doesn't make all others accountable. Lets just imagine for a second here, that in cataclysm, Greymane and the worgen does something similar to what the forsakeb RAS did.. should then Varian, who claims himself the leader of the alliance, be held accountable?

Сообщение от HiVolt

smaller in stature than humans... need I go on?

Umm... we're taller. At least we're "more human" than the tolkien elves?

No, with the Horde it's different. The Warchief commands supreme power, so it is up to him to keep those under him in check. For not keeping an eye the goings-on of the Forsaken, he failed in his duty. The Warchief, as the supreme leader of the Horde, must know what is going on with all of the factions, not just his own.

We don't even know if he knew about the Blight. My guess is that he didn't, and if he had known about it, could have nipped this whole thing in the bud in the beginning.

I agree. However, the Blight being a secret is a contradiction IMO:

First: This was certainly not a well kept secret, not even lorewise. Specially in Northrend.

Second: If it actually isn't a secret, the shamanistic Horde would go nerdrage. However, they also didn't with the Naaru and the Blood Knight incident, so its also in the line.

But in Horde Shamanism, they don't recognize the Light or the Naaru. In the case of the Blood Elves, it was a matter of survival, also. The Blight on the other hand is a weapon that kills everything it touches, that alone is enough to put restrictions on it at the very least. If Thrall did know about the Blight, he should have placed the use of it under the control of the Kor'kron.

And the part where Thrall gave trust to Sylvanas enough to lead her own people, for whatever designs she had. Yes, he didn't check what they were doing in undercity before, based on that level of trust he gave her, but the events of the wrath gate showed him taking action in correcting that. He doesn't need to be held accountable for being betrayed, since he isn't omnipotent.

The system might work differently in terms of leadership between the horde and alliance (although Varian seems to thinks he is the defacto leader of them now) but when the allies of one side does something, that doesn't make all others accountable. Lets just imagine for a second here, that in cataclysm, Greymane and the worgen does something similar to what the forsakeb RAS did.. should then Varian, who claims himself the leader of the alliance, be held accountable? Yes, he is showing signs of correcting the mistake he made, but, that does not mean he is not responsible as the supreme leader of the Horde. Ignorance is not a defense. If he did not know of the Blight, it was his own fault. He doesn't have to be omniscient to realize a threat when it's staring him in the face.

Сообщение от taurenmoo812

But in Horde Shamanism, they don't recognize the Light or the Naaru. In the case of the Blood Elves, it was a matter of survival, also. The Blight on the other hand is a weapon that kills everything it touches, that alone is enough to put restrictions on it at the very least. If Thrall did know about the Blight, he should have placed the use of it under the control of the Kor'kron.

Actully Saurfang was the commander of the Kor'kron in northrend.