Holy Paladin: Haste VS Crit;Spirit

Сообщение от Onijitsu

Why do you want more crit on your judgement? (Since Holy doesn't use TV.)

That talent is totally pointless, fyi

Really? We don't use Templar's Verdict? I'll bet you don't take points in either, because you don't use Hammer of the Righteous.

We DO use Judgement. (FYI) And we use it every 8 seconds, optimally. My current crit is around 16-17%, even with reforging everything to haste. With an additional 6% crit, that means one fourth of those Judgements are critting... and those crits contribute to keeping Conviction at closer to 100% uptime on 3 stacks.

One point, in order to help keep your heals buffed up at 9% greater than they would be, otherwise. I've been using Power Auras to track my stacks of Conviction, and I already see a difference.

Where do you put those points? Improved Judgements? For greater range? And if so, why? I'd rather be in with the melee, using Crusader's Strike to build up charges on my WoG. Meanwhile, any little crit -- be it a weakling crit -- on a weapon's swing, also procs Conviction.

Сообщение от svirve

What content are you talking about?

Any mildly challenging content will have you casting enough spells to keep conviction at a 100% uptime.
Any moderately challenging content won't let you stand in melee because of too much movement/aoe damage.
Any challenging content will have you judging less than every 8 seconds.

Putting the points in increased judgement range is a great thing to do, cause that extra crit won't do you more than bullcrap if you can't reach the boss with your judgement.

Сообщение от Flonnette

Frankly they could remove the damage from Seal of Light-Judgement. I could care less about the actual damage that goes out but the mana regeneration coming back.

A minor complaint I have about the low level talents across all trees, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is true of all classes, is they become a mishmash of disparate effects due to the side of effect of eliminating the number of talents. Although it makes building trees a bit easier I feel it adds to complexity but not in a good way. is a great example of this where you have class-specs that could care less about most of Crusade but need it for one crucial effect.

Сообщение от dslg604t

I haven't seen much talk in this thread about the buff to crit in 4.2.

How much of an effect will that have on the stat weightings?

Сообщение от red8981

HoS=what is this?

Hand of Sacrifice

so Hand of sacrifice is in drocck's healing rotation.... and no judgement, maybe thats why he oom so fastWhy do you want more crit on your judgement? (Since Holy doesn't use TV.)

That talent is totally pointless, fyi

he said mana regen. and I have no idea about it.

TL;DR: Crit can hate you and hate you and hate you, and when you are a paladin healer relying on Crit to love you?
YOU WIPE RAIDS.

When did I relying on Crit to love me?.... I am totally ok with no crit happens
And I havent wiped a raid yet, so... i think this one is not... true.

Сообщение от svirve

I haven't seen much talk in this thread about the buff to crit in 4.2.

How much of an effect will that have on the stat weightings?

Won't change much, just make it superior to mastery.
Well it kinda already is but more superior.

Сообщение от 341987

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Сообщение от Onijitsu

Any mildly challenging content will have you casting enough spells to keep conviction at a 100% uptime.

Yes. I've been told this by several people. It isn't true.

And I'd rather not be casting just to keep Conviction up, when I can be getting mana at low-damage points in any fight.

Any moderately challenging content won't let you stand in melee because of too much movement/aoe damage.

Haven't really had much of a problem with that. You still have to move in fights, whether you're in melee range or in caster range. I'd rather be in melee range. Nearer the tanks I'm healing. Especially, because I usually get paired up with a Warrior, and they can rush right out of your healing range. The Twins are a good example of this. I'm kept in with them and/or the melee, instead of with the casters. I share the meteor strikes. I run to the back when we have to dispel Blackout, and run back. Works wonderfully. The only time I am not beating on the boss is when there is something on the floor, or if I get Engulfing Magic.

Any challenging content will have you judging less than every 8 seconds.

Not possible. Judgement has a cooldown of 8 seconds, end of story. =)

And yes, I said "optimally." Meaning, sometimes you can't judge every time it's on cooldown. But my point is, we ought to be judging as often as we can, because that provides us with mana. Surely you aren't going to try to muster any argument against this. It seems like you're being more argumentative than anything else.

Putting the points in increased judgement range is a great thing to do, cause that extra crit won't do you more than bullcrap if you can't reach the boss with your judgement.

I reach the boss just fine. And, get crits off melee swings. And, get charges of Holy Power from Crusader Strike, when I can afford to cast that (which also has a chance to crit), so I can do more zero-mana/high-healing WoGs, more often. And before you argue against my use of Crusader Strike? No GCD goes to waste. None of them.

Сообщение от svirve

Yes. I've been told this by several people. It isn't true.

And I'd rather not be casting just to keep Conviction up, when I can be getting mana at low-damage points in any fight.

Of course you shouldn't be casting just to keep conviction up, but when you use HS and judgement on cooldown and throw out occasional holy lights to top people off (you do that even at low-damage points) your chances of dropping conviction are extremely low.

Example:
Conviction lasts for 15 seconds.
Say during those 15 seconds you judge once and cast 2 holy shocks and 3 holy lights. That's less than half of your GCDs spent.
You have a 15% crit chance, 30% with HS.
That gives you a 75% probability of critting.
With two points in that would only go up to 79%.
So basically you're trading 4% extra probability of critting for a sweet run speed talent, and an extra 20 yards on your judgement.
P.S. Well not both I just realized, but you can't reach PoJ without sacrificing other way more important talents.

Haven't really had much of a problem with that. You still have to move in fights, whether you're in melee range or in caster range. I'd rather be in melee range. Nearer the tanks I'm healing. Especially, because I usually get paired up with a Warrior, and they can rush right out of your healing range. The Twins are a good example of this. I'm kept in with them and/or the melee, instead of with the casters. I share the meteor strikes. I run to the back when we have to dispel Blackout, and run back. Works wonderfully. The only time I am not beating on the boss is when there is something on the floor, or if I get Engulfing Magic.
What raid size are you raiding with? 10/25? I can relate to what you're saying in 10 mans but not in 25mans, LoD and holy radiance gets too little exposure with melee as compared to ranged in 25 mans.

Not possible. Judgement has a cooldown of 8 seconds, end of story. =)

And yes, I said "optimally." Meaning, sometimes you can't judge every time it's on cooldown. But my point is, we ought to be judging as often as we can, because that provides us with mana. Surely you aren't going to try to muster any argument against this. It seems like you're being more argumentative than anything else.
Less would mean that the interval between each judgement is more than 8 seconds. You don't stop healing to judge when your tank is taking several very large hits, say cho'gall during flames orders or chimaeron during heroic feud.

No I'm not going to argument against that, but for every second more than 8 between each judgement, diminishes the use of the talent.

I reach the boss just fine. And, get crits off melee swings. And, get charges of Holy Power from Crusader Strike, when I can afford to cast that (which also has a chance to crit), so I can do more zero-mana/high-healing WoGs, more often. And before you argue against my use of Crusader Strike? No GCD goes to waste. None of them.
You're being awfully defensive, no I'm not going to argue against using CS, I do it myself when possible. However it's becoming less of an option in the later heroic modes. Can't remember a time I've done it on council heroic.

Сообщение от Onijitsu

In answer, 10-mans for the most part. We have had some cooperation with other groups for 25s. And yes, I find myself using LoD very little at all, most of the time, except in the Chimeron and Magmaw encounters. And, in the Twins. All times when people are grouped up. Holy Radiance, I use much more often. But part of this is that I'm assigned to Tank heals, and any raid heals I can afford to do are just gravy.

And yes, I can see being very busy with HMs to not be able to regain mana as easily. I worry about this, since we are so Judgement-dependent, compared to the Shaman I was previously using. (Where, I just had to keep Water Shield up, and pop Mana Tide when appropriate... and perhaps, cast the odd lightning bolt, if time afforded, to regen mana) But my answer to this is to try to be as mana-efficient in my healing as possible. Which is one of the reasons I'm trying to get more out of Conviction.

As I said, I have been running Power Auras to track stacks of Conviction, and it is not a constant thing. Even with decent amounts of casting, and 16-17% Crit in my stats. I may invite more question by sharing this, but I've even considered using my Украшенные перчатки яростного гладиатора, both because of their superior Int/Haste, and because of their boost to FoL crits.

Сообщение от svirve

In 10 mans I see what you're getting from, but you're still wasting PoJ which is a far superior talent in all aspects.
25 mans is a whole different story, part of why I was arguing in the first place :)

You're not too busy in heroics, just that you can't "exploit", I lack a better word, all of our tools, because of the harsher mechanics.
Most of the time you can spare a GCD to judge even if your tank isn't topped off. There is room for that, however at high damage portions like feud, flame orders, after crackle etc... You'll need to cast too much to be able to spare GCDs.

I see what you're getting at but when you get that far you won't have to worry about conviction.
Just looking around at some heroic mode fights on worldoflogs, there's an average conviction uptime of 90+%.
Surely I can't speak for their playstyle or if they're deliberately casting to keep conviction up but in my eyes it says a lot.
Also as I mentioned earlier, 2 points in arbiter of light only increases the probability of critting by 4%.
But takes away your chances of gaining 7% run speed and a much sweeter feet enchant.

What are you planning to use the gloves instead of? Do you really use FoL that much?
I rarely ever use it.

Сообщение от Onijitsu

I have a warrior tank who will take little damage at some times, and then drop like a rock. I'm attempting to see if I can find a decent addon to tell me what CDs he's using, so that I can judge the job he's doing, but I suspect he is not using his CDs appropriately. In such cases, I FoL-spam him when I have to. I hate doing it, but a live tank is better than a dead tank.

Considering using those gloves instead of the Рукавицы хранителя мира. I wouldn't lose much Crit, but I'd gain a whole lot of Haste. Eventually, I'm hoping to move to the tier gear, but I don't have any tier items as of yet. My Pally has been at 85 for about a week now.

Сообщение от Flonnette

I am with svirve on both accounts. You'd have to literally stop casting for 10 seconds then try to start again to risk lose stacks of Conviction during a raid encounter. Although events in the past forced idle phases, none of the current ones do so there is little reason to be idle. Another reason to go idle is a lot of movement but even during those phases Holy Paladins still have multiple effects. The last reason to go idle is if you run out of mana but at sub 3000 Spirit levels you can gain back enough mana to cast another Holy Shock or Holy light in less than 2 seconds. Even at "exhausted" levels of mana, you can still cast stuff.

And I don't understand even mentioning Flash of Light. Part of the reason why we are getting changes in 4.2 is that current parameters on Flash of Light are terrible compared to every other heal Paladins have where just "its fast!" doesn't make up for it. The only reason you should ever use Flash of Light is some "exotic" scenarios but otherwise if the target isn't going to die in 2 seconds then any other heal is better than Flash of Light.

Сообщение от svirve

Сообщение от red8981

I haven't seen much talk in this thread about the buff to crit in 4.2.

How much of an effect will that have on the stat weightings?
I didn't intend to discuss the crit change in 4.2.
It only make Crit a better stats, but not good enough yet.
I usually only post after I played with it, since I am not theorycrafting.
I have a warrior tank who will take little damage at some times, and then drop like a rock. I'm attempting to see if I can find a decent addon to tell me what CDs he's using, so that I can judge the job he's doing, but I suspect he is not using his CDs appropriately. In such cases, I FoL-spam him when I have to. I hate doing it, but a live tank is better than a dead tank.
Holy Paladin has various CDs to pop. It should not be a problem keeping a tank up. oRA is an addon tracks every member's spell usuage and shows you the CD on it. I believe you need check the settings, check the ones you want to track.

Considering using those gloves instead of the Рукавицы хранителя мира. I wouldn't lose much Crit, but I'd gain a whole lot of Haste. Eventually, I'm hoping to move to the tier gear, but I don't have any tier items as of yet. My Pally has been at 85 for about a week now.
Those glove are not good, generally. (unless you going with my point, Crit =]) Speaking in a general mind, the tier item are not good. All of them.

I do play my paladin with haste set gear and crit set gear.
I haven't been into Heroic version of the fight on my paladin, due to the lack of members in that guild.
I do have been into 10man 10/13 HM on my druid
I do have been into 25man 6/13 HM on my shaman
I do have been into 10/12 NM on my priest
I do have been into 10/12 NM on my paladin.
So, I have seen many things, and thinking about the paladin's stats and usuage. and still thinking.....

Сообщение от Onijitsu

If you have to FoL spam at any time, one of you is doing something wrong.
If it's the tank or you it's hard to say without seeing/knowing of the situation.
If you wanna track his cooldowns a way to do it would be to set up power auras to show effects from your focus target.

Get Рукавицы ледяной ловушки instead, drops from Maloriak so they're easy to get a hold of.

Yes. One of us was doing something wrong. Checked the combat logs over with my Guild Leader. The guy is hardly using his CDs at all. He used his Mirror trink four times the entire night. Some abilities, according to my Guild Leader (who also has a Prot Warrior) were not used at all. We're working to fix the issue by having the guy improve, having the guy take another role (including bringing another toon), or having the guy leave.

And yeah... got those Gauntlets Tuesday night. Wish that bastage would drop my damn Jar! (It hasn't dropped once!)

Сообщение от red8981

Сообщение от Onijitsu

Your tank is ____ (you fill in), unless you over geared that fight.
There are many CDs, like Гнев карателя, , help you to keep tank up, no need to flash heal him =]

and you want the jar as a paladin?

Basically, it became obvious that we were compensating for his failure to use his abilities. Both, the healers, and some of the DPS. He's improving, as our GL is working with him, but I may have finally convinced my co-leader of the team to consider replacing him if he can't carry his weight.

And, you haven't seen this guy. FoL is evil, but sometimes a necessary evil. Even with good tanks. Again, a live tank is better than a dead one. Plus, FoL is the faster alternative to building up a three-charge WoG than Divine Light. (Unless I'm close enough to one of the bosses that I can Crusader's Strike on him)

And yes, I want the Jar. I like my mana. Some of that may come from having played a Resto-Shaman (they have the worst mana issues of the five healers) and a Priest. Frilly procs tend to only add 2-3% to your healing score. In the end, I'd rather have the mana to do what I want to do. I don't even have one piece of Tier 11 yet, since my Pally has been up for a couple of weeks now -- I chose to grab the Core of Ripeness, since I have 353 or 359 items everywhere but my bracers now. (and a 357 iLevel) The four-piece bonus would be nice, when I can eventually get it.

Сообщение от StealthyKyrie

Though i am new to pallys for the most part, i heard that at one point we didn't get mana regen in combat from spirit...is that true?

Also, is there a haste...cap? Plateau? That i need to look for before i need to start looking for other stats?

Сообщение от Onijitsu

Though i am new to pallys for the most part, i heard that at one point we didn't get mana regen in combat from spirit...is that true?

Correct. Both Holydins and Resto-Shammies got mana from MP/5 before Cataclysm came. A whole separate stat, which you will occasionally find in places, but it's more vestigal than anything. Well, and other abilities. Like Judging, for Paladins. It used to be that Paladins stacked Int like mad. We still like Int quite a bit, but this was before the Cataclysm changes to Int and spellpower.

We still have these other abilities, but Spirit is useful to all healers now, and not just Druids and Priests.

Also, is there a haste...cap? Plateau? That i need to look for before i need to start looking for other stats?

There are several "stopping points" where Haste is most useful, though I don't know exactly where they are. I personally like Haste, so I don't worry about it overmuch. Faster heals = Better healing, and also means that I can squeeze out a Judgement more easily between castings.

Essentially, with Haste, both the casting speed of your spells improves (becomes shorter) and the length of a global cooldown (GCD - the rotation period between castings) improves. But there is a point of diminishing returns, beyond which the GCD cannot be reduced any further, and that's considered the real "cap", even though you can still improve the casting times of spells to some degree. During WotLK, Resto-Shammies gemmed and enchanted almost exclusively for Haste, and not spellpower. They actually hit that cap point at times.

EDIT: Look here for more info on Haste and caps.

---
As far as the other stats?

Mastery is almost pure crap for Holydins, except in special situations. (Like using our AoE healing abilities when we have a FAT group together, such as on Chimaeron) Crit is useful, but not nearly as useful as Haste.

Holy Paladin: Haste VS Crit;Spirit

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