24 stam vs 8str 12stam?

Сообщение от x2kaiser

hi im prot warrior and i just realized today that str also increases your shield block (or so i think it was?). i currently am def capped and have 29khp atm. i was wondering if i should go with str/stam gem for more dmg along with shield rate or stick with 24 stam gem? please give me some pointers ty!

Сообщение от Sakkura

Never gem for strength for tanking. It's not a wasted stat, but it's nowhere near as good as the alternatives (stamina, expertise, defense).

Сообщение от 211938

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Сообщение от Sakkura

Dodge. I'd gem for Dodge, Stam or Expertise.
Defense is better than dodge, point for point.

Сообщение от Fakir

Сообщение от Porcell

Dodge. I'd gem for Dodge, Stam or Expertise.
Defense is better than dodge, point for point.
For less chance of getting hit by a normal attack defense is better, yes. For pure avoidance, dodge is better than defense since block is not avoidance.

A lot of statements of fact here, none of them really contradicting. Dodge is better than defense for pure avoidance, true. Defense is better than dodge, also true (you get slightly less avoidance, but get some block in exchange and "miss" which is the best form of avoidance). Prot warriors shouldn't gem for strength, also true.

To the OP, if you are looking for something to put in red sockets, expertise/stamina if it's a threat piece or dodge/stamina if it's an avoidance piece.

Сообщение от 93026

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Сообщение от Sakkura

Dodge. I'd gem for Dodge, Stam or Expertise.
Defense is better than dodge, point for point.
For less chance of getting hit by a normal attack defense is better, yes. For pure avoidance, dodge is better than defense since block is not avoidance.

Defense better avoids diminishing returns, meaning that it will in most cases lose less than dodge rating from it and thus give more actual avoidance per point (where, even before diminishing returns, they are practically identical). That it gives better types of avoidance as well as side benefits via block chance and crit immunity (the latter mostly for flexibility) is just icing on the cake.

Сообщение от 203406

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Сообщение от Shiverlynn

That's what he's saying, yes.

I wonder also why I shouldn't gem for str on a purely shield slam set, I mean really purely block value oriented? To tank heroics for instance, so I can get every single BV point that is possible to get.

Сообщение от 93026

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Сообщение от anywherenotes

I gotta tell you, it sure seems that gemming for +def is always better than gemming for +dodge.

according to these pages:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40015#comments +def gem gives 0.39% Avoidance + 0.13% Block Chance
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40000#comments +dodge gem gives 0,40662816%

I realize that .4 > .39, but those numbers assume you have no DR, however you already have way more dodge than parry, so parry gets taxed less by DR; you also have more dodge than miss, so miss gets taxed less as well. So my guess would be that the real numbers after DR favor a +def gem for pure avoidance.
Than you have to factor in that miss and parry is better than dodge (which resets swing timer). And finally block, which I'm not that worried about since I'm a DK, but for you guys it's not something to be ignored completely.

My guess is +dodge gems are more of a druid gems. Of course you could also use them to satisfy socket bonus.

Сообщение от Sakkura

My guess is +dodge gems are more of a druid gems.
Nah, druids go for agility.

Сообщение от Porcell

BASELINE (No Trinkets)

544 skill, 710 Rating (5.76% Miss)
293 Rating (7.45% dodge) (22.31% total)
361 rating (7.34% parry) (20.61% total)
102 Rating (6.22% block) (21.98% total)

ADDED ONLY VALOR MEDAL (84 Dodge Rating)

544 skill, 710 Rating (5.76% Miss)
377 Rating (9.58% dodge) (23.93% total)
361 rating (7.34% parry) (20.61% total)
102 Rating (6.22% block) (21.98% total)

ADDED ONLY SEAL of the Pantheon (65 Defense Rating)

557 Skill, 775 Rating (6.28% Miss)
293 Rating (7.45% dodge) (22.71% total)
361 rating (7.34% parry) (20.93% total)
102 Rating (6.22% block) (22.50% total)

84 Dodge Rating = 2.13% dodge (1.62% dodge after DR)
1 Dodge Rating = 0.02536% dodge (0.01929% dodge)

65 Defense Rating = 0.52% to all before DR; ~0.4% Miss, 0.4% dodge, 0.32% parry, 0.52% block after DR (1.56 avoidance before DR, ~ 1.12% avoidance after DR)
1 Defense Rating = 0.024% avoidance (~0.01723% avoidance after DR)

For the defense rating, I say approximately because there's no way to know the ACTUAL miss chance after DR since it is not listed on the character sheet. I used the same diminished rate that dodge uses, which I think is generous. I think the actual miss DR rate is closer to the Parry side of the scale than the Dodge side.

So it doesn't "end up better" just because you are spreading around diminishing returns. With the dodge trinket you are getting 76% (0.01929/0.02536) of your expected avoidance after DR. With the defense rating you are getting 77.5% (0.0062/0.008) of your expected dodge avoidance, but only getting 61% (0.0049/0.008) of your expected parry.

Comparing the two before diminishing returns they are very close (0.024% avoidance per rating for defense, 0.0254% for pure dodge, or about 6% more). After diminishing returns, dodge provides about 12% more avoidance than defense (0.01929% dodge vs 0.01723% avoidance on defense).

Then again, you get the block rating added for defense.

However, if you look at the math, defense doesn't "get better" because you are spreading around avoidance and somehow reducing your diminishing returns. It gets worse once you figure in DR because you are getting parry, which is bad for diminishing returns.

I'm not saying defense rating is bad though. You get some block, which is good. It's just not as good as straight dodge rating if you are focusing on avoidance.

Сообщение от anywherenotes

@Porcell, thank you for great breakdown.

Сообщение от 93026

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Сообщение от Porcell

The points at which DR start to take greater effect are at about 25% dodge and 20% parry. Both these values are easy enough to hit without geming for either. With the gear out there, there is little point to geming for Dodge or Parry.

People keep saying that, but it's very misleading. There isn't some magical break point on avoidance where it "gets worse." It's a curve, it continually and gradually gets worse.

There's never a point where you gem for parry, but gemming for dodge is still a good idea for an avoidance set for those encounters that you need avoidance.

Сообщение от 93026

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Сообщение от Porcell

Yes it gradually gets worse and at about 25% every point in defense is worth more in avoidance then every point in dodge. The point in which geming for dodge makes more sense then geming for defense is very small and easily get bypassed by the points in dodge found on the gear.

My example posted above is with pretty much best in slot avoidance gear, and I showed that (for avoidance) dodge rating is ~12% better than defense rating.

Unless you can figure out some crazy way to have ALL dodge rating from gear and NO parry rating from gear, I don't think you'll ever find a point where defense gives you more avoidance than parry. The fact is that just from having defense at 540 defense that already puts you at around 5.21% parry (after DR), which puts the point where parry rating is better than dodge rating at around 20%. Now that's 20% FROM GEAR. Even with nearly BiS avoidance gear you'll only be seeing around 26% dodge, 5% is from talents and 5% is the base amount, which means you are only getting 16% dodge from your dodge rating and 540 defense.

You would need so much dodge rating, and so little parry rating, that it's just not possible to achieve right now (or likely ever).

Сообщение от 93026

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24 stam vs 8str 12stam?

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