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Varian Thread
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Post by
Skreeran
I'm tired of arguing. Darkton won't listen to me, and seems to be too set in his beliefs for us to ever change his mind. He's always going to believe Varian is the greatest leader who ever lived and I'm always going to believe that he wants to kill all my characters and imprison their children.
At least until Blizzard leads us by the hand and has them directly state what they believe and whether it's right or wrong.
And so, considering you won't possibly consider my stance, I'm sick of arguing.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Its the eternal definition of the pot calling the kettle black here Dark.
I know, but they are members none the less.
Kinda short sighted don't you think?
This is stupied, if they want to be part of the Horde, then they are Horde. End of story.
Are you kidding me? How is this justice? It was against his worse enemys the forest trolls, and he wanted it to fight against them. In other words, murder of innocents for a stupied reason.
Well according to Varian or your logic, one troll is the same as any other. And Vol'jin also figured rather then leave a weapon that could kill trolls in alliance hands, it was just better to take it off there hands. Its like leaving nuclear weapons in the hands of a terrorist organisation and not doing anything. What would stop any alliance member taking that weapon and using it to kill trolls in the horde now?
Further increasing why Varian is right.
Hardly.
You are stupied as hell, I have told you several times
today
to stop being so tunnel visioned, and all you do is post and troll.
Its stupied to deny Varian like this, you are telling him "shame on him for defending his people"
Well, shame on Thrall for stopping Admiral Proudmoore
Its saving more lives if you actualy fight back instead of letting the Horde quests where you have to attack the Alliance pile up ya know...
And ffs, quit listing neutral fractions for when you want to prove him wrong (Which you suck at), they are neutral
for a reason
.
And its only "not listening to them" if he
meets them
First off, its 'stupid'.
Second, telling someone else to stop having tunnel vision after I said this is what Varian has, all your doing is regurgitating what someone else has said in a non creative way.
And oh I don't deny he 'thinks' he's defending his people, but he's doing it in such a short sighted way he endangers them more then defends them.
And your saying its
stupid
to deny someone who refers to my side as being savages, who wants to wipe them all out, who fails to listen to the reason of others more intelligent then him?
Your beginning to sound more like the character you admire so much dark, and I mean that as in all his negative points.
Lothar, yes
Doomhammer? Phh, hell no.
Read tides of darkness and say again.
Thrall, yes
Ravencrest and Shadowsong, I did not read War of the Ancients
Shame really, do it.
Varian, yes
He is a good leader, and you just have to learn to see that. I don't really care though, I have tried explaining it, Rankkorr, Skreeran, and Hivoltage learned about the way the Alliance sees things, but you are hopless.
I'm hopeless you say?
Thats funny, coming from you of all people. You criticising anyone who doesn't see things from king chins point of view, but you are unable to see anything from the hordes point of view.
I have said about characters on the alliance side I truely admire, from Lothor to Jarod Shadowsong and Jaina, but you think because I can't stand Varian and see him for the tool he is, that I have a narrow point of view?
Maybe because I won't see things from just your point of view that you find that so frustratiing?
Trolling...again
I never said any of that.
Words to the effect, you did. Going back over all posts made to the contrary, you've made it clear you think only Varians point of view on the horde is absolute, that no one elses matters, and even that you don't give an answer to the neutral factions allying with the horde.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
@Hivoltage
I take back what I said about Doomhammer, I don't like him, but he is a really good militraist according to Tides of Darkness. Thank you. I know it can be hard to look past personal bias in these things. Being the tactically-minded person that I am, I had to bring it up.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I'm tired of arguing. Darkton won't listen to me, and seems to be too set in his beliefs for us to ever change his mind. He's always going to believe Varian is the greatest leader who ever lived and I'm always going to believe that he wants to kill all my characters and imprison their children.
At least until Blizzard leads us by the hand and has them directly state what they believe and whether it's right or wrong.
And so, considering you won't possibly consider my stance, I'm sick of arguing.
Don't worry about it Skeeran.
A constructive forum debate is based on hearsay and conjecture. Its based on the indevigual opinions of people talking about a subject they enjoy, and even when someone finds another person that doesn't equal the same, they find a neutral ground.
In Darktons case, it seems any argument based on Varians actions are meet with him saying Varian is the only one whos right, and everyone else is wrong to question him. And any argument be it big or small is meet with then same response.
Dark, if you want people to take what you say seriously, you might want to step back and broaden your view on the whole Varian thing, see the faults in the arguments you create, and find that neutral ground.
Post by
Rankkor
for some reason darkton has ignored the points I am trying to debate here, could it be he has nothing to wield against them?
.
you say things like "I dont recall saying he is the best leader ever" but as of yet I havent seen you say something varian has done wrong, wich is why I issue to you this challenge, list 10 things you think he has made wrong, 10 in wich he's not right, in wich he made a mistake
I just find it hard to belive you feel he will enslave orcs when Varian said himself he hates slavery
well dude I just can't understand you, first you say that varian doesn't wanna comite genocide against the orcs, and now you say he doesn't want to enslave them, then what does he want to do? in case you didn't know, he said the horde has been "unchecked" and that he plans to chance that, and the only way to keep someone checked 24/7 is to either keep them in a cage, or keep them 6 feet under.
graveyard or cage dude, these are the only ends to a war, and so far u've said that varian wan'ts neither, but that's false, he HAS to choose one of these,
you wish to remain in fantasy land where varian is god, and everything he says and does is good, and will shape up azeroth for the best? you do that, the other 99% of the players of world of warcraft will continue to see varian for what he is:
A racist, a Warmonger, a Poor leader, a stuck-up fool, and the worst excuse of a king to have ever seated in the throne of stormwind, I honest to god can't wait for him to die, and anduin be crowned the new king of stormwind (and don't pull that crap of "varian will never die blah blah blah", he's a human, not a draenei, or elf, humans live at best for 80 years tops, some few get to 100 and that's it, so wheter by sword or the slow decay of time one thing remains certain varian at some point WILL die, and personally I can't wait for it to happen)
and as usual, lay-off the name calling, we find it offensive, if someone insuts you, the thing to do is /report and move on, so stop igniting flame-wars against those that disagree with you.
I'm tired of arguing. Darkton won't listen to me, and seems to be too set in his beliefs for us to ever change his mind.
truer words have never been spoken, let him remain in fantasy land.
Amen.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
If you think Varian is a bad leader, then its not my fault you don't ever put yourself in someone else's shoes.The war he's starting will end lives, not save them. Period.
It's one thing to go onto the defensive. But that's not what he's doing.
And for the last freaking time, being rasict means you pre-judge someone, and every time Varian meets a orc, he almost loses his life.He is racist.
"Full or half, an orc is an orc. None of your blood can be trusted!"
That is the literal definition of racism.
Again, if all Varian can get from working with the Horde is almost being beheaded, then your making a mistake telling him to listen to a few old events; its the present that matters.Since when was that the only thing that can happen when you work with the Horde?
He went to two peace meetings and both were disrupted by
third-parties
. The Horde had nothing to do with those problems, less, in fact, than the Alliance had to do with them.
On the other hand, there's been many, many occasions in the past where the fate of the world has depended on the Alliance and Horde working together, and they have, and it worked.
And for the love of god, stop listening nutral fractions when you want to say we can work to together, I can't decide if this is more stupied, or more old of an excuse.That's silly. Nuetral factions composed of Alliance and Horde members prove that they can work together. If they couldn't work together, wouldn't the faction fall apart?
And I have no idea why you are saying who's fault the mini-games of Horde vs Alliance in Outland are, the point is we are not working together.They
are
working together. You see that in Shattrath, you see it at the Dark Portal, you see it with the Velen at the Sunwell.
A few territorial quarrels does not equate to a disaster. For the most part they are not fighting eachother (you don't see any "Go attack X at Allerian Stronghold" do you?), and they have succuss when they work together.
Mabye I was not reffering to Llane, mabye I was reffering to Thrall's hero, which of whom he wears his armor in honor an named many things after, attempted to eliminate every human on Azeroth for no reason, other then the ocs wanting Azeroth for themselves?1. Orgrim is a hero for what he did to free the orcs and teach Thrall.
2. Orgrim killed the Shadow Council and set in motion the chain of events that led to the orcs freedom from the Legion.
3. It wasn't for no reason. Orgrim's people would have starved to death or killed eachother if they didn't have a leader to lead them against Azeroth.
Alterac is not experimenting on orcs and trying to destroy thier race.The Scarlet Crusade is, though. And Varian, by all accounts,
is
trying to destroy the orc and Forsaken races.
Varian did not see any of them. Ff, everyone is telling him to trust someone who wants his head everywhere he turns.If he hasn't heard of them, he is so dense that his chin has probably become a singularity by now.
Usually Varian-haters say somthing stupied like "Shame on Varian for defending his people"Shame on Varian for starting a war to kill my people that will only get more of his people killed.
And I have argued that Terenas and Lothar would be proud of Varian and agree with the steps he takes, but you ignore that.I don't think so. Lothar would see that there is a bigger threat that needs to be dealt with. Terenas... really wasn't that much of a leader...
The society of infinate
retards The Varian-hatering club seems to think that anyone they like will do what ever they want, and everything Varian does is instantly bad.There's that trolling again...
Besides, where do you think our beliefs of Varian are founded? His decisions really don't seem in either the Alliance or Horde's best interest, all things considered.
Perhaps what he meant by "It ends now", is that he is tired of seeing everyone who fights the the Alliance dieing for this so-called "peace"Perhaps. Perhaps he should just stick to defending, rather than deciding to go on an offensive to wipe the Horde of the face of Azeroth.
I think he wants to simply defeat the Horde.
"Scatter" them, or "disband" themHow does he intend to do that? How will he "scatter" them from Orgrimmar? How will he "disband" Thrall's Horde?
By killing or imprisoning them, that's how.
If Garrosh said: "What this world could be without you and your pathetic Alliance... It ends now, Human."
Would you think he meant to "scatter" or "disband" the Alliance?
Lets say that one real-life countiryis attacked, and that countrydecideds to fight against the attackers.
Would you call that genocide?If they vowed to end the other country, to the point of removing them from the world... yes, I would.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And for the love of god, stop listening nutral fractions when you want to say we can work to together,
Why? Its racial cooperation nonetheless and that's a fact.
You have no proof if they even came from the Horde or Alliance, so thus, it can not be a symbol of Horde and Alliance cooraperation.So there random unfactioned people? Dark think before you post.
Mabye I was not reffering to Llane, mabye I was reffering to Thrall's hero, which of whom he wears his armor in honor an named many things after, attempted to eliminate every human on Azeroth for no reason, other then the ocs wanting Azeroth for themselves?
I believe that Doomhammer is honored for other feats other than the Second War.
Ahh, yes!
How he ordered the fall of the Alliance interment camps even though the only reason his pathetic life still goes on is because of humans!
Doomhammer broke free after a month in a camp and became a hermit
BEFORE
Thrall was even 2, again Dark, look stuff up before you start posting information you see as true.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Thrall knows about Doomhammer's deeds, and so does the rest of the Horde... and yet they still like him.
Because from the Horde's perspective, Doomhammer never did anything wrong.
Post by
Adamsm
Thrall knows about Doomhammer's deeds, and so does the rest of the Horde... and yet they still like him.Okay..... so what's your point? Seriously? You keep going on and on about something, but your not being clear.
So lets look at it this way, because I'm tired of you saying absolutly nothing, yet bashing other users.
Doomhammer, never wanted to come to Azeroth, but he was loyal to his people so he went with them through the Portal. He learns that a corrupt group (Shadow Council) is using the Horde for their own gain so he destroys them and takes over. Yes he should have killed Gul'dan right off the back, same with Cho'gall, but he didn't and so we ended up with the Death Knights. Now, Doomhammer had two choices; remain on a living world like Azeroth, or go back to the dead and dying world of Draenor. So, he chose the first choice; and yes he could have just stayed in southern Eastern Kingdoms... and they would have ended up killing themselves as they fell to in-fighting.
He also figured out from the beginning that no matter what, it was going to be a war, so yes he pushed north to try to kill his enemies first (
like a certain Human King does nowadays
), because otherwise it would have been for naught.
And no, they couldn't go to Kalmidor at that point, mainly because very few people even knew it existed beyond a few of the mages and the Dragons, neither of who were sharing their information.
So, 2nd war happens, Doomhammer is stopped at Blackrock, and bang, he's captured... then like I said, escapes after a month in those hellholes that the Alliance called the Interniment camps; and he tried to rally his people but he couldn't because they were in the throes of the Demonic withdrawl. So, for the next decade and a half, he wanders the Eastern Kingdoms, stealing to live but staying away from any of the military camps.
Thrall breaks free, after being in the hands of a sadistic evil bastard, who intend to betray the Alliance and use the Slave as a leader of a new Horde of Orcs to bring the humans under his control. Doomhammer arrives, fights Thrall and accepts him, he then trains him, and tries to instill both his and his Father's ideals in the orc.
So, without Doomhammer, Thrall wouldn't have had the training he needed to control the Horde, the man was also like an Uncle to the young Warchief. Yes, Doomhammer did horrible things.... but lets be honest, beyond the Gnome leader and Velen, you can't find an Alliance leader who hasn't done something that someone considers Evil.
So seriously, stop flailing around, insulting people and look stuff up before you say "No your wrong! I'm right! Long live Varian."
Post by
Skreeran
You said you were done Skreeran.
Buzz off.I think we need to get Trollbane in here.
The Horde player's guild says she is in charge of all Horde forces in the Eastern Kingdoms.
Thats quite a huge role for "just a back round leader"The Horde Players guide was written before the Burning Crusade, so that doesn't count the Blood Elves.
The Horde in Middle and Southern EK don't really obey her either. Grom'gol, Kargath, Stonard, etc. all report to orcs.
That leaves the Northern EK, which is controlled by the Forsaken. Makes sense that they report to their own queen.
Besides, Bllizard said he will focus on the threat the Horde poses today.What threat? Other than Garrosh, what has the Horde done to threaten the Alliance? The Wrathgate? A tragedy that the Horde did their best to deal with. The Broken Front? In response to Varian's declaration of war.
You have no proof if they even came from the Horde or Alliance, so thus, it can not be a symbol of Horde and Alliance cooraperation.Of course... Those orcs in the Argent Dawn obviously came from the Dark Horde.
/sarcasm
I dare you to justifie th quests in Hillsbrd ordering the experimentation of humans, and the assassination of a Alliance prince because he has somthing those stupied trolls want.
1. Hillsbrad: Reported to Varimathras. RAS has been taken care of. Varimathras is dead. Horde has it under control.
2. Honestly, I don't feel very sympathetic for Galen. His father supported genocide of the orcs and according to Lands in Conflict, Galen is very arrogant and reckless as well. Can't really justify it, but he really is pretty much a minor casualty at this point. Stromgarde is a broken kingdom, and their prince is not a very great guy.
And then there's the fact that it's not even part of the Alliance anymore.
I will give you Terenas and Lothar, they were his mentors that turned him into the great king he is today.
Now tell me, why would you assume they would do different then Varian?Because Lothar thought with his head rather than his juevos, and would understand that there's a bigger threat out there.
Lothar and Terenas were also both great diplomats, which Varian has hardly shown himself to be.
Ahh, yes!
How he ordered the fall of the Alliance interment camps even though the only reason his pathetic life still goes on is because of humans!Camps of abusive soldiers that mistreated the orcs. Camps where his people were penned in like cattle.
His people were enslaved, and he freed them. He's a hero.
What do you want him to do? Just sit back and let his people be killed?
Its about time the Alliance has a leader who is not going to stand by and let the Horde walk all over him.
They will pay for all those years of not caring as humans were draged to labs to be torn to shreads.Like I said:
Don't trust the Horde, but stay on the defensive. Don't team up with the Horde, but don't instigate anything with them either and focus on the real threat.
And use diplomacy the whole way unless the Horde was actually killing the ambassadors.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Varian has been annoucned a genius diplomatJust because you say it, doesn't make it true.
His people were enslaved because they supported his goal to destroy Azeroth's inhabitants because he wanted a world for himself. The guy is a villian.No, in your eyes he's a villian, in the hordes he the man who freed them from the Shadow Council.
Your opinions are not greater then everyone else's Dark.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Besides, Bllizard said he will focus on the threat the Horde poses today.
What threat? Other than Garrosh, what has the Horde done to threaten the Alliance? The Wrathgate? A tragedy that the Horde did their best to deal with. The Broken Front? In response to Varian's declaration of war.
Perhapa it was Sylvanas trying to eliminate the human race?
1: Present a link to show where it says blizzard are trying to show the horde as being a threat.
2: Stop dodging the question.
Don't try this junk, Lothar would be just as mad; he suffered as much as Varian, and the people of Lordaeron helped him as well and are now being torn to shreads.
And there is also the fact that he is not here anymore due to Thrall's hero...
And give it a rest, Varian has been annoucned a genius diplomat. You are simply refusing to belive it.
You mean given the crap you've been posting lately?
Your the only showing a serious amount of denial in how bad a leader and diplomat Varian is. All you did it dodge questions put to you, and reply with one form of other saying 'Varian is Perfect, I know he is so it must be true!'.
The hypocrite who then tells other people to try the other shoe?
Ahh, yes!
How he ordered the faCamps of abusive soldiers that mistreated the orcs. Camps where his people were penned in like cattle.
His people were enslaved, and he freed them. He's a hero.ll of the Alliance interment camps even though the only reason his pathetic life still goes on is because of humans!
His people were enslaved because they supported his goal to destroy Azeroth's inhabitants because he wanted a world for himself. The guy is a villian.
Pitiful.
Doomhammers actions lead to the salvation of the horde it is today, and he took leadership at a time when the locomotive was already at full speed. You call Doomhammer a villian for doing this, and then say Varian is justified in his own actions. Your an even bigger hypocrite then I first thought..
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