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Armor pen Vs. agi
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Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
@pelf and Aadr:
After reading through all of your posts and your sources, I have written a 'for Dummies' summary of ArPen that I was wondering if you could validate please (This truly is not meant to be a 'win the thread' post, I want to make sure my information is correct and present it concisely enough that a newb such as myself might be able to understand it):
First: Calculate Boss Armor (Assume 20% reduction from Sunder and 5% from FF, stacking multiplicatively)
Base: 10643
Sunder Armor: 10643 * 0.8 = 8514.4
Faerie Fire: 8514.4 * 0.95 =
8088.68
Next: Find the 'effectiveness cap' (The smaller value between Armor and (Armor + C) / 3); C is defined for a level 80 player as 15232.5, according to Ghostcrawler:
There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):
If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59);
For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.
The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.
According to research at ElitistJerks, for calculating your ArPen cap, you should use the Level 80 'C' of 15232.5, despite Ghostcrawler's odd wording.
We can use this knowledge to calculate the "Effectiveness" in this situation (the armor amount that ArPen will actually be applied to):
Armor: 8088.68
(Armor+C)/3: (8088.68 + 15232.5) / 3 = 7773.727
Effectiveness Cap: min(8088.68, 7773.727) =
7773.727
This means that to find the amount of armor you actually ignore, you should apply the percentage found in your tooltip to this value, 7773.727. Since the purpose of this 'Cap' is to limit the amount of armor you can reduce, the ArPen cap must be 100.00% -- which will reduce the boss's armor by the entire effectiveness cap of 7773.727 armor.
This table will shows the results of various amounts of ArPen on a level 83 boss with 5x Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire applied.
Required Effective
ArPen% ArPen Rating Boss Armor Dmg.Reduc.%
—————— ———————————— —————————— ———————————
100 1231 315
2.026
90 1108 1092 6.691
80 985 1870 10.933
70 862 2647 14.805
60 739 3424 18.355
50 616 4202 21.621
40 493 4979 24.635
30 370 5757 27.426
20 247 6534 30.018
10 124 7311 32.432
0 0 8089 34.684
This means that with Sunderx5 + FF, the furthest Boss Armor can be reduced to is 315 (2.026% damage reduction). Also note that with more ArPen, each 1 point becomes more and more effective at reducing the damage reduction %.
And finally, to emphasize the "Effectiveness Cap", if Shattering Throw is applied to a non-immune-to-Sunder boss, an additional 20% armor is lost. This would happen in the initial calculation, and result in a Boss Armor of 6470.944. Since this is below the (Armor+C)/3 value of 7234.48, armor penetration % is applied directly to actual Boss Armor, resulting in an effective minimum Boss Armor of 0.
As far as defining Hard and Soft Caps to ArPen, the
Hard Cap is 1231
because that will cause a maximum reduction in Boss Armor, regardless of the situation.
Additional ArPen beyond 1231 will NEVER yield additional DPS.
Additional ArPen rating up to 1231 will ALWAYS yield additional DPS.
In equation form (note that any ArPenRating above 1231 is simply clipped):
ArmorReduction =
where:
Armor is Boss Armor after all reduction debuffs have been applied multiplicatively
Armor = 10643 * (1-ReductionDebuff1) * (1-ReductionDebuff2) * ...
C = 15232.5
Soft Caps should be calculated by subtracting the net effect of all possible +ArPen rating procs, as an example:
The Mjolnir Runestone, despite its tooltip, procs at 665 ArP Rating.
So, the soft cap with this item equipped is 566 .
Effects like FF, Sunder Armor, Shattering throw have no effect on this cap at all, they simply determine the amount of armor your ArPen% can be applied to.
Edits: Formatting and Structure changes as per pelf's advice
Post by
pelf
Oh I saw it....
Grats on those numbers too....was a month later, but grats either way!
Had a lot of bad luck :|. Course I was in the ArP camp all along. Whatever. I'm going to try to get them to try the burn, OT the adds, scorch the water method next week :). No movement at all would be even nicer.
Those numbers seem to line up with numbers I remember reading. Sounds good. If parra wants to take it and plop it into the FAQ, that would be awesome. You should probably copy/paste a few more things into there (like the bit about "as pelf said above" and replace that with the actual bit about the Runestone).
You might reword this part:
If you ever look at your Armor Penetration Rating in the tooltip and see a value greater than 1231, you're over the cap. If you see a value less than 1231, then more ArPenRating means more DPS.
If you can see 1231 on your character sheet then you're probably wearing some really bad gear to get that high on ArP. I suppose you might just leave the whole sentence/paragraph out as it's just restating what was said before. I know how nice it feels to have a nice, casual closing statement, though :).
Also, you could use this character for unbroken lines in \ tables:
— 0x2014 Em Dash (Alt+0151)
If you're really going all out, go grab the Ghostcrawler quotes and the source that Aa whipped out earlier and put those in there. You don't actually define C, I don't see.
EDIT
: Link :
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/16473618356-116-armor-pen-only-giving-66.html
Post by
Aadramelekh
Okay so I got it clear. Armor Penetration is applied to the minimum of the two values: the cap, and the amount of armor on the target after all other modifiers
Furthermore, I took another look at this:
WoWWiki Armor Penetration tables
which sayd among other things that ArP experiences diminishing returns for target armor levels greater than 8317.
As far as I saw from GC's formula, the cap is calculated using the
base
armor value of the target. Which is 10640 for a Raid Boss (lvl 83). C for lvl 83 is 16635. Cap for lvl 83 is 9091 according to this.
If the boss has SA+FF (which stack multiplicatively, OK), it starts with 10640*0.8*0.95 = 8086 armor.
So, Mr.
Heckler
, according to GC, the ArP from player's gear will be applied to the minimum between 9091 and 8086. According to that 'magic' 8371 value, it means that after SA+FF, a boss can be effectively brought to almost 0% damage reduction.
Next issue:If you can see 1231 on your character sheet then you're probably wearing some really bad gear to get that high on ArPNot necessarily.
Using
THIS
gear and having professions like JC and BS (for extra sockets) could yield a total 967 passive ArP rating. Add to that some ArP food and an elixir and we get 1052 ArP rating. Not exactly the 1231 cap, but pretty damn close to it. And as far as you can see, it's a pretty neat gear list, containing all the BiS crap you can get. And it allows for mad trinket combos such as the
Wrathstone
and
Blood of the Old God
(who cares about going over the hit cap in this situation?) The only 'downside' is you don't have 4xT8, just 2xT8. But I can live with that. Admittedly, this gear selection does have a pretty low critical strike rating, but all that ArP... yummm...
In the end, I am happy that I could make Mr.
foleynuts
happy (even though he's a half-as
s
sometimes, I think we have all come to like him for that >_> ) and yes, I am going for ArP now, because I have reached a high enough crit chance to feel comfortable with it.
And I bet everyone agrees that 1052 passive ArP rating is much better than 566 and relying on a trinket with 1.2PPM (like Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone).
Post by
Heckler
I could agree with your assessment that based off of GC's words, you should use Base Armor, and the level 83 C value. The only reason I calculated it as I did was because the EJ.com people who actually went and tested it found that it was not working correctly using the C value of level 83, but exactly correctly when using the C value of level 80. Which also means that the method of using post-debuff armor was providing exactly correct values.
So while I can't say I'm 100% correct, the empirical research at EJ.com supports use of the post-debuff armor value and the level 80 C value when calculating the cap.
Since I didn't see anything about diminishing returns in my research, I'm fully willing to grant that you may be 100% correct about everything you've found.
Post by
241152
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
There are two main issues to be discussed here:
1 - yes, there are some ArP pieces before level 80.
2 - it is not worth gemming for ArP until you have at least 250-300 from your equipped gear alone. ArP needs to be piled up to start having a greater impact than agility.
later edit:
effectiveness of ArP decreases more than the effectiveness of Agility does as less time is spent on target
Not exactly. It is the other way around. For short fights ArP is
better
than Agility, because it greatly improves instant attacks, whereas Agi influences all attacks, but to a smaller degree, and thus needs more time for bleeds to start weighing in the DPS distribution (mainly Rip).
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