Can of Worms: Should young women stop dressing so 'slutty'?

Postado por Jubilee

Yes, I personally believe so. Because I believe there is an objective ethical standard governing what a parent allows into a child's body. My views aren't really the issue, though, I voted yes because I believe that social norms create ethical norms.

Postado por MyTie

Not at all, vlklngboy. Young people tend to do what is popular in society. If everyone made it known that $%^&ty dressing wasn't ok, a lot of young girls wouldn't dress so !@#$ty. When people make the point that not only is it not ok to tell them what to do, but that no judgment will be made as to what they should or shouldn't do, then it is an encouragement to them to dress inappropriately. Polls like these aren't useless, in that they give the opportunity to show them it isn't ok. This one is a failure, obviously.

Postado por Jubilee

When people make the point that not only is it not ok to tell them what to do, but that no judgment will be made as to what they should or shouldn't do, then it is an encouragement to them to dress inappropriately.
Going back to my music example, it should be clear that I'm not going to heinously murder if you choose country music. Am I therefore encouraging you to choose country music?
Just because you're making a point not to discourage something doesn't mean you are encouraging it. My dad let me pick out my first cell phone. Was he encouraging any particular choice by not denying it to me? Not a all, he was putting the choice completely in my hands.

Postado por 348028

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Postado por MyTie

Music is neutral and subjective. Are you saying that the choice of clothes is neutral and subjective?

Postado por 240140

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Postado por Jubilee

Music is neutral and subjective. Are you saying that the choice of clothes is neutral and subjective?

I'm saying some people believe that, yes.

Postado por MyTie

Music is neutral and subjective. Are you saying that the choice of clothes is neutral and subjective?

I'm saying some people believe that, yes.

Some people are wrong.

Choice of clothes is not netural, and neither is music for that matter. Putting on some heavy rap music that is explaining how to kill people if they don't sleep with you or do drugs is bad mkay. A 14 year old girl wearing a push up bra, mid rif shirt, and a mini skirt with pump heels is bad mkay.

Telling ^&*!ty dressed girls that that is neutral is irresponsible. It would be like telling my daughter that smoking is neutral. IT ISN'T NEUTRAL. I put that in all caps for you. It's important.

Postado por 348028

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Postado por Jubilee

Choice of clothes is not netural, and neither is music for that matter. Putting on some heavy rap music that is explaining how to kill people if they don't sleep with you or do drugs is bad mkay. A 14 year old girl wearing a push up bra, mid rif shirt, and a mini skirt with pump heels is bad mkay.

Telling ^&*!ty dressed girls that that is neutral is irresponsible. It would be like telling my daughter that smoking is neutral. IT ISN'T NEUTRAL. I put that in all caps for you. It's important.

And that's your belief and you're perfectly welcome to argue for it. But don't just dismiss other peoples beliefs off-hand just because they disagree with you. That's probably why you experience hostility like you were talking about in the Recycle Bin earlier.
And for the last time, I'm not talking about little girls. I'm talking about legally independent women. The more you treat me like some heinous person for harming children, the less I'm inclined to continue this discussion.
Finally I know a perfect ethical and upstanding nudist family. They are perfectly comfortable in their choice of lifestyle, and their kids are perfectly fine. That's the limit of my anecdotal evidence. So if you'd like to provide some evidence that shows that to be an exception, I'm willing to listen.

Postado por MyTie

Why is it "bad"? If she wants to send those kinds of signals with her clothes, then she should be allowed to, if she feels comfortable and confident wearing those types of clothes she should be encouraged, don't come here waving a moral flag claiming that girls should cover up -.-'

She should be allowed to, if she is over 18. She still shouldn't, though. Dressing in a way that communicates sexuality communicates that the value of the woman is the lowest common denominator: physical.And that's your belief and you're perfectly welcome to argue for it. But don't just dismiss other peoples beliefs off-hand just because they disagree with you. That's probably why you experience hostility like you were talking about in the Recycle Bin earlier.
And for the last time, I'm not talking about little girls. I'm talking about legally independent women. The more you treat me like some heinous person for harming children, the less I'm inclined to continue this discussion.
Finally I know a perfect ethical and upstanding nudist family. They are perfectly comfortable in their choice of lifestyle, and their kids are perfectly fine. That's the limit of my anecdotal evidence. So if you'd like to provide some evidence that shows that to be an exception, I'm willing to listen.
Not only is mental health of little girls dressed sexually affected, but 'young' women who are adults are who these little girls look up to. Here are some studies on the psychology of sexualized women's clothing.
American Psychological Association
NYU Child Study Center
Another NYU Child Study Article
Capital University
Psychology of Women Quarterly
Psychology Today
(That is only 6, but there are dozens if you want to read more)

Postado por 348028

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Postado por Azazel

As long as they use rubbers anyway.

Postado por Jubilee

I quickly read through those articles and every single one that I could see said that the solution is to talk to and educate your kids, and just do a better job of raising them. And I would heartily agree with that assessment. When parents let the tv raise their kids, of course the kids are going to grow up with problems, whether there are %^&*tily dressed women on the tv or not.
Secondly, the problem is in fact exactly what you just said: the sexualization of women. In fact that issue isn't reliant on clothes. You know how a nudist family can be perfectly well functioning? Because nudity is not the same thing as sexualization. If one cannot raise their children with a correct understanding of the beauty of the human body and the role of men and women, then one shouldn't try to put the blame on society. Maybe if parents did not get all uppity about women showing skin, then children wouldn't get the wrong ideas.
As a final point, I'd ask you, should women be allowed to wear pants? At one point that would have been considered *!@#ty. If you agree that women can wear pants now, then what changed?
It's funny that when it comes down to this issue, I actually take more offense at this type of reverse-chauvinism, than actual chauvinism. It feels like a perverted chivalry. Most women don't want to be protected from "the evil gawking sex-crazed man." And there is no need for you to go out of your way to "cover us up." With men it always seems to be one of two extremes, either "she's bangable" or "she's a sinner!" Why does it all have to be about us in the first place? Neither one is how we want to be treated.

Postado por MyTie

I'm not trying to protect women in some sort of knight in shining armor type thing. You see, I've got a daughter. It's more like the whole "Should my daughter wear hyper sexual clothes?" My answer is gonna be 'no', and for the same reasons that it applies to women everywhere. There is more to a woman than just sex. Sex isn't something to be cheapened down to just an every day occurance (that is where I differ from skull in his "most natural thing ever", as if having sex is the equivilant of sneezing). Finally, it isn't healthy to dress like you want everybody to see your boobs, and then walk around like everything is great.

There is something very dangerous in telling other people what they should and shouldn't do when the topic is a gray area. This 'how young girls dress' is definitely a gray area. However, I believe that the issue is to one side of the line more so than the other. I've seen enough women dressed like trash become trash that I've wised up to the game. I'm not going to sway on the issue. If you believe differently, I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion, and I can respectfully disagree. However, my respectful disagreement will be one of staunch disagreement where I insist on your error. If we can amicably part at that point, then we'll be better people for it.

Lastly, I'll address the nudist topic (before I forget). I don't have an opinion on nudism. Never really thought about it. I'm talking about the sexualization of young girls. I believe that they are different topics, though.

Postado por Jubilee

There is more to a woman than just sex. Sex isn't something to be cheapened down to just an every day occurance (that is where I differ from skull in his "most natural thing ever", as if having sex is the equivilant of sneezing). Finally, it isn't healthy to dress like you want everybody to see your boobs, and then walk around like everything is great.
If there is so much more to us than sex, then why is what we do with out sexuality such a big deal? We're not so scared of our sexuality. We want it to be an integral part of our lives. Why is there are large portion of men who feel it's their duty to save the world from our boobs? Yes, I completely 100% believe that there are social norms that need to be followed, but I think it ends there. Why is it unhealthy for me to be comfortable with my body enough to not be ashamed of it? My sexuality is a part of who I am.

There is something very dangerous in telling other people what they should and shouldn't do when the topic is a gray area. This 'how young girls dress' is definitely a gray area. However, I believe that the issue is to one side of the line more so than the other. I've seen enough women dressed like trash become trash that I've wised up to the game. I'm not going to sway on the issue. If you believe differently, I can see how you would arrive at that conclusion, and I can respectfully disagree. However, my respectful disagreement will be one of staunch disagreement where I insist on your error. If we can amicably part at that point, then we'll be better people for it.
But would you consider the possibility that it's not the clothes doing it? Just like there is an abnormally high amount of African-American's committing violent crimes, we know better than to blame it on race, when in fact the problem is that many African-Americans are born into unhealthy environments. I think this issue to is a problem of being born and raised by parents who themselves don't understand sexuality. I was very lucky to have a father who wasn't ashamed to talk to me. I didn't have to turn to promiscuity to solve my problems because he was there to help me solve them. In turn then I was able to mature in sexuality enough that I could then use it well.

Lastly, I'll address the nudist topic (before I forget). I don't have an opinion on nudism. Never really thought about it. I'm talking about the sexualization of young girls. I believe that they are different topics, though.
So you agree then that the clothes themselves aren't the issue?

I wish there was a better format for replying to long posts like that. I don't like breaking everything up =/

Postado por MyTie

If there is so much more to us than sex, then why is what we do with out sexuality such a big deal? We're not so scared of our sexuality. We want it to be an integral part of our lives. Why is there are large portion of men who feel it's their duty to save the world from our boobs? Yes, I completely 100% believe that there are social norms that need to be followed, but I think it ends there. Why is it unhealthy for me to be comfortable with my body enough to not be ashamed of it? My sexuality is a part of who I am.First of all, let's not make this into a sexist thing. I don't believe what I believe because I'm a man. Lots of women share my views. Being 'comfortable with your body' and 'not ashamed' and having a 'sexuality part of who you are' is great. None of that encompasses a sexually charged outfit. I'm not advocating people to be uncomfortable, or ashamed, or not having sex in their life. I'm encouraging incorporating modesty into the equation.

But would you consider the possibility that it's not the clothes doing it? Just like there is an abnormally high amount of African-American's committing violent crimes, we know better than to blame it on race, when in fact the problem is that many African-Americans are born into unhealthy environments. I think this issue to is a problem of being born and raised by parents who themselves don't understand sexuality. I was very lucky to have a father who wasn't ashamed to talk to me. I didn't have to turn to promiscuity to solve my problems because he was there to help me solve them. In turn then I was able to mature in sexuality enough that I could then use it well.

Lastly, I'll address the nudist topic (before I forget). I don't have an opinion on nudism. Never really thought about it. I'm talking about the sexualization of young girls. I believe that they are different topics, though.
So you agree then that the clothes themselves aren't the issue?Yes to this all. It's the sexualization, which can be done without or with clothes. However, clothes can be a venue used to paint oneself with sexuality.

Postado por Jubilee

First of all, let's not make this into a sexist thing. I don't believe what I believe because I'm a man. Lots of women share my views. Being 'comfortable with your body' and 'not ashamed' and having a 'sexuality part of who you are' is great. None of that encompasses a sexually charged outfit. I'm not advocating people to be uncomfortable, or ashamed, or not having sex in their life. I'm encouraging incorporating modesty into the equation.
Modesty insofar as social norms, sure. What other modesty is needed?

Yes to this all. It's the sexualization, which can be done without or with clothes. However, clothes can be a venue used to paint oneself with sexuality.
Okay, then I'm not sure why you're upset with people saying "no". If clothes are not necessarily bad and can also be a venue for self-expression, how do you judge someone else then?
It's actually a problem I have with catholic and some christian teaching. One one hand half the walls of the Vatican have naked people on them, but on the other hand every single form of modern nudity is systematically condemned. Obviously at one point someone believed that sexuality is beautiful and that there is nothing wrong with revealing it, yet it's all anathema now.

Reading everything I've said, I realize that deep down I'm actually more of a feminist than I thought. You said not to make it a sexist thing, but I really do believe it's a sexist thing. In all my experience girls are much more comfortable with sexuality than guys. It's guys either being gawkers or being prudes on both sides that causes so much of the problem. Not to say women aren't to blame for anything, but I can't help but think that this problem would all but disappear if men did =P

Postado por MyTie

There's a lot of difference between a greek nude and britney spear's latest outfit.

I can see where you are coming from. I can see where a lot of people are coming from who think that it is perfectly fine to have a sexualized culture. I can see that because I am capable of putting myself in their shoes, so to speak, and trying to understand their views from their points. Are you telling me that you are so removed from seeing things from the other point of view that you can't distinguish between nudism, vatican paintings, and the latest britney spears concert? Two of them are art, and one is a really stupid girl wearing almost nothing while humping a wooden concert floor and a dozen male dancers. What is the difference between lady gadiva and the herds of teen girls in push up bras, hair extentions, mini skirts, and pump heels? If you can't tell the difference between sexuality and sexualization of women, then I don't think I can illustrate my points for you.

Postado por Jubilee

I believe I understand your position perfectly. You think that sexuality itself is a beautiful and probably sacred thing, and that modern culture takes that and abuses it and rolls it around in the mud and calls it sexual progress and women's liberation, to the point where our children are growing up and think that this is normal and acceptable and good behavior. Is that about the sum of it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

My point of difference is that the reason there's a difference is that culture changes. And since I believe that culture and social norm is the commanding principle in this area, then there is no reason to condemn it. I'm under the impression that you think there is a different standard, which is why you take issue.

Can of Worms: Should young women stop dressing so 'slutty'?

Resposta da Mensagem