WoD: Balanced storyline for both factions?

Postado por Rankkor

He honestly wanted to reclaim lordaeron from the undead, and he fought the legion to take it back while slyvannas turtled like a coward. (It's far more effective to have Garithos and his knights make hit and run attacks, with mortar support than for slyvannas to attack).

You seem to (as always) gloss over the little detail that he was turned into a legion puppet until sylvanas freed him.

He was just as pathetic as Stareye on the War of the Ancients.

Jaina got HER CITY REMOVED FROM EXISTANCE IN ALL TIMELINES

Wrong. The mana bomb just destroyed Theramoore, that whole BS of it being removed from all timelines are fanfic writers cranking up the melodrama. And I'll remind you that 90% of the city was evacuated before the attack even began, as Baine sent word of it days before the army got to the gates.

And as morgrinar said, the city was more than asking for it with its involvement in the war. Those troops that attacked every single horde city on durotar and barrens? those are theramoore troops. Mess with the bull? don't complain when you get the horns.

genn gets HIS COUNTRY TURNED INTO AN UNDEAD WASTE.

As can be seen in the rogue legendary quest (which takes place AFTER the plague-bombing) as well as the horde storyline in Silverpine (which also takes place AFTER that bombing) Gilneas is actually quite fine. The strain used was nowhere near the potency of the one used in southshore, it was just gas, gas that has long since gone inert.

The fact that the alliance briefly retook the city before they were driven back by the forsaken (and then the forsaken were driven back by the black dragonflight) shows how safe it was to live on it. So please, crank down the melodrama.

this contrasted heavily by arthas, who regretted having to abandon various undead too damaged to move.

Yes, a souless death knight was a more caring leader than slyvannas before she hit the banshee queen gig.

That's saying something.

I honestly don't understand your line of reasoning.

You absolutely hate with an inhuman passion the horde, because they nearly killed the survivors of lordaeron, but you worship arthas with the intensity of a twilight fangirl, because........... he actually succeeded in wiping out the country and killed off 99% of its people?

That's some messed up logic right there.

small fries compared to the massacres in gilneas and theramoore.

1: theramoore was evacuated before the battle began. Civilian cassualties were next to non-existant.

2: 90% of gilneans population was turned into worgens. Feral ones at that, only a small few regained their minds, the rest are in bloodfang's pack sniffing each other's crotches.

*Resists urge to rant on how Camp Taurajo was a perfectly valid military target, and the Barrens were once again, a perfectly legitimate action.*

Are you implying theramoore wasn't? that city was just as valid as a military target considering the pivotal factor it played in the alliance's campaign in southern kalimdor.

What was the trigger-happy blighting of the place, i'm suprsied people can even live there. I don't see darnassus blighted nearly to death.

Again, as the horde questline in silverpine shows, and the legendary rogue daggers show, the entire kingdom of gilneas (both city and peninsula) are perfectly safe, no enviromental damage whatsoever was done. They used gas ok? not nuclear waste. Gases become inert after a while. The forsaken learned their lesson from southshore, and used a less potent strain. What's the point of driving the enemy off a territory if you can't use the territory yourself afterward?

The Night Elves are xenophobes who kill things for touching trees

Garithos is a xenophobe who hates things for not being human. You don't seem to have a problem with that.

Postado por Lordplatypus

You seem to (as always) gloss over the little detail that he was turned into a legion puppet until sylvanas freed him.

He was just as pathetic as Stareye on the War of the Ancients.
Mind control is a &*!@#.

For some reason, slyvannas didn't get mind controlled.

Why? Simple, the plot said so.

You absolutely hate with an inhuman passion the horde, because they nearly killed the survivors of lordaeron, but you worship arthas with the intensity of a twilight fangirl, because........... he actually succeeded in wiping out the country and killed off 99% of its people?

A: Arthas wasn't the one who did most of it, that was Ner'zhul, arthas was a souless husk.
B: Even said souless husk was cappable of feeling more empathy than slyvannas.

1: theramoore was evacuated before the battle began. Civilian cassualties were next to non-existant.

2: 90% of gilneans population was turned into worgens. Feral ones at that, only a small few regained their minds, the rest are in bloodfang's pack sniffing each other's crotches.

1: They dropped a nuke on a city aftering making a big show to drag more victims there.

2: Worgens that the undead kill.

Are you implying theramoore wasn't? that city was just as valid as a military target considering the pivotal factor it played in the alliance's campaign in southern kalimdor.

So a Neutral city is a perfectly fine place to attack? Theramoore lets ships through, simple as that.

Various rambling about how it's safe in Gilneas

And yet all that lives there are a few critters.

if it's safe, why doesn't anyone live there?

Postado por Skreeran

Sylvanas let Crowley and his men go, and Arthas wouldn't have.

*does a little victory jig*

Postado por morginar

2: Worgens that the undead kill.
You get to kill ferals by order of Alliance quest givers too. It's like killing beast. Just you can't skinn them anymore.
Sylvanas* didn't get mind controlled
Willpower, she has it.
if it's safe, why doesn't anyone live there?
The front was abandoned, If a gilnean goes there it is suicide. Kinda like eating fish from a lake in the city I live in.
Arthas wasn't the one who did most of it, that was Ner'zhul, arthas was a souless husk.
Even said souless husk was cappable of feeling more empathy than slyvannas.
Ner'Zul gave the order, Arthas didn't object. He acted on own acord. As can be seen when he assults Dalaran and thinks of Jaina.

And that Arthas sees his minions as pawns and little more (Bride out of corpses and taint the river with them for lulz.)

Sylvanas let Crowley and his men go, and Arthas wouldn't have.

*does a little victory jig*

I did the same there. Then I saw southshore. Might work if it was to strangle the supply line for Thalanassian or what the guy that named dk t9 for the boys in blue.

Bit off-topic. But how canon is the leader short stories? Or how canon do you see them?

Postado por Skreeran

No matter what bad stuff Sylvanas has done, she is demonstrably not as bad as post-death Arthas.

Postado por morginar

Postado por Skreeran

No matter what bad stuff Sylvanas is demonstrably not as bad as post-death Arthas.

Arthas died when he put on the crown.

And when he didn't have the sword he was still a duche with the boats and mercs.I was specifically addressing Platypus's statement here:

A: Arthas wasn't the one who did most of it, that was Ner'zhul, arthas was a souless husk.
B: Even said souless husk was cappable of feeling more empathy than slyvannas.

Postado por Adamsm

Everything Arthas did, he did of his own control. He gleefully took a flying leap off the cliff to 'save' his people.

Postado por Rankkor

So a Neutral city is a perfectly fine place to attack? Theramoore lets ships through, simple as that.

neutral by big furry ass.

just about EVERY SINGLE TROOP in kalimdor is from theramoore, they actively attacked horde cities and towns.

You have a funky definition of what "Neutral" means.

Also, just like everything else that you say, we've had this discussion before, EVERYTHING about that city describes it as an ALLIANCE city. Not for nothing it is referred as "the biggest alliance MILITARY presence on the continent"

And according to this interview, the humans of theramore sent their army to attack the horde, and help the alliance. Get it through your head man, Theramore NEVER was neutral, it was an alliance city from the start (if it were neutral, there would be horde races living in it dont you think?). What the city had was a treaty of non-agression with the horde to prevent being obliterated, and it was Theramore who broke it first when they attacked the horde on durotar and the barrens.

Now go ahead and dismiss all of this as "ramblings" that are not canon. Go ahead man. Just do it, we all know you want to.

Mind control is a &*!@#.

For some reason, slyvannas didn't get mind controlled.

Why? Simple, the plot said so

nah, its because he's a bloody idiot.

A: Arthas wasn't the one who did most of it, that was Ner'zhul, arthas was a souless husk.

Right. But when it comes to OTHER people doing crimes while under mind-control (Such as Garona, or Sylvanas) they dont count.

Like I said, messed up logic right there.

2: Worgens that the undead kill.

So? they're mindless beasts that I'll remind you, the alliance also kills by the truckloads. Half the quests in the vanilla-version of duskwood were precisely about killing worgens and even skinning them of their fur. Ditto for 50% of the alliance quests in Grizzly Hills.

And yet all that lives there are a few critters.

if it's safe, why doesn't anyone live there?

I'll ignore how you basically dismiss all my VERY VALID POINTS about Gilneas as simple "ramblings" and I'll respond your question.

Why does nobody lives there? hellow? BIG FRIGGING WAR RINGS A BELL? The reason nobody lives in gilneas is because its a war front between the forsaken and the seventh legion who are fighting over the peninsula and thus make the zone incredibly unstable and dangerous to live in. Would you like to live right on the border between north and south korea? I don't think so.

Again, I ask of you, if the zone was a toxic wasteland, then why were there alliance troops without gasmasks on the city during all of these quests? or the fact that THE ENTIRE PENINSULA, EVERY SINGLE SQUARE INCH is full of worgens on this quest?

And not only that, but also plenty of humans and a dragon during this quest?

You know, its funny how EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of the debates you have with either me, or anyone else for that matter always boil down to the same basic formula: You proclaim a completely asinine argument (Garithos was a noble hero, Arthas is better than jesus, Sunreavers are guilty and deserve to be killed down to the last man, the duel between Lothar and Doomhammer wasn't canon Gilneas is an undead wasteland equal or worse than Eastern Plaguelands, Theramoore was a neutral city, etc etc) then the people who oppose your opinion offer very hard concrete evidence that proves you wrong (such as books, quests, quotes, interviews with the makers of the frigging game, and more) and you basically dismiss everything and everyone with a "meh, that's not canon, why? because I say so. I'm right, you're wrong. End of story"

It is making me question just how pointless it is to debate with you if when back into a corner you withdraw to your own fantasy land, where everyone that isn't a human and isn't alliance needs to die by fire.

Postado por 781960

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Postado por Lordplatypus

I'm gonna stop quoting, just assume each paragraph replies to one of your replies.

You star off with a typo. Cute.
Lets not forget establishing a route to Kalimdor is a perfectly logical and reasonable action.
Garrosh took it as war because he, and the rest of the horde thinks it's perfectly fine to do so.

So a military genius who actually fought his way THROUGH lordaeron to the other end before being mind controled is an idiot?

Slyvannas was still in perfect control of her actions, and so were the orcs, they were made angrier and less logical yes, but that's comparable to being drunk. If a bunch of people commit murder while drunk do they go to jail? Yes. Arthas on the other hand, was a completely soulless husk when he returned.
There's a massive difference.

The worgen killed there were just that, mindless beasts who brought it on themselves. On the other hand, the new worgen are living beings. It's like comparing the water elementals a mage summons to a real water elemental.

Now lets not forget only a few critters, there's no larger animals like wolves because they died.
Understood? Now, GIlneas is on the far end of it's land, not all that close to the warzone, yet NO ONE tries to rebuild. Why? because staying there longer means being exposed to more lasting aftereffects. You can repeatedly claim different, but the COMPLETE AND TOTAL abandonment speaks for itself.

Oh and it's always the same, I make a perfectly logical arguement, your fanboyist insanity causes you to counter with all the rationality of a man who thinks god was a little green man who caused 9/11 after creating the world because we don't believe in him anymore.

You can pretend your inane arguements are even remotely sane, but they're not.

Take off those horde-tinted glasses and see the real world.

Horde fanboyism can't beat facts, and you know it, deep down.

Postado por RipperGand

This is pretty much the end of the thread. I would really love to get my hands on the goggles the alliance players wear, the ones that allow them to ignore what's actually happened and then replace it with their own story.

All in all it's almost humorous how things have went. You have most of the game where it's pretty Alliance-centric and the Horde is doing poop quests and we get one expansion where we get too look up to our leader as a hero and all of a sudden Alliance players start complaining about Thrall when he was no different than Hobo Jesus back in Wrath. They complain so much that Blizzard pretty much turns the Horde into villains and our leader into a raid boss and then they complain about that! I don't think the insanely vocal group of Alliance players will be happy until the Horde is removed as a playable faction and delegated to being loot pinatas.

Are you actually that idiotic that you only read that post, in a thread that extends to 4 pages? Are you actually enough of a hypocrite to say Alliance players ignore what happens, and then you do it yourself? Especially after I repeated myself in 3 posts saying I'm neutral and that I'm seeing this from the point of a reader?

Frankly, I started this thread peacefully and pointing out facts, only to see the ***ing Horde fanbase come by and spark arguments, second-person accusations and to be whiny, cocky and arrogant. I'm not on the Alliance side, but after seeing some of the replies here, I'm happy I main a human as of now.

Oh and it's always the same, I make a perfectly logical arguement, your fanboyist insanity causes you to counter with all the rationality of a man who thinks god was a little green man who caused 9/11 after creating the world because we don't believe in him anymore.

You cannot expect a neutral argument with a religious or atheist fanatic. Just the same way you cannot expect a neutral argument with someone who has this on their profile:

"Horde loyalist forever, long live Thrall, long live the Horde, may we never become slaves to neither Legion, Humans or our own inner demons."

Fanatics will be fanatics, and will ragefully stand by their cause no matter what. Kinda matches Garrosh, doesn't it?

If a moderator is seeing this, lock the thread please. It turned into a mediocre drama fest and far from the logical debate I was hoping to get.

Postado por Rankkor

great, so it went into bashing me when you run out of ideas. same ol same ol.

You star off with a typo. Cute.

What typo? funky is an actual word.

Lets not forget establishing a route to Kalimdor is a perfectly logical and reasonable action.

I never said it was unreasonable or unlogical, however, it removed any argument for neutrality off the city the moment their troops attacked horde bases and settlements. Every single human unit in the barrens wears a theramoore tabard, and several of them attacked before the cataclysm hit.

Garrosh took it as war because he, and the rest of the horde thinks it's perfectly fine to do so.

Nope, they took it as war when armed military units attacked their forces AND THEIR CIVILIANS.

So a military genius who actually fought his way THROUGH lordaeron to the other end before being mind controled is an idiot?

Nope, a military xenophobe who fought his way through enemy lines without backup because he hates every non-human in the alliance and getting mindcontrolled right at the start of the front lines IS in every single way, an idiot

The worgen killed there were just that, mindless beasts who brought it on themselves. On the other hand, the new worgen are living beings. It's like comparing the water elementals a mage summons to a real water elemental.

Nope. The new worgen are just like the old worgen, only those who drink the potion of Krenas, or undergo the moon ritual like crowley regain their mind. And most didn't. There's a reason crowley begged Ivar Bloodfang to lend his aid, because most worgens are in his pack and barely even act human anymore.

Now lets not forget only a few critters, there's no larger animals like wolves because they died.

ohh really?

Here are some foxes

Here are some mastiffs

Here are some rams and sheeps

Here is AN ENTIRE BATALLION OF STORMWIND HUMANS

Here is AN ENTIRE BATALLION OF GILNEAN WORGENS

ohh and before you say those were critters, STOP RIGHT THERE. A critter is a little small lvl 1 animal, like squirrels, or bunnies.

Here are some squirrels

My god. Look at that lush fauna. They look so dead. And those poor humans choking to death, And those poor wolfies asphyxiating. I'm sorry for doubting you........ *double-checks images* OH they're actually fine.

What were you saying about toxic environment where nothing lives?

Understood? Now, GIlneas is on the far end of it's land, not all that close to the warzone

Right. That's why the peninsula between the city and silverpine is a frigging battleground.

yet NO ONE tries to rebuild. Why? because staying there longer means being exposed to more lasting aftereffects.

Nope, its because staying there longer means suffering the same fate as these guys. Here's a pro tip if you ever decide to be a settler: if you're gonna build a new home in a war zone, wait until AFTER one side defeats the other and THEN build.

Otherwise getting killed in the cross-fire is highly likely to be your fate.

You can repeatedly claim different, but the COMPLETE AND TOTAL abandonment speaks for itself.

Right, complete and total abandonment.

Look at how empty those streets are wow, rogues must have laughed their way during that quest.

I mean just look at this alliance commander, standing right in the center of the city with these troops. Right at ground zero too. Yep, completely and totally abandoned.

Here's a tip: Abandoned is when its actualy empty.

I make a perfectly logical arguement

No, you make an argument that is backed up by NOTHING but your imagination.

your fanboyist insanity causes you to counter with all the rationality of a man who thinks god was a little green man who caused 9/11 after creating the world because we don't believe in him anymore.

No, I respond by quoting back to you all the many quests, books, interviews with the devs, and expanded universe material that proves you wrong. Which you ignore.

Horde fanboyism can't beat facts, and you know it, deep down.

nah, my dedication can't beat someone who ignores everything that isn't fitting their interpretation of events. Therefore I take my leave.

You cannot expect a neutral argument with a religious or atheist fanatic. Just the same way you cannot expect a neutral argument with someone who has this on their profile:

"Horde loyalist forever, long live Thrall, long live the Horde, may we never become slaves to neither Legion, Humans or our own inner demons."

Fanatics will be fanatics, and will ragefully stand by their cause no matter what. Kinda matches Garrosh, doesn't it?

Ohh personally attacking me? Classy.

Postado por morginar

Actualy Rankkor, the ultimate visual guide that was relesed resently states that after the silverpine questline Gilneas was abandoned and it was a part of the agreement Sylvanas had with Crowley.

Mening there has not been any activity in Gilneas. Possibly with the exeption of the Black dragonflight.

Postado por Rankkor

Did she? Well, there goes the whole "backstabbing maniac" if she made an agreement and actually kept her word long after the threat was neutralized.

But still, Gilneas is not a radioactive wasteland. The flora and fauna are just fine, and the capital city has been occupied by humans, forsaken, mercenaries and black dragons. Showing that its perfectly safe to inhabit it. If the gilnean citizens haven't returned there, then its either due to fear of the forsaken going back on their word, or the simpler explanation that worgens have had no new lore writen for the past 2 years.

Postado por Lordplatypus

no new lore writen for the past 2 years.

Sadly, alliance races get new lore 4 expansions late.

What typo? funky is an actual word.

neutral BY big furry ass.
Sorry if that was too subtle.

.
I never said it was unreasonable or unlogical, however, it removed any argument for neutrality off the city the moment their troops attacked horde bases and settlements. Every single human unit in the barrens wears a theramoore tabard, and several of them attacked before the cataclysm hit.
So A: a road is a sign of war and B: The horde claims all of kalimdor and alliance soldiers existing in it is bad. Furthermore, the fact that in any "Peace" during Wow, everyone's still trying to kill eachother on a smaller scale.

Nope, they took it as war when armed military units attacked their forces AND THEIR CIVILIANS.

Oh look, another camp legitimatetargetajo reference.

My god. Look at that lush fauna. They look so dead. And those poor humans choking to death, And those poor wolfies asphyxiating. I'm sorry for doubting you........ *double-checks images* OH they're actually fine.

What were you saying about toxic environment where nothing lives?

There are animals seemingly living fine in Chernoboyl, but no human settlement.

Yes, Gilneas is Chernoboyl.

Right. That's why the peninsula between the city and silverpine is a frigging battleground.

So why are there horde in silverpine.

Look at how empty those streets are wow, rogues must have laughed their way during that quest.

I mean just look at this alliance commander, standing right in the center of the city with these troops. Right at ground zero too. Yep, completely and totally abandoned.

Here's a tip: Abandoned is when its actualy empty.

Oh yes, because there were defnitely tons of civilians there.

Nope, its because staying there longer means suffering the same fate as these guys. Here's a pro tip if you ever decide to be a settler: if you're gonna build a new home in a war zone, wait until AFTER one side defeats the other and THEN build.

Otherwise getting killed in the cross-fire is highly likely to be your fate.
So you're saying it's stupid and evil for one side to send settlers but perfectly fine for the other to massacre them. The forsaken commit this kind of crime no matter where you are.

Dun Morough and Stormwind only have their superior military to ward off slyvanna's lackeys trying to gas them, everyone else in any part of EK is screwed.

No, you make an argument that is backed up by NOTHING but your imagination.
Get off your mushrooms and look at the facts.

No, I respond by quoting back to you all the many quests, books, interviews with the devs, and expanded universe material that proves you wrong. Which you ignore.
Oh yes, nit-picking and taking out of context.

Michael Moore would be proud.

nah, my dedication can't beat someone who ignores everything that isn't fitting their interpretation of events. Therefore I take my leave.

So your obessive love for everything horde can't beat someone who ignores lies and sees the truth.

Ok, go away now.

Ohh personally attacking me? Classy.
Facts aren't attacks.

Postado por Rankkor

dude, whatever you say. I have better ways to invest time. Believe what you want.

Postado por Lordplatypus

isn't it traditional for this back-and-forth ranting and raving to last atleast 5 pages?

Postado por 781960

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Postado por Rankkor

isn't it traditional for this back-and-forth ranting and raving to last atleast 5 pages?

Its pointless to debate with a guy who says 2 entire books are not canon just because his favorite character gets his ass kicked (Tides of Darkness is canon, as is lothar's defeat at the hands of doomhammer, regardless of how bad it hurts)

its pointless to debate a guy who says there's not a single animal alive in gilneans and when shown proof that there are, retorts "well, there' animals in chernobyl but no humans"

its pointless to debate a guy who says "there's nobody alive in gilneas" and when shown a massive mercenary army, a stormwind army, and a worgen army, all of them very much alive simply retorts "well, none are civilians"

Its pointless to debate a guy who says invading 4 bases, 3 towns, and attacking a faction on 5 different warfronts is "building a road"

Its pointless to debate a guy who resorts to ad hominem under the justification that "its just stating the facts" when he himself dismisses Developer Interviews that clearly state Thearmore was not neutral, Dismisses 2 books just because he doesn't like what they say, dismisses quests when he doesn't like what they show, and dismisses everything that isn't full agreement as "biased fanboyism".

Seriously, its the pinnacle of hypocrisy to call me a blind fanatic, when it is YOU who dismissed an entire book as non canon just for the simple fact that a character you like was defeated fair and square by an orc in one-on-one combat.

Any argument with you is doomed to endless loops of back and forth, and frankly i'm tired of it. You clearly don't play the same game everyone else does, so why bother? Believe what you want.

WoD: Balanced storyline for both factions?

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