Spark of Hope trinket? Was i right?

Сообщение от leoman

Ok so we were doing Ulduar last night and the http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45703 spark of hope dropped. the priest already had it, so the shammy rolled. I told him that there was much better trinkets out there for them, and that the spirit was a wasted stat. The guy has naxx trinkets on them. Was I right? coz i got an earbashing for it!

Thanks

Сообщение от 242837

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Avandare

Сообщение от Mesoforte

Seriously, I cannot remember when the last time was that I had mana issues as resto. There are so many trinkets out there that perform a better job than this. With the nerfs to spirit I doubt even priests and druids would equip it nowadays.

If somebody does some sims or something on it and it proves to be worth it I'll retract this but by the looks of it it's a terrible piece for current game mechanics.

The benefit depends on how much you cast, so math is all you need.

5 casts in 5 seconds=210 mp5
2 casts in 5 seconds=84 mp5
3 casts in 5 seconds=126 mp5
4 casts in 5 seconds=168 mp5

The mp5 benefit depends on how often you cast, but it can beat naxx trinkets.

If you need the reason it grants multiplicative mp5, read the tooltip-

Spark of Hope

Excluding the sp benefit, it can even beat Show of Faith for regen purposes if you make the 5/5 seconds. And so long as its constant casting, it will beat the proc even at a lower rate.

Сообщение от Avandare

The mp5 benefit depends on how often you cast, but it can beat naxx trinkets.

Since you brought up the topic, let's consider shaman spells before heroism / bloodlust:

CH: 2.5s cast and roughly 2.1-2.2s hasted in you average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear
Riptide: Instant cast with a GCD
LHW: 1.5s and roughly 1.2s hasted in your average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear
HW: 2.5s cast and roughly 2.1-2.2s hasted in your average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear

Let's say you lose 1s over a 5s period to latency / clicking / movement / etc. On average you'll get 1 x RT and 1 x CH off in every 5s period meaning the trinket will grant you 84 mp5. Also, this mana regen is if you're granted the full 42 cost reduction per spell and if you read the comments posted with the trinket itself you'll note that the discount is subtracted before you get any talented mana reduction meaning you'll get less effect from the trinket than the advertised 42 cost reduction. Let's say it rounds out to roughly 95 mp5 because most resto shammies will throw in a LHW in there somewhere.

I think I'll stand by my earlier assessment and pass on this trinket. Mana is simply not a big enough issue in 25-man raids at this stage of proceedings.

TLDR; The mana regen on the trinket is not worth the sacrifice in the potential you can gain from another similar quality, or even Naxx25 quality trinkets for resto shammies. We simply don't have enough short casts and our bread and butter (CH) is a 2.5s cast.

One huge ommission I neglected to mention is that the trinket will grant you next to nothing (100 spi) while you're not casting.

Сообщение от Tenshigure

As mentioned, pass on the trinket. It's more of a Resto Druid or Holy Pally type of item, and since Spirit is basically worthless for you otherwise, in this case you were in the right. Sure, it may help out temporarily for the guy on mana efficiency, but if it honestly improves his build THAT much...well, he's doing something wrong with his casting or severely lacks MP5.

Сообщение от 219211

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Сообщение от 66520

It is a niche trinket for every healer, and despite its spirit it is not useless for a shaman, or even a paladin.

Your story makes it sound like the shaman was the only one who wanted the trinket, so on that basis yeah, you were wrong.

Сообщение от Mesoforte

The mp5 benefit depends on how often you cast, but it can beat naxx trinkets.

Since you brought up the topic, let's consider shaman spells before heroism / bloodlust:

CH: 2.5s cast and roughly 2.1-2.2s hasted in you average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear
Riptide: Instant cast with a GCD
LHW: 1.5s and roughly 1.2s hasted in your average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear
HW: 2.5s cast and roughly 2.1-2.2s hasted in your average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear

Let's say you lose 1s over a 5s period to latency / clicking / movement / etc. On average you'll get 1 x RT and 1 x CH off in every 5s period meaning the trinket will grant you 84 mp5. Also, this mana regen is if you're granted the full 42 cost reduction per spell and if you read the comments posted with the trinket itself you'll note that the discount is subtracted before you get any talented mana reduction meaning you'll get less effect from the trinket than the advertised 42 cost reduction. Let's say it rounds out to roughly 95 mp5 because most resto shammies will throw in a LHW in there somewhere.

I think I'll stand by my earlier assessment and pass on this trinket. Mana is simply not a big enough issue in 25-man raids at this stage of proceedings.

TLDR; The mana regen on the trinket is not worth the sacrifice in the potential you can gain from another similar quality, or even Naxx25 quality trinkets for resto shammies. We simply don't have enough short casts and our bread and butter (CH) is a 2.5s cast.

One huge ommission I neglected to mention is that the trinket will grant you next to nothing (100 spi) while you're not casting.

Thank you for missing what I said and merely assuming that I wrote "you should get this trinket."

L2R properly. I made the message stand out so you can read it better. :o

Before I forget, The bold words in the quote...I can't remember how long its been since chain heal has been the main spell I had to cast. There have been quite a few changes since tbc, and a lot of it involves heal style. Full riptide hasted lhw heal style would see a large benefit from it, as its only inhibited by the Global cooldown. So, its possible to get 3-4 casts that benefit from the trinket.

Сообщение от 383597

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Tenshigure

I think that shamans dont have enough instant casts or casts close to 1-1.5 sec to make this trink worthwhile honestly.

Exactly. If you need to buff yourself to reduce the time to cast within the GCD, it's unreliable and not worth it.

Сообщение от Mesoforte

Riptide: Instant cast with a GCD
LHW: 1.5s and roughly 1.2s hasted in your average Naxx25 / Uld25 gear

I think that shamans dont have enough instant casts or casts close to 1-1.5 sec to make this trink worthwhile honestly.

I'm not saying its the best trinket in the world. Nor am I saying that it will necessarily beat out any trinkets you currently own. I merely did as he asked and ran some math on it-

If somebody does some sims or something on it and it proves to be worth it I'll retract this but by the looks of it it's a terrible piece for current game mechanics.

And it is a viable trinket under given circumstances. Not the best, not even great, but viable.

Сообщение от 292955

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от 383597

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Avandare

Сообщение от Mesoforte

Before I forget, The bold words in the quote...I can't remember how long its been since chain heal has been the main spell I had to cast.

I can link you countless WWS logs of the top resto shammies in the world and the vast majority of them use CH as their bread & butter spell. I cannot think of a single conceivable reason why we would try to replicate what a druid is doing with a single HoT or what a pally is doing with a poorly conceived single fast cast when we have the best raid heal spell in the game.

The OP's thread clearly said the roller had Naxx trinkets on. This trinket is extremely unlikely to beat any Naxx quality trinket. The answer to the OP's question is that his response was perfectly justified.

Soo, where have you been since Patch 3.0? Just wondering. :o

Oh, and I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to your request for a simulation or something.. Don't martyr the messenger just because he says something you don't like.

Oh yeah, WWS logs. I imagine that the top resto shamans are sporting somewhere near 500 haste with their nice gear. So Chain Heal would definitely be a better spell for them than it is for other shaman at a lower haste rating.

Сообщение от Avandare

Сообщение от 66520

I think that shamans dont have enough instant casts or casts close to 1-1.5 sec to make this trink worthwhile honestly.

I 'think' that on some fights 85-90% of my casts are 1-1.4 seconds long.

if no one else needed that trinket, who cares

QFT.

Сообщение от Mesoforte

Soo, where have you been since Patch 3.0? Just wondering. :o

In my virtual reality kicking butt.

I responded to you in my first post because your incorrect maths eluded to the trinket being any good for resto shammies, and that ahead of some Naxx trinkets ("but it can beat naxx trinkets"). Furthermore, you stating a string of numbers definitely does not mean you simmed it, or god forbid, tried it in a raid setting.

And finally, it's not merely the pro resto shammies that uses CH as their primary spell, the majority of resto shammies do in conjunction with RT and a LHW here and there for sport.

I think I'm done with this troll ...

Trolls don't back up what they say. I do.

If somebody does some sims or something on it and it proves to be worth it I'll retract this but by the looks of it it's a terrible piece for current game mechanics.

So I did a little bit of math-

Mp5 is regen over 5 seconds. The amount of casts you do determines the benefit you might get from this trinket. So you multiply 42 per spell you cast in 5 seconds.

5 casts in 5 seconds=210 mp5
2 casts in 5 seconds=84 mp5
3 casts in 5 seconds=126 mp5
4 casts in 5 seconds=168 mp5

The math is right, it just doesn't fit the heal style you choose. That's all. If you would stop trying to think I'm saying "You're wrong without any conditions," then you might be able to see it. The condition is, if you get a certain amount of constant casting, this trinket is viable when only considering regen. If you do not, it is not viable.

Сообщение от 195614

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Spark of Hope trinket? Was i right?

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