Nobbel87 on the Partnership Between Sylvanas and the Jailer

Posted 2021/02/28 at 5:01 PM by perculia

Nobbel87's video last week on the Chains of Domination storyKingsmourneArthas vs Anduin

In life, Arthas himself wasn’t sure about the choices he made and that doubt was with him during choices like the purge of Stratholme. The Light felt his shaking conviction and therefore as he caved in the chest of a boy with his hammer, he absently realized it was no longer radiant with the Light. No doubt that there were outside forces manipulating him, and that the choices given to Arthas were not easy ones. Even to this day people debate about the purge of Stratholme, but a choice was there.

Then he picked up Frostmourne and sacrificed a piece of his soul. Became an agent of the Lich King, but by no means was Arthas entirely gone. If you’ve read Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, then you know there are several moments of inner dialogue where he ponders the road that he’s on. Where he feels human emotions, despite pretending like they’re not there.

Like I said, it’s the choices a character makes, the road that they walk that makes them interesting. Nobody will blame Anduin for stabbing the Archon. You can see his own shocked face, it going so against his nature that he momentarily breaks free of the Jailer's control. To take away that agency would be to take away what makes Arthas one of the better stories they’ve done and thankfully Blizzard thinks that as well.

Bellular BlizzConline interview

Steve Danuser: There are similarities, deliberate ones, that we're showing in the cinematic to have Arthas overtones. But we see clear differences as well. When Anduin attacks the Archon, we get that moment where the power weakens a little bit and we see his personality come through. He's horrified at what's going on. But then that Domination magic kicks in again, the runes light up, and he is once again suppressed to the Jailer's will.

That wasn't the case with Arthas. Arthas made choices along the way, and yes there was a dark power calling to him and all of that, but it was still very much choices that he made that led him along the path that he went.

Afterlives: BastionSylvanas and Free Will

Garrosh: “Have you given any thought to what this means, Sylvanas? What is the difference between you and the Lich King now?” 
Sylvanas: “Isn’t it obvious warchief, I serve the Horde.”

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Derek Proudmoore was a hero to the Kul Tirans.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: They are sure to stage a rescue attempt when they learn of his fate.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And once his mind has been properly conditioned, we will allow the Proudmoores to recover their long-lost prince...
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: ... so he can slaughter them in their sleep.

Derek: “I don’t understand this! Please...PLEASE...how is this possible?! Tell me....tell me, where is my father? My mother? jaina...Tandred..please...please... I’m so alone! Don’t...don’t leave me alone!”

strong visual comparisonsDiscovering the Connection Between Jailer and the Lich King

While not impossible, I hope they don’t make Sylvanas that dumb. One of the first things people noticed when the model of the Jailer came out, besides being bald and handsome, were the runes on his body looking very similar to those on Frostmourne. Sylvanas is intimately familiar with Frostmourne so to not even have an idea that there might be a connection there would make her really dumb, in my opinion of course.

Jailer and Sylvanas Have Different Goalshoworchestrated many cosmic warsWhat Could Happen to Sylvanas in Patch 9.1?strongly hinting at a new skybox

Personally I think Sylvanas is far beyond redemption. I would find it very strange if she ever returns as a Forsaken leader or a member of the Horde. The motivation behind someone's actions explains a lot about the why, but the morality behind it is for each their own to decide. Good or evil, right or wrong, it’s a matter of perspective. The Jailer could truly be just an evil force waiting to break out and consume the universe or perhaps there is more at play. What the pantheon of death might describe as a betrayal, would be in the eyes of the Jailer a freedom, a gift, a good thing. An easy example would be the dark titan Sargeras. He formed his Burning Legion because he found out, by interrogating dreadlords, that the Voidlords wanted to corrupt a slumbering titan and use that corrupted being to also consume the universe. In Sargeras’ mind the best thing for the universe to happen would be to purge it, to go on this grand Burning Crusade and get rid of the Voidlords' corruption.

Bellular Lore Interview

The thing to keep in mind is that these forces, whether it be Light, or Order from the Titans, or Shadow...characters in our world tend to ascribe good and evil motivations to these things, but really, those powers don't care about morality. They are driven to do what their nature is. And so, the nature of the Titans is to impose Order on things. If you are on that program, helping them accomplish that goal, then they will be benevolent towards you, and they will help and guide you. Perhaps we'll learn what will happen if you aren't someone who agrees with their agendas.

These things exist beyond the morality we as mortals think of. As that more-cosmic storyline unfolds, those moral questions and mortal points of view, vs these cosmic ancient powers, will be something to explore.

return of the Dreadlords

Comment by elmurSylvanas will the perfect replacement for the jailer when we remove him and then she cant stay locked there forever and torture him prefect punishment and end for both charactersComment by NerdstomperWhat if Sylvanas will be forever more Jailers Jailor like illidan to sargeras?Comment by NiccoloM1. Sylvannas is trying to destroy the establishment in order to break the veil between life and death, hopefully nobody will die again, and even if they still die, they wouldn't get judged by someone we don't know why they are qualified to judge us. That is a good thing.

2. However, by destroying the establishment, she needs to first hurt a lot of people in life and in death, which is the evil thing.

3. The adventurers in the story are part of the establishment. Many of us would be harmed before Sylvannas succeeds, and chances are we wouldn't be there to witness the victory and enjoy the fruits of her achievement. This is why we are against her.

4. This is highly analogous to real life situations. We can't fix any problems because too many people's interests are entrenched in the establishments. Those people would never risk their interests even if a better future is promised. And we are exactly that in-game.

5. Sylvannas obviously understands that too, that's why she is trying to do it mostly alone, thus making her a huge antagonist in the story.Comment by stormrage666Reading here... Sylvs deserve a fate like Thrall. She must rest, not get killed. She must finally be free of all wars...Comment by ZigrifidSylvanas wont die, she will be thrown to prison where she will eat with anduin talking about her actions and at some point she will escape and use one of those time dragons to go to an alternative azeroth and stop her "alive" self from powersliding towards arthas leading to her demise!Comment by reboundI don't think it's a matter of Sylvanas necessarily being DUMB; but moreso that it's possible the Jailer lied to her. When we see him by himself, all the talk is of control, of domination. The Runecarver memory cinematic makes that painfully obvious. (also: we don't know how long ago this was; it's possible the Runecarver was captured a while before even the events of Warcraft 3)

By contrast, Sylvanas is all about freedom, about breaking the chains that bind you. Her actions speak to a rebelling against any and all order because she feels like she's never in control of her own destiny and has always had to break the control over her life: she breaks the Lich King's hold on her, and continues by creating the Forsaken (Scourge whom she helps to also refuse his influence). She initially doesn't want to be Warchief (since responsibilities are a form a control), but with her deal with the Jailer she's able to start the Fourth War.

Is it really outside the realm of possibility that, up until that cinematic, she was a willing pawn? The Jailer doesn't even need to control her; she's willing to do his bidding because she fears the cycle of Death and wishes to break it so that she can be free to escape the afterlife that awaits her. The Jailer just feeds her what she wants to hear.Comment by dek1979I will not do the raid.. i do not wanna do no harm to sylvanas she's my fan serviceComment by AsokkoI hope she will get decapitated by Tyrande either in the raid or by the end of 9.1Comment by 1412075This post was from a user who has deleted their account.Comment by NiccoloMI don't think it's a matter of Sylvanas necessarily being DUMB; but moreso that it's possible the Jailer lied to her. When we see him by himself, all the talk is of control, of domination. The Runecarver memory cinematic makes that painfully obvious. (also: we don't know how long ago this was; it's possible the Runecarver was captured a while before even the events of Warcraft 3)Comment by NiccoloMRemovedComment by NierielNora... on Sylvanas' character arc and why should could be allied with the Jailer.Comment by wangfu1. Sylvannas is trying to destroy the establishment in order to break the veil between life and death, hopefully nobody will die again, and even if they still die, they wouldn't get judged by someone we don't know why they are qualified to judge us. That is a good thing.

2. However, by destroying the establishment, she needs to first hurt a lot of people in life and in death, which is the evil thing.

3. The adventurers in the story are part of the establishment. Many of us would be harmed before Sylvannas succeeds, and chances are we wouldn't be there to witness the victory and enjoy the fruits of her achievement. This is why we are against her.

4. This is highly analogous to real life situations. We can't fix any problems because too many people's interests are entrenched in the establishments. Those people would never risk their interests even if a better future is promised. And we are exactly that in-game.

5. Sylvannas obviously understands that too, that's why she is trying to do it mostly alone, thus making her a huge antagonist in the story.Comment by 1412075This post was from a user who has deleted their account.Comment by Belo1. Sylvannas is trying to destroy the establishment in order to break the veil between life and death, hopefully nobody will die again, and even if they still die, they wouldn't get judged by someone we don't know why they are qualified to judge us. That is a good thing.

2. However, by destroying the establishment, she needs to first hurt a lot of people in life and in death, which is the evil thing.

3. The adventurers in the story are part of the establishment. Many of us would be harmed before Sylvannas succeeds, and chances are we wouldn't be there to witness the victory and enjoy the fruits of her achievement. This is why we are against her.

4. This is highly analogous to real life situations. We can't fix any problems because too many people's interests are entrenched in the establishments. Those people would never risk their interests even if a better future is promised. And we are exactly that in-game.

5. Sylvannas obviously understands that too, that's why she is trying to do it mostly alone, thus making her a huge antagonist in the story.Comment by Radene

4. This is highly analogous to real life situations. We can't fix any problems because too many people's interests are entrenched in the establishments. Those people would never risk their interests even if a better future is promised. And we are exactly that in-game.himComment by TheLustful1. Sylvannas is trying to destroy the establishment in order to break the veil between life and death, hopefully nobody will die again, and even if they still die, they wouldn't get judged by someone we don't know why they are qualified to judge us. That is a good thing.

2. However, by destroying the establishment, she needs to first hurt a lot of people in life and in death, which is the evil thing.

3. The adventurers in the story are part of the establishment. Many of us would be harmed before Sylvannas succeeds, and chances are we wouldn't be there to witness the victory and enjoy the fruits of her achievement. This is why we are against her.

4. This is highly analogous to real life situations. We can't fix any problems because too many people's interests are entrenched in the establishments. Those people would never risk their interests even if a better future is promised. And we are exactly that in-game.

5. Sylvannas obviously understands that too, that's why she is trying to do it mostly alone, thus making her a huge antagonist in the story.Comment by Rollorg1. Sylvannas is trying to destroy the establishment in order to break the veil between life and death, hopefully nobody will die again, and even if they still die, they wouldn't get judged by someone we don't know why they are qualified to judge us. That is a good thing.

2. However, by destroying the establishment, she needs to first hurt a lot of people in life and in death, which is the evil thing.

3. The adventurers in the story are part of the establishment. Many of us would be harmed before Sylvannas succeeds, and chances are we wouldn't be there to witness the victory and enjoy the fruits of her achievement. This is why we are against her.

4. This is highly analogous to real life situations. We can't fix any problems because too many people's interests are entrenched in the establishments. Those people would never risk their interests even if a better future is promised. And we are exactly that in-game.

5. Sylvannas obviously understands that too, that's why she is trying to do it mostly alone, thus making her a huge antagonist in the story.Comment by crushburnFrom my point of view she is not pure evil.
I like what she did and I would have loved to see her achieve her goals without retreating after the fight with Saurfang.

From my point of view Saurfang did change his mind all the time when it was convinient.
He was a traitor too Sylvanas and the Horde.
As much as I loved him in the past but what he did was unacceptable.

The Alliance is in many points far worse than the Horde but many people only look at it like Monsters (Horde) must be evil and Alliance must be righteous and good.

The same goes for the Light and Army of the Light and Naaru.
Always telling us how they want to help us and basically enforcing their will on us.

Look at how they tricked us into attacking the Black Temple and bringing Illidan down.
How they abuse their power to achieve their goals. Just like everyone else.

As Lord Illidan said sometimes the Hand of Fate must be forced. And some people don't or are not able to do it on their own or even work against it because they don't see the complete picture or are afraid of change.Comment by TheLustfulFrom my point of view she is not pure evil.
I like what she did and I would have loved to see her achieve her goals without retreating after the fight with Saurfang.

From my point of view Saurfang did change his mind all the time when it was convinient.
He was a traitor too Sylvanas and the Horde.
As much as I loved him in the past but what he did was unacceptable.

The Alliance is in many points far worse than the Horde but many people only look at it like Monsters (Horde) must be evil and Alliance must be righteous and good.

The same goes for the Light and Army of the Light and Naaru.
Always telling us how they want to help us and basically enforcing their will on us.

Look at how they tricked us into attacking the Black Temple and bringing Illidan down.
How they abuse their power to achieve their goals. Just like everyone else.

As Lord Illidan said sometimes the Hand of Fate must be forced. And some people don't or are not able to do it on their own or even work against it because they don't see the complete picture or are afraid of change.