An article on Varian Wrynn being right

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Сообщение от 166613

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Сообщение от 331656

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Сообщение от ruleofthumb

As much as I'd love to see Thrall win an epic duel with Garrosh

Thrall and Garrosh dueled during the Lich King's attacks on Orgrimmar and Stormwind. Unfortunately Garrosh won, but it was quite the match to watch :)

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Сообщение от Supremacy

Garrosh hadn't even attacked him yet. Varian basically said "Come and get me!"

That is a challenge.

That is no self-defense.

Garrosh drew his weapons and did not attack until Varian challenged him.

I am somewhat surprised this perspective is still being defended.

Garrosh started that fight as soon as he drew weapons on the Varian. Varian was not intimidated. He was giving a show of strength, letting Garrosh know that he wasn't going to stand there and let him bully him, or anything like that. One method of defense is showing your attacker (in this case, Garrosh) that you are not a soft target.

By this thinking, if I pull a gun on someone, and they say "I'm not afraid of you, coward!", and I pull the trigger? Somehow they are at fault.

No.

Just...just no. It doesn't work like that.

IMO, neither the King or the general can be seen as victims here, both wanted a fight.At first you can say that Varian was defending himself, but rather in a defensive combat position.

If Varian really was up to being rational and to ignore his own lust for blood, he wouldn't say "What are THEY doing here?", the same way Garrosh wouldn't have drawn his axes.

I went back and rewatched the footage. The extent of Varian "prompting the fight" was "What are they doing here?" He didn't insult them, he didn't attack them. I don't think he was even talking to them. It wasn't exactly polite, but it's far from an insatiable bloodlust.

Garrosh pulled the weapons. Garrosh insulted the king. Then Garrosh attacked. Garrosh was the aggressor. You can't just say, "Oh, Varian said 'they' a certain way," or "he had a certain look in his eye", or anything like that. This entire thing is Garrosh's fault. There's no middle ground here.

I don't think, by the way, in any camp - Horde or Alliance - that an acceptable response to a question is drawing weapons.

Varian challenged Garrosh in reponse to Garrosh's advances, but it was a challenge. "I think Thrall would have gotten Garrosh under control if Varian hadn't challenged him.

...Thrall's recent history with Garrosh seems to argue against that point, no?

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Сообщение от Skreeran

Garrosh hadn't even attacked him yet. Varian basically said "Come and get me!"

That is a challenge.

That is no self-defense.

Garrosh drew his weapons and did not attack until Varian challenged him.

I am somewhat surprised this perspective is still being defended.

Garrosh started that fight as soon as he drew weapons on the Varian. Varian was not intimidated. He was giving a show of strength, letting Garrosh know that he wasn't going to stand there and let him bully him, or anything like that. One method of defense is showing your attacker (in this case, Garrosh) that you are not a soft target.

By this thinking, if I pull a gun on someone, and they say "I'm not afraid of you, coward!", and I pull the trigger? Somehow they are at fault.

No.

Just...just no. It doesn't work like that.
But it was not self-defense yet. Garrosh had not attacked and Varian did not try to avoid a fight.

If a bully starts pushing your buttons, trying to start a fight, and you jump into the fight, you are not acting in self-defense. If the bully throws a punch, and you protect yourself and then fight him, that is self-defense. Garrosh drew his weapons trying to start a fight, but did not attack. This is the important thing. Varian didn't even give him time for Thrall to get him under control, or Garrosh to make an advance or anything. Varain immediately challenged him.

Here's a better analogy:

One member of two rival gangs are both in a bar. One says "What's he doing here!" (which I might mention is rather insulting on it's own. It's a territorial affront, the equivalent of saying "Me and my crew own this bar.")

Then gang member 2 makes a fist or draws a knife or whatever. He's wrong at this point. His buddy says "Be cool, man. Be cool."

At this point, the gang member 1 says "Come and get me, you wuss." and draws his own knife.

At this point gang member 2 attacks.

They were both pushing for a fight. They were both wrong. Neither was acting in self-defense.

Varian challenged Garrosh in reponse to Garrosh's advances, but it was a challenge. "I think Thrall would have gotten Garrosh under control if Varian hadn't challenged him.

...Thrall's recent history with Garrosh seems to argue against that point, no?We don't really have a recent history. The only recent interaction between the two was Orgrimmar (where Thrall DID fight Garrosh for his insubordination, and I would also like to mention that Garrosh did not win, their fight was interuppted. We don't know who would have won, but I'd bet all my money that Thrall would have). The other event between Garrosh and Thrall was in Dalaran, and we don't know what Thrall would have done if Varian hadn't encouraged the fight. I think that Thrall would have been able to control Garrosh. Things hadn't quite heated up yet.

Сообщение от 306612

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Сообщение от Skreeran

You know who should put the smack down on Garrosh, Horde side?

Cairne Bloodhoof.Hell yeah!

Time for Mr. Angst to get beatdown by da Beef Chief!

Сообщение от 344679

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Сообщение от Skreeran

Stormwind humans aren't so desperate that they are willing to give up their standards: they do NOT mingle with evil people. (well, there are evil poeple among them but they dont know/think they are evil you get my point they think orcs are evil).1. Mingling or not, starting a war with the Horde is not a wise action. If their not desperate enough to focus on the threat and deal with the Horde later, then they should be. If it weren't for the Horde, they'd all be hungry for brains right now.
2. They do entirely mingle with "evil people." Warlocks, for example. But that's not enitrely important. The problem is, the current Horde is based on survival and redemption, the current Alliance is based on revenge and a believed moral superiority.

though i know that there are other hordes and the other clans of orcs are different from thralls orcs, im just saying, for orcs in general and the truth of the matter is that the new
"hippie" orcs still in ways resemble them. they still have old hatreds too, and they show violent tendencies and stuff just like the others.It's only been 20 years for them to change more than 45 years of Old Horde warrior culture. And they were at war with the Ogres before that. Peace is a fairly new concept to them, especially with the Alliance. People like Thrall are the greatest hope for a peaceful future Horde, and Varian wants to kill him.

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