[PvE] Off-hand Swapping

Сообщение от Liquoid

This has lately been a topic of discussion on the ElitistJerks forums, and I decided to do some research into this area.

The general idea is, on a boss fight with a lot of time on target, you would use an off-hand with Deadly Poison until you stack up 5 DP stacks. Then you switch your off-hand to another one with same poison as your main-hand (i.e. WP for Combat, IP for Mutilate). When your DP stacks are about to expire, you switch back to original off-hand, and as soon as the DP stack refreshes, you switch to the second off-hand again.

Pros:

Possibly higher DPS output

Cons:

Only applicable on fights where you are on the target for prolonged periods of time
Risk of losing the DP stacks and having to build them up again
Hassle of setting up macros/scripts
Your secondary off-hand has to be as possibly good as primary
If Combat, your off-hand has to fit with your primary Weapon Specialization type (i.e. a sword off-hand can't be used as a secondary if your primary off-hand is a mace, and you're Combat Maces)

I did some live testing.

Spec: 18/51/2
My off-hands were two unenchanted Direbrew Shanker 2.0's (N.B. don't worry, I KNOW they are horrible as off-hands. I just didn't have another pair of identical daggers, as I vendored one of my Webbed Death's as soon as PPM mechanic for IP/WP was implemented, rendering dual WD's crap for Mutilate when compated to SR/WD combo.).

I used Outfitter created a "secondary" outfit with the WP off-hand, and enabled its automation using a custom script.
-- $EVENTS TIMER UNIT_COMBAT
local dp_name="Deadly Poison IX"
local switch_time = 5
local dp_detected = false;
for i=1,40 do
local n,_,_,s,_,_,x,c,_=UnitDebuff("target",i);
if n==dp_name and c=="player" then
dp_detected = ( x-GetTime() > switch_time and s == 5 )
end
end
equip = dp_detected;

To enable/disable scripts for Outfitter, use the following commands:
/outfitter enable
/outfitter disable
local dp_name is the parameter for the Debuff's name on your target.

If your client language differs from English, replace "Deadly Poison IX" with appropriate translation ("Tödliches Gift IX", "Veneno mortal IX", "Poison mortel IX", "Смертельный яд IX")

local switch_time is the duration (in seconds) of the remaining debuff required to switch back to primary off-hand. Assuming you have the value as 5: if your DP stacks are about to expire in 5 seconds, the script will switch back to primary off-hand (the one with DP). The faster your primary off-hand and the better latency, the safer it is to use lower value.

I did several 5-minute tests with and without the script active. Killing Spree, Adrenaline Rush and Blade flurry were not used. Only finisher was SnD, and when I was about to energy cap, I'd simply waste the CP's by Sinister Strike. Brief results seemed that when the script was on, I would usually perform better.

I will do some more testing and provide WWS data when I have more time.

Сообщение от 299264

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Сообщение от 176977

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Сообщение от Liquoid

Does your outfitter script automagically swap the weapons?
It does. Automagic at its best.

P.S. Script ain't mine, I saw it on EJ forums.

Сообщение от Coldkil

i run as mutilate and i have done some tests, my setup is 4pc t8, SR/WD and another SR for OH with IP. also, for the ruptureless cycle, i got another rogue in party which only had to refresh rupture on the target, so no other buffs/debuffs (he was muti as me).

with the same 51/13/7 build, i managed to get nearly the same dps (3.5k dps unbuffed on dummy for number lovers), for a 5 minutes fight. full cycle, all the time on boss.

this is probably due to the huge buff to rupture from 4pc t8, and i need to test the ruptureless cycle in a fight with less time on boss.

also, the 2pc t9 sucks so bad that is really worth to drop rupture from our cycle and ignore the set bonus?

Сообщение от Liquoid

also, the 2pc t9 sucks so bad that is really worth to drop rupture from our cycle and ignore the set bonus?

Getting 2pcT9 coincides with losing 4pcT8
Losing 4pcT8 is only viable with ~4 ilvl239+ armor pieces, and at that point it's viable to perform Rupture-less cycles.

Therefore, once you get to have 2pcT9, you are doing Rupture-less cycles... So 2pcT9 is worth zero.

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Сообщение от Coldkil

UPDATE
1st round of tests: No swapping, swapping.
Gear
Spec
4 minutes duration, 100% SnD uptime. I kept using SS even when I had 5CP's, to simulate a normal rate of Yellow attacks, such as SS.
The only proc during the testing was Berserking from Main-hand.

Contrary to my initial impression, weapon swapping showed as a DPS decrease of approximately 300.

good test. i think the point is around the spec. combat wont benefit of OH swapping because envenom raises only the chance to proc of istant poison, which combat spec don't use.

OH swapping made his step-out for mutilate spec, since with the envenom spam and in fact the near 100% uptime of envenom buff, will benefit the proc of IP from both daggers.

also, i found that is better to do an envenom before the weapon swapping, so the DP will get additional chance to proc and so reduce the possibility that DP drops.

Сообщение от Liquoid

good test. i think the point is around the spec.

I am intending to perform further dummy testing with other specs too.
I'm going to tighten up on the possibilities and allow as little as possible RNG allowed - this means that no weapons with Mongoose/Berserking will be used. As with my first test, I'll have no trinkets with procs either

Сообщение от 176977

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Сообщение от Liquoid

UPDATE
2nd round of tests: No swapping, swapping.
Gear: Same as before, except MH was Perilous Bite with Berserking.
Spec
4 minutes duration, 100% SnD uptime via CttC. Whenever I had 4+ CP's, I would Envenom, regardless of whether Envenom buff was already up and regardless of which off-hand was equipped at the moment.
Cold Blood and Hunger for Blood were not used.
The only procs during the testing were Berserking from Main-hand, Mjolnir Runestone (665 ArP rating) and Greatness (300 Agi).

Again, weapon swapping seemed to be a slight DPS decrease.

Coming next - same conditions but no Berserking, Mjolnir Runestone and Greatness.

Сообщение от Liquoid

I wonder what, if any, effect this swapping in fact does have on our enchants proc rates. Also would monitering weapon enchant procs and switching accordingly allow you to juke extra dps out of a zerker/zerker --> goose/goose setup?

If you have dual Berserking procced and you swap both weapons for another pair with Dual Berserking, you could proc another Berserking buff. However, the maximum simultaneous number of Berserking procs you can have this way is three.

Сообщение от Liquoid

UPDATE
3rd round of tests: No swapping, swapping.
Gear: Same as before, except MH was... Kris!
Spec
4 minutes duration, 100% SnD uptime via CttC. Whenever I had 4+ CP's, I would Envenom, regardless of whether Envenom buff was already up and regardless of which off-hand was equipped at the moment.
Cold Blood and Hunger for Blood were not used.
No procs at all.

This time the DPS difference is negligible.

Сообщение от Liquoid

Overview

In all three tests I could not get the best out of the weapon swapping script. Firstly, my latency was 300 ms. Secondly, the off-hands used were very slow - 2.0. I therefore used "local switch_time=6", and still lost my DP stacks quite a lot.

As the latency gets lower and as the off-hand speed gets lower, risk of losing DP stacks is lower and you can use the secondary off-hand with WP/IP for longer, resulting in higher DPS gain from the switching.

But is it worth it?

The more passive haste you have from Gear, the better WP/IP proc rate. If you are HfB Mutilate, 51/18/2 will become viable due to 10% haste with top-end gear.
Deadly Poison can't crit, but WP/IP can. You know how they say that HaT is Seal Fate on crack? Well, when you use weapon swapping, Focused Attacks becomes like HaT on crack. This only applies to Mutilate builds

If weapon swapping is considered viable, it would certainly be more profitable for Mutilate build not only due to reasons listed above, but also because of IP's benefit from Envenom buff. In the end, the technique of weapon swapping is very situational. Have a look at the list of cons and you'll understand me - a lot of criteria need to be met simultaneously in order to acquire a sometimes negligible DPS gain.

Your mileage may vary. Just because it seems like it's not worth it from me, doesn't mean it's dead. After all, my gear is rather outdated, as most of it is from the previous major patch.

Сообщение от Coldkil

again, good tests. im going to try with WD as DP offahnd, and SR as IP offhand (it should be the ideal setup imho) and share the results with you.

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Сообщение от Liquoid

Code updated and shortened (Source - EJ forums again). Now you will never have the WP/IP offhand equipped when you switch targets.

I will try some tests again, this time with faster offhands.

[PvE] Off-hand Swapping

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