Communism - can it work? A mature discussion on improving the welfare of all.

Сообщение от Rankkor

Do you not acknowledge that fascism is a real ideology with real adherents who are really trying to build movements?

I know its real, and I know there are people out there that have this horrible mindset as their core belief. I also know that this is an excuse used by would-be-tyrants to justify all the atrocities they commit.

Just as the Bush Administration used the word "terrorist" to excuse all the horrors they did in the middle east. Yes, there are real terrorist groups out there too, that doesn't give one man or group of men any justification to play with the lives of others.

So yeah, I'm getting mighty annoyed that the word "fascist" is the go-to buzzword for just about every single communist leader to justify their most extreme methods. Two wrongs don't make a right dude.

How can you expect me to take all of this anti-Communist propaganda at face value, if there are no real sources to base one's argument on?

What do you define as "Real"? What's written on the books? what's broadcasted on TV?

Because again, based on those definitions, you may as well say that EVERYONE here loves Maduro, and they loved Chavez, and they embraced the communist revolution with open arms. That's the "real" source. But all it takes is to live here for just a few weeks to see how "real" that version is.

Nevertheless, I still have every intention of working my hardest to make the promises of Communism into a reality.

And as someone who has lost almost everything and had to start from zero thanks to a communist revolution, I have every intention of doing what I can from preventing that virus, that CANCER from spreading to other nations.

I cannot stand to sit by and tolerate oppression any longer.

And as someone who plans to emigrate to the United States of America, I cannot sit by, and allow what happened to my beloved venezuela to happen again. This boat can't be salvaged back up, but I have no intention of allowing the second one I'm getting on to sunk by the exact same hammer&sickle-shaped iceberg that sunk mine.

I've already lived through one communist revolution, and watched in despair as it consumed and burned everything I held dear. What experience do you have with loss bro'? Not sacrifice, a sacrifice is a choice you make, a loss is a choice others make for you.

Сообщение от Skreeran

Just as the Bush Administration used the word "terrorist" to excuse all the horrors they did in the middle east. Yes, there are real terrorist groups out there too, that doesn't give one man or group of men any justification to play with the lives of others.

So yeah, I'm getting mighty annoyed that the word "fascist" is the go-to buzzword for just about every single communist leader to justify their most extreme methods. Two wrongs don't make a right dude.And, if you'll look above, you'll see that's not what I'm doing here.

I'm saying that I, and for the most part I think most of my comrades, would not fight a popularly supported Left party that was opposed to imperialism. Social democrats, anarchists, Trotskyites, the Green Party, the Pirate Party, the feminists, LGBTQ organizations, etc. all have differing opinions, than, say MLMs (Marxist-Leninist-Maoists), but we do value what they have to say, and I do not think we would have any problem letting them take the helm and try a different way to improve our society.

However, if a fascist party or say, the Republicans or the ancaps or Libertarians or something built support on a platform of restoring American imperialism, then we would have no choice but to fight them with everything we had. To do any less would be a total compromise of our beliefs.

What do you define as "Real"? What's written on the books? what's broadcasted on TV?

Because again, based on those definitions, you may as well say that EVERYONE here loves Maduro, and they loved Chavez, and they embraced the communist revolution with open arms. That's the "real" source. But all it takes is to live here for just a few weeks to see how "real" that version is.You keep proving my point for me. You absolutely cannot trust something just because it's printed in a book or aired on TV. The Cold War alone is a fantastic reason to doubt literally everything printed in the US about the USSR/PRC/Cuba/Vietnam/whatever. The First World says they're bad, the Second World says they're good. So I've based my opinions on them mainly on their stated ideologies and goals, rather than on the propaganda printed against them in the US.

And as someone who has lost almost everything and had to start from zero thanks to a communist revolution, I have every intention of doing what I can from preventing that virus, that CANCER from spreading to other nations.By all means. I disagree with you, but it's your right to do what you believe is right.

And as someone who plans to emigrate to the United States of America, I cannot sit by, and allow what happened to my beloved venezuela to happen again. This boat can't be salvaged back up, but I have no intention of allowing the second one I'm getting on to sunk by the exact same hammer&sickle-shaped iceberg that sunk mine.To be honest, I wouldn't recommend immigrating here right now. Speaking as someone who lives in the US, I think that revolution is coming, and with revolution there will probably be mass repression by the state. The US is dying.

I mean, by all means, leave Venezuela if you can, but I have doubts that things are going to get any better in the US any time soon.

I've already lived through one communist revolution, and watched in despair as it consumed and burned everything I held dear. What experience do you have with loss bro'? Not sacrifice, a sacrifice is a choice you make, a loss is a choice others make for you.I am extremely fortunate to have lost very little that is precious to me so far in my life. My dad was shot in Afghanistan while he was making a fortune as a mercenary at the expense of the Afghanis and American people, but being a cishet white American man, I've actually enjoyed a very priviledged existance.

That said, there are millions and millions of people who do not live the life I live, and who suffer American Capitalist oppression every day of their lives. I am not a Communist for my sake, but for theirs.

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Rankkor

To be honest, I wouldn't recommend immigrating here right now.

I don't have the luxury of a choice. Due to reasons that are a little long (and offtopic) to elaborate here, the only place I can actually leave to is the US. All other places are closed off for me. The few ones that are open are a few steps away from becoming the next Venezuela.

The US is dying.

/rollseyes.

People have been saying this for the past 60 years. I don't think the US economy is gonna be "dying" any time soon.

Speaking as someone who lives in the US, I think that revolution is coming

And if it comes, I'll be doing my part to put a stop to it. I've already lived through one Communist Revolution. I have no intention of going through another one, and watch it consume everything I love again.

I am not a Communist for my sake, but for theirs.

That's pretty much like saying "I've never drowned, but there are lots of people out there drowning, therefore I'm gonna shoot them. That'll help them not drown"

You're trying to help the sick and diseased with a cure that is worse than the disease itself.

I think I've said all I had to say on this thread, so its best I gracefully take my leave.

*sighs*

I really like you bro', seriously, I do. I think you're cool, smart, and a good man. I'm saddened that this is the path you chose to take, but I can respect your conviction. I can only hope this doesn't lead us to become enemies in the political scene if I ever manage to escape from this place and into the US.

Friendships are not something that should be broken by politics or religion. They're too precious and too scarce for that.

Сообщение от 230724

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Сообщение от Skreeran

Are you an animal rights and environmental activist.Yes.

Are you in college.No.

Do you listen to a lot of NPR.Not really. I like hearing their thoughts on things, but they're a propaganda network just like any other. They're literally paid-off by the government.

I don't have the luxury of a choice. Due to reasons that are a little long (and offtopic) to elaborate here, the only place I can actually leave to is the US. All other places are closed off for me. The few ones that are open are a few steps away from becoming the next Venezuela.

/rollseyes.

People have been saying this for the past 60 years. I don't think the US economy is gonna be "dying" any time soon.Well, if it's the only place you can go, then I won't say I told you so when it all goes under.

I think I've said all I had to say on this thread, so its best I gracefully take my leave.

*sighs*

I really like you bro', seriously, I do. I think you're cool, smart, and a good man. I'm saddened that this is the path you chose to take, but I can respect your conviction. I can only hope this doesn't lead us to become enemies in the political scene if I ever manage to escape from this place and into the US.

Friendships are not something that should be broken by politics or religion. They're too precious and too scarce for that.Yeah man, you're one of my best friends, and one of the few who I would even feel comfortable being this frank to.

I sincerely hope that you are able to leave Venezuela peacefully and that neither you or your family are ever harmed in the instability that's building in the world.

That said, I'm still going to keep working on building revolution.

@Skreeran, you are arguing from a theoretical and hypothetical position while Rankkor is arguing from reality. It seems that you are dismissing much of what he says as capitalistic propaganda. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.Not quite correct.

I'm arguing that Rankkor's "reality" of Communism is:

A. Built on a system that is Socialist in name but not in practice
B. Based on over a century of anti-Communist propaganda

The assertion that Stalin or Mao purposely murdered 500 billion people for the sake of personal power propaganda is just as much garbage as the "Dear Leader" Comrade Stalin kissed 100,000 babies today propaganda.

The "reality" that anti-Communists like to bring up, for all its thorough sourcing, is distorted beyond recognition by the Cold War. Actual, factual reality of 1930s USSR is so far behind us and obscured by propaganda that there is little point in even discussing it. The truth is, no one knows what exactly happened and why. How many were killed? Why were they killed? Were the charges against them legitimate? Was Stalin responsible? Was Communism responsible? Who documented this? Were they politically motivated? Who translated it into English? Were they politically motivated? Who compiled and summarized a thousand primary sources into a readable historical account? Were they politically motivated?

You see what I mean? Cite "history" all you want, but the truth it, I don't believe it. I think that America is too Capitalist, too opportunist, too revisionist, and too contaminated by CIA influence to trust their account.

With that said, though, even if it were well documented, that does nothing to discredit the value of Communist theory. If Stalin were a child-eating mass murderer rapist, all that does is convince me that he does not actually support Communist values, not that Communism is wrong in principle.

Communism stands for the end of all oppression, and I am 100% committed to that.

So basically you're a communist because the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence". I'm sorry to hear about your dad and I wonder if this has something to do with your current political alignment.To be honest, I don't think it does. He got shot in 2004, and I was still conservative enough to join the Army in 2011.

Rather, I got started in researching the causes of poverty first, and that's how I became an anti-Capitalist. I only became a Communist once I reached the conclusion that there is no other viable way to end Capitalism.

There is a good chance that many of them will tell you to stay out of their problems. Many are trapped in this cycle because it is all they know and all they are taught (at home and on the street) is that "The Man" is keeping them down. The media compounds this problem when all they focus on is corruption, greed, and racial bias.I've spoken to many people in oppressed countries. I have several Marxist friends in India, for example, where a Maoist rebellion is trying to overthrow the caste-based government.

Aside from studying and debating, what, exactly, are you doing to improve the lives of those you consider to be oppressed?]/quote]Well, first of all, I'm working on getting the hell out of the middle of nowhere. Studying and debating is about all I can do right now. After I find my way back to civilization, though, my main method of improving the lives of the oppressed will for joining or forming a Communist organization that seeks to raise the class consciousness of oppressed populations in my home state (mainly Indigenous Americans and migrant workers). By arming and educating the oppressed, we can help them destroy the conditions of their oppression. "Serve the People" is also a policy of Maoism, focused on supporting and improving the lives of oppressed people to gain their trust and confidence in order to build a mass line capable of revolution.

Are you teaching them how to rise out of the mud, without resorting to violence, that they seem to be trapped in?Who said anything about "without resorting to violence?" The oppressors use violence to enforce their oppression; how is it any different to use violence to destroy oppression?

There's an interesting coincidence about both fascism and communism. In theory the former is about government FOR the people and the latter is about government BY the people, in application and reality they both have a similar appearance and control that, in theory, they are against. Please tell me how this can be a good thing.Fascism and Communism are completely different; polar opposites, in fact.

Fascism is built on the idea that one kind of person is superior to all other; Communism is built on the idea that all people are fundamentally equal.
Fascism embraces Capitalism and seeks to defend it against Communism; Communism seeks to destroy Capitalism and Fascism both.
Fascism is built on right-wing Nationalism, it's conservative and traditionalist in nature; Communism is based on left-wing Internationalism, and is progressive in nature.
Fascism seeks to forge chains; Communism seeks to break them.

Finally, why is capitalism the target? Capitalism has been around from the beginning of recorded history. Simply put, any time a transaction takes place capitalism is at work. Your target should be the greedy, narcissistic, cheap, profit driven, corrupt companies and governments. These are the people who need to be exposed and brought to justice - not the business owners who love what they do, do it honestly and ethically, respect their employees, have a social conscience, and happen to make a profit (when did this become a 4 letter word?).This is a big question, and I'm gonna go ahead and link to some educational material so you can educate yourself:

https://www.marxists.org/ebooks/lenin/state-and-revolution.pdf
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Manifesto.pdf
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/index.htm

To boil a big book down, it basically goes like this:

1. Capitalism takes surplus-labor from the workers.
2. Capitalism causes inequality and concentrates more and more wealth into the hands of a small, privileged owner class.
3. Capitalism inevitably leads to imperialism.
4. Capitalism not indefinitely sustainable on a finite world.
5. Capitalism must be removed by force.

Besides that, I can only tell you that you ought read some Marx if you're really interested. Otherwise, if you aren't, and you're only really interested in contradicting me, then there's not much point in my typing up a whole bunch of stuff that's already been written by smarter and more eloquent people.

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Skreeran

Not really. I like hearing their thoughts on things, but they're a propaganda network just like any other. They're literally paid-off by the government.

That's an issue for you?They're one of the only radio stations we get up here, so I listen to them when we're driving, but I don't listen to the radio when I'm at home. I listen to their opinions on a lot of things, and in some cases they're actually pretty right on, but at the same time, I don't trust them to frame the issue in its proper context.

I tend to build my perception on current events based on a number of different sources including mainstream media, local bloggers and news from the region in question, Facebook, Wikipedia, and Russia Today, with one or two smaller sites that tend to make good analyses of long-term trends and themes.

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Skreeran

You didnt answer my question. Is government ownership of NPR an issue for you.Is it an issue? Well, no. It just means I don't trust on it to report on itself critically.

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Monday

You didnt answer my question. Is government ownership of NPR an issue for you.Is it an issue? Well, no. It just means I don't trust on it to report on itself critically.

You just rationally summarized my opposition to communism.

But couldn't you take this and apply it to capitalism? We can't expect the US to report on itself critically.

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Monday

DAE LE LOGICAL FALLACY!? I WIN!

It wasn't meant to discredit your statement, as it is actually a valid point. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the nature of capitalistic societies not reported critically on themselves.

Сообщение от Skreeran

You just rationally summarized my opposition to communism.So anything that's government owned is bad, lol.

You think that corporations will report on themselves critically?

The whole point of a communist revolution is to destroy the bourgeois state and then create a collectively owned, democratic socialist state, solely for the purpose of building the conditions necessary for Communism, and then dismantling the state again.

Tell me how the private sector criticizes themselves and swear Scout's Honor that they'll tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Edit: I forgot, I came in here to drop some neat links:
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/china-is-not-as-capitalist-as-you-think/
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/09/asia/china-tycoon-execution/index.html
http://www.alternet.org/story/42826/socialism_is_alive_and_well_..._in_vietnam

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Skreeran

I didn't claim they did. You said you can't trust government to be critical of itself and you're communist. I'm trying to reconcile those two things. I don't wish to argue against you remember, just understand. What I have so far is, want a ~~totalitarian government~~ state owned, administrated, and controlled exclusively by a revolutionary proletarian class, but you don't think bourgeois Capitalist government can be honest in self examination. When I ask how you can be both of these I got a rant directed at the us, capitalism, corporations, and of course the bourgeois. As amusing as that is, I don't get the relationship. Could you please connect the dots.Fixed that for you.

I want a transparent, democratic, collectively owned and managed states in the exclusive control of the Proletarian class.

Radio broadcasts paid for by the bourgeois American government, built on inequality, propaganda, and state secrets, cannot be trusted to report critically of the state that pays them stacks of cash.

Those are two completely different things.

You didnt answer my question. Is government ownership of NPR an issue for you.Is it an issue? Well, no. It just means I don't trust on it to report on itself critically.

You just rationally summarized my opposition to communism.Explain to me how not taking the narrative coming out of an organ of the American Imperialist state at face value is contradictory to wanting to overthrow the American Imperialist state and to replace it with a one built on the values of social justice, equality of privilege and opportunity, anti-imperialism, anti-fascism, and international camaraderie?

It's like asking how I can be skeptical of Joseph Goebbels' account of World War 2 and but also support the Russian revolution. The two things are non-comparable.

And here's an unrelated comic pointing out the backwards logic behind "the land of opportunity."

Сообщение от 1458157

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Сообщение от Skreeran

I get it now. Thanks. So how are you going to bring this about. From the ashes of the impending collapse of the us?Well, that's a damn good question. In most other places of the world, the first course of action is "Get out from under US imperialism."

Here in the US, the first order of business is derailing US imperialism and possibly the whole US altogether. Actual Communist revolution takes years and years of building, and since we're on the positive side of imperialism, it would take even longer to convince the population that Communism is the way to strike at Capitalism.

In my opinion, the most important thing right now is to focus on stopping imperialism. The Communist movements in the third world will have a much greater chance at success without the US propping up the state. We'll probably be, like, the very last country to actually go full Commie if the US holds together. Otherwise, I could see some states breaking off and building their own conception of socialism.

Would you mind talking more about social justice, and on a side note, we should probably clear up which side of poe's law we're on. I'm genuinely unsure.In regards to the latter, I'm being completely, 100% serious. You can't get more serious than me right now. As for the former, social justice is one of the cornerstones of Communist ideology. I'm talking feminism, minority rights, LGBTQ rights, economic justice in regards to the oppressed third world and the domestic poor. We want social justice, a fair society, and Capitalism is incapable of giving it to us.

Сообщение от 1458157

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Communism - can it work? A mature discussion on improving the welfare of all.

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