Topic of the Week 6/30 - PVP Ethics & Griefing

Postado por Arideni

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Welcome to this week's "Topic of the Week!" This week, we're wrapping up a two-part series which has dealt with personal values from real life & how they we implement those in-game.

Much of our time online is spent with our allies, but we must also deal with "the opposing faction" almost everyday. Whether we are inside Shattrath City or questing in Hillsbrad Fields, most players have seen a member of the opposite faction by level 30. The question is "What do you do when you see 'the enemy' before you?"

One's answer to that question relies heavily on the type of server played on. On PVE servers, unless the players are flagged, neither can really attack the other. PVP servers are different in that any player within an enemy territory or contested zone may be attacked, and may attack, any other player of the opposite faction. It's a lot more realistic, which is why many players picked that option when they started playing the game.

So, since PVE servers really do not have much of a problem in this area, we are left with the PVP servers, where players can run rampant (if they choose) & pillage the enemy's towns as long as they wish. That brings up the issue of griefing.

Griefing is the malicious, intentional disruption of another player's gameplay experience, usually repetitive. It could consist of corpse camping, killing or stealing quest objectives, or any other negatively impacting consequence resulting from the "griefer's" actions. It has been documented in other online games that griefers are sometimes contracted & paid money by upset players in order to ruin the experience of someone else, presumably one who "deserved" it.

Still, the most common form of griefer is the one who simply wants revenge. So-and-so did this to a player, so the upset player will now spend 100% of their time & effort making sure the rude player doesn't make any progress either.

So I have a few thoughts this week, which most seem to like replying to, so here they are:

So when playing on a PVP server, how often do you experience a "griefer"?
Have you ever tried to exact revenge or camp someone, even if they deserved it?
How are your experiences of players on PVE servers different than those of PVP servers?
Is corpse camping really that big of an issue?
If a player doesn't Resurrect, they cannot be killed repeatedly. So, indirectly the player him/herself is the cause of their own frustrations, no?
Ganking is an intentional aspect of PVP servers. Why does it frustrate <people> so much?

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For a complete history of the TOTW series, click here.

Postado por 109094

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Postado por dpoyesac

With the Midsummer's Fire Festival currently going on I've been ganked more in the past week (and in all zones too, not just Hillsbrad or STV -- who gets ganked in the Stonetalon Mountains?) than in all my time leveling on a PvP server previously. But, even though it's really annoying to finally get all the buffs going only to have an Alliance 70 come up to desecrate the flame and decide 'Hey! I'll just one-shot this little rogue too!', I have yet to be actually griefed. Griefing, while it happens, seems to be comparatively rare.

I think some definitions are in order: 'ganking' usually means killing a player when that player has no real chance to defend or to respond. If you come up on a ?? player and they crit you for 1800, you've been ganked. 'Griefing' is more than that: when the 70 mage spends an hour blowing up every little Hordie trying to kill yetis for Helcular's Rod and killing the yetis to make sure no one can do the quest, that's griefing.

I hate griefing. I really do -- it's outrageous, it's wrong, it's childish, it reflects poorly on the moral character and basic human decency of the person doing it. Anyone who griefs in-game would pull the wings off flies and kick little puppies. They should be denied the right to vote or to have children. But... I would hate to see it removed from the game.

Truth is, the ever-present possibility of griefing (~~or just the random gank in general~~) makes the game that much more exciting and interesting. It adds another challenge to the game, but it's not just the challenge of out-thinking the AI of mobs or defeating the design challenges of Blizz: it's the challenge of going up against someone or something that is actively looking to stop me and has the power to do it. It means that I can't play this game mindlessly, since I have to pay attention all the time. It means I explore overlooked portions of zones, since I can't farm or grind close to the road. It makes me efficient, since time wasted is time for that 70 to sneak up and undo all my work.

Don't get me wrong: griefing sucks. But the constant possibility of griefing makes me a better player.

And here's the crazy thing: it's griefing and not just the random ganking that adds this dimension to the game. The random gank is just that: random. With my crummy hardware and low video settings a 70 on a 100% mount can get into range and start blowing me up before they appear on my screen. There is nothing I can do about 'em except learn the most efficient route for corpse runs.

But griefers are predictable, since I know what they want: to kill me over and over and ruin my day. Since I know what they want I can out-think 'em. And that's how you can beat 'em, no matter what the level difference is.

So what about the ethics of griefing? Well, that's the really weird part. Griefing is ethically wrong -- we can all agree on that. (Except for the griefers themselves, probably.) But I think the overall existence of griefing is good, because it makes the game better.

Ironic, huh?

(edited for consistency... and spelling)

Postado por inmediasres

So when playing on a PVP server, how often do you experience a "griefer"?
Before playing rogue, fairly often. Particular pain is ganking at meeting stone.
Have you ever tried to exact revenge or camp someone, even if they deserved it?
If camped/ganked, I camp them if I have the time and if I'm in a mood. Not sure if that was the question.
How are your experiences of players on PVE servers different than those of PVP servers?
I have limited experience on PvE servers, but I saw more whining and less persistency on PvE servers.
Is corpse camping really that big of an issue?
Not really. I usually relog to my bank and check mail/AH/whatever. Or do some RL thing. While I'm done, they are gone.
If a player doesn't Resurrect, they cannot be killed repeatedly. So, indirectly the player him/herself is the cause of their own frustrations, no?
Agree. Check previous entry.
Ganking is an intentional aspect of PVP servers. Why does it frustrate <people> so much?
Many players rolled on PvP servers because of RL friends or by recommendation, and they have no desire to reroll. Also, PvE progress is usually better on PvP servers, so people join even if they have no desire in PvP. Many players on PvP servers never entered BG with some of their characters. And in the middle of "accomplishing" something in PvE, someone ganks them. Repeatedly. I can see them slamming the keyboard. I know I did a few times...

Once I started to attack players in world PvP with no reason (I wish I started it waaaay before) I felt less frustrated about being ganked.

Postado por 132319

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Postado por nismotune

* So when playing on a PVP server, how often do you experience a "griefer"?

At least once a day, whether it is camping or people killing the Aldor quest guy in shatt. (or getting him banished)

* Have you ever tried to exact revenge or camp someone, even if they deserved it?

If i'm killed once fairly then i usually let it go but if they kill me multiple times or attack me when i'm below 50% fighting mobs... well then i make sure to camp them until they either log off or call in more friends than i have.

I don't camp people on a regular basis only when the "deserve it" :)

* How are your experiences of players on PVE servers different than those of PVP servers?

N/A

*Is corpse camping really that big of an issue?

It bugs the hell out of me when i'm lvling an alt but if i'm on my main i might keep popping up to keep them interested until backup arrives.

*If a player doesn't Resurrect, they cannot be killed repeatedly. So, indirectly the player him/herself is the cause of their own frustrations, no?

yes and no, you can always take a break and play an alt or log off. But then again, there are sometimes i have to work around my raid schedule and such so i only have limited time to do daily quests or lvl my alts.

*Ganking is an intentional aspect of PVP servers. Why does it frustrate <people> so much?

I don't find ganking to be frustrating unless they camp me. i've thrown a keyboard before lol but since i bought my logitech i have learned to just ALT+F4 and go play guitar or something.

getting ganked doesn't annoy me nearly as much as when lvl 12+ of the same faction come to lowbie areas and duel spam people that are lvl 1-4 then call you names cause you didn't waste your time building their ego (specially warlocks with pets, yes i'm talking to you linkia-altar of storms)

edited for language

Postado por 158584

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Postado por 115703

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Postado por dpoyesac

If a player doesn't Resurrect, they cannot be killed repeatedly. So, indirectly the player him/herself is the cause of their own frustrations, no?

This is akin to blaming a woman for her own rape because she had the audacity to wear something that made her attractive. Idiotic, flawed logic.

I don't buy this. Think of these two situations:

Guy puts on a Grateful Dead t-shirt and walks down the road. Someone comes up and punches 'em in the head.
Guy puts on a Grateful Dead t-shirt and walks into a punk-rock bar. Someone comes up and punches 'em in the head.

In the first situation I think what happened really sucks -- no one should just get punched on the street. There is a sense that streets (at least in the towns I live in!) are safe places, free from random violence. In the second situation I have no sympathy at all for the guy. None. If he says "But I've never been to a punk-rock bar before!" my response is along the lines of "And I hope you learned a valuable life lesson!"

Rezzing over and over when you know that ?? hunter in S3 gear is camping you is closer to the second situation than the first. It's like the old joke:

Guy is bashing his head against the wall until it bleeds. Someone asks him why; he says "'Cos it'll feel so good when I stop."

Edited to add:

I'm not trying to say that anyone who gets camped should sit down & shut up because it's all their own d@mn fault, but I am saying that we should all know corpse camping is a two way street. The corpse-camper probably isn't suddenly going to be struck by a bout of maturity, so the onus for changing the situation is on the camp-ee.

(and my second example is based on a real life buddy.)

Postado por 115703

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Postado por inmediasres

The burden for the ganking/camping lies solely on the one doing the killing. To suggest otherwise is asinine.

What burden? When I gank, I don't feel any.

Postado por dpoyesac

I wondered who would bring the "situational setting" card into play.

Is the woman who dresses attractively and goes to a club to dance responsible for getting raped at the end of the night?

No.

Is the level 26 WoW noobie questing in his LEVEL APPROPRIATE zone guilty of getting ganked, and consequently camped?

Again, the answer is no.

Your argument would hold weight if a lower level were somewhere he didn't belong. It's a strawman defense within WoW, however, because the victims of this are not doing anything wrong, and are not in an inappropriate area. The burden for the ganking/camping lies solely on the one doing the killing. To suggest otherwise is asinine.

I think we are talking about different things here. Maybe my story masked what I was getting at, but it was the first thing that popped into my head.

I'm not talking about who is responsible for griefing, or who is guilty. We both know who is responsible and who is guilty: the griefer. The moral burden lies wholly on their shoulders.

I am just saying that the campee is the one with the power to make the camping stop, by walking away, leveling an alt, washing the dishes, whatever. This is my answer to the specific question asked in the original post:

If a player doesn't Resurrect, they cannot be killed repeatedly. So, indirectly the player him/herself is the cause of their own frustrations, no?

Notice the question is about the cause of their frustrations, not about the moral responsibility or ethical burden. You are trying to ding me for answering a question that wasn't asked.

Finally: I think it's a bit distasteful to equate -- in any way -- sexual violence with actions in a video game. (This is where my post might have been misleading -- it was about a bar fight, after all.) A level 26 is being camped? They can walk away. Their evening is wasted. Soooo sad. A woman is being assaulted? Can she turn off Warcraft and go play Grand Theft Auto instead?

These things aren't anywhere close to being equivalent.

Postado por Arideni

This post is to swing the discussion back towards the actual topic. If you wish to argue whether or not provacative clothing escalates risk or gives moral excuse to perverts, go over to the Randomness forums (discussions there will also be moderated).
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Personally, I feel ganking is where half the fun is at. But what exactly is a gank? I consider ganking to be any attacking of another player(s) by a member(s) of the opposing faction at an an undesired time or place regardless of conditionals such as health, quest objectives, etc. Ganking is what PVP servers are all about — griefing is not.

A player clearing creatures in Stonetalon Mountains trying to reach a quest creature in a cave, with only 60% health, is attacked by a similar level player & killed (gank). A player traveling to the Scarlet Monastery via Hillsbrad Fields is attacked by a level 70 (gank). A player Mind Controls the friend of an enemy, forcing the friend to kill his comrade (gank, also "cross-teaming," lol).

What is your definition of "gank"? We must sometimes answer this question before making a statement. I really should have just extended this into a third TOTW, but I think the point is clear.

Postado por 91244

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Postado por 103712

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Postado por inmediasres

Postado por 115703

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Postado por dpoyesac

Calling this all an ethical or moral issue is pure stupidity in every sense as well. I mean, do I need to stress it again: this is a game, they are enemy soldiers.

If you can't handle playing a game like this without being reduced to tears, go enjoy a game like Hello Kitty: Island Adventure. This is what this game is about.

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate, even though I mostly agree with this statement. (I could do without the condescension. Read your Greek historians, like Thucydides: real soldiers respect and honor their opponents rather than calling them stupid.)

"This is a game." But it's not a FPS, or RTS, or this or that, it's an open-ended MMO. Which means there is no one way to play the game -- what counts as playing and winning depends on what the player wants to do.

"This is what this game is about." You seem to be saying that since the opposing faction is the enemy, everyone ought to want to kill em, or to expect to be killed by 'em. There is only one way to play the game, and they aren't playing the game right if they don't want to play the way you think they should play.

So we have two incompatible things: an open-ended MMO, and Nefarion's strict criteria for what people ought to do. One says players are free to enjoy the game how they wish, the other says there is only one way to play.

I think the burden of proof is on you, then: What qualifications exactly do you have to tell others what they ought to be doing?

(Edited to add:)

I play on a PvP server. I almost never initiate PvP. I'll help Alliance with quests, and I'll help 'em if they pulled too many mobs. I'll /hug and /pat NE druids when they are cats. This is just how I choose to play, and I don't expect anyone else (especially those NE druids!) to play the same way. Where, exactly, is it written in stone that this is the wrong way to play?

Postado por adamb10

So when playing on a PVP server, how often do you experience a "griefer"?
I play on a PvP server and I will get ganked occasionally, being as I'm 70 though, I hardly get camped.

Have you ever tried to exact revenge or camp someone, even if they deserved it?
Yep, often if they killed me before I'll go grab some friends and kill them and sit on there corpse. It's hell to pay for wasting my time.

How are your experiences of players on PVE servers different than those of PVP servers?
Never played on a PvE server however it's probobly much more enjoyable to level on them.

Is corpse camping really that big of an issue?
Not really, if the camper wants to waste their time camping a lowbie then go do it.

If a player doesn't Resurrect, they cannot be killed repeatedly. So, indirectly the player him/herself is the cause of their own frustrations, no?
If you're getting camped, I'd wait it out. Usually the person camping you will grow bored and leave.

Ganking is an intentional aspect of PVP servers. Why does it frustrate <people> so much?
The time people are walking back to there corpse they could instead be questing and earning gold/levels. Ultimately it's a time waster.

Postado por 169256

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Topic of the Week 6/30 - PVP Ethics & Griefing

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