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Kommentar von olss0nftw

I will try this spell out today, and check if its worth to use WF weapon or if its better to use flametongue weapon.

Will edit this post later tonight. But I realy think that its better with flametongue weapon because its fire dmg = 100% dmg and no armor migration.

I have now tested it some, not much, but its better to use a slow offhand with flametongue then everything else. I tested some with a fast offhand, but i did more dmg with a slow offhand.

So i say flametongue with a slow offhand is the best thing to use =)

Kommentar von 171311

You would definitely want to use flametongue weapon if you plan on spamming this ability. If you use WF, then you are going to be increasing the odds that you are proc'ing WF with your offhand (at 50% damage) and putting WF on its 3 sec internal cooldown. This is already an undesirable effect, which is why any good Enh shaman uses a slow weapon in their OH. Using this ability with WF on your OH weapon would be counter-productive.

And, as olss0nftw mentioned, you'd rather have the damage increased by 25% due to the elemental damage caused by this ability. =D Whether this ends up being more damage than OH WF procs, or if it's too cumbersome due to causing a GCD every 6 seconds from spamming the ability, will remain to be seen.

Kommentar von hordy

I think it is clear to most shamans that flametongue should be used for OH as a result of this spell. Now the question becomes, should shamans stick with slow OH for harder Lava Lash hits, or faster OH for more Maelstrom Weapon procs. I'm sure elitest jerks are already working on this.

Kommentar von 179440

I like how this talent and Malestrom Weapon mean that we Enhancement Shaman don't just spam Earth Shock over and over anymore, but instead get some tools to variate what we do.

Kommentar von branflakes

There will be a few things to consider here before we can truly gauge the power of this spell.

Does it crit based on spell or physical %? (it can crit)
Is it mitigated at all by armor? (likely not)
Does it scale with spellpower? (already known to scale with AP)
Can it miss/be resisted?
Can it be dodged/parried/blocked?
Does it consume our new stormstrike charges?

With that said, it's still a very welcome change considering it's a new melee special attack. That alone means more yellow damage, which means it can't be a glancing blow.

Kommentar von snyper256

I'm wielding Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality, and was using Windfury Weapon and Flametongue Weapon.
I'm using Glyph of Flametongue Weapon, Glyph of Lightning Shield and Glyph of Fire Nova Totem.
This is on the PTR, and this is my build. I'm geared somewhere between T4 & T5 and gemmed all "wrong" (Strength).
Kara run from after Curator:

Lava Lash crits at the same rate as my white Melee damage, 34%.
Average hit was 589, average crit was 1180. Highest crit was 1.8k.

Flametongue Weapon was critting at 35%.
Average hit was 195, average crit was 305. Highest crit was 419.

Total damage was 1209237. Here's the breakdown:

Melee - 47.6%
Windfury Attack - 15.6%
Flametongue Attack - 9.3%
Lightning Shield - 5.9%
Lava Lash - 5.8%
Chain Lightning - 5.2%
Earth Shock - 3.6%
Lightning Bolt - 2.9%

That's a lot of damage sources for Enhancement!
Stormstrike doesn't have its own damage anymore - seems to be counting as Melee.

Once I figured out a good rotation (SS, Lash, Flame/Earth Shock, Lightning bolt ha!, refresh Lightning Shield if necessary), I was fluctuating between 1k and 1.5k DPS. I have yet to break 1.3k DPS in any setting on live. Prince ended with me at 1.3k for that fight.

This is makes Enhancement a lot more fun. There's a LOT less waiting between the two 6-second cooldowns, the 8-second Stormstrikes and the instant LB/Chain Lighting!

Edit:
New training dummies in Stormwind! WF/FT outperformed WF/WF by 150 DPS. It was a little uncontrolled (debuffs from other players).

Kommentar von 151016

I'm actually kind of hoping that this is normalized, or gets normalized. I'm a bit tired of being forced to either use slow weapons or significantly nerf DPS.

Kommentar von 207838

Now i am still lvln and shaman so sorry if i get this wrong BUT it would seem that slow/slow would still be the way to go seeing as SS is a double attack with both weaps and this is 100% offhand damage so it would hit harder. not to mention (and this is totally situatuional) what if you are farming fire elementals and dps'n a fire boss it would be nice to fall back to WF/WF in those cases.

Edit: I dont know why i did think of this as i have a fury warrior. Another point to slow/slow keep a fast offhand from eating you flurry proc.

Kommentar von Wooohooohooo

I have this talent & do use it with Flametongue Weapon enchant unto my offhand. Its effectiveness without a doubt in BG/PVP is impressive. WF on my MH & FT on my OH, plus a 6sec CD on Lava Lash astounding in heroics & raids. However, do consider if you are to go up against an immune to fire target. Otherwise, you should see now how cloth armor opponents go down in cinders. Not certain if casters are still trying to figure out their talent trees, but they seem to be going down quicker against my melee class.

Kommentar von 231736

mm from the comments here it seems the dps from FT on offhand is higher..however does this mean we'll be needing stack +hit to the hit cap now?

Kommentar von 75077

Questions:
Does Lava Lash get Elemental Devastation to proc? No, it does not.

Does Flametoungue weapon get Elemental Devastation to proc? No, this doesn't either.

And isn't Slow/Slow with WF/WF still not more effective if you do Lava Lash after the WF procs?
When tested on the dummies in Org i managed to have a higher dps when using Slow/slow with WF/Flametounge than with slow/slow with WF/WF. This might be 'cause elemental devastation procs of the shocks and instant lightningbolts which gave me a higher melee dps. Other than that, I will try to run some more testing and come back to you.

Kommentar von 20342

Physical Crit and Spell Crit were united the patch so there shouldn't be a difference between the two.

Just wanted to point out that while spell and physical crit ratings were merged, there are other sources that weren't. Agility does not increase your spell crit, nor does intellect increase your melee crit. Likewise, Rampage/LotP are melee-only while Moonkin Aura is spell-only, and melee hits get no benefit from Improved Scorch or Winter's Chill while spells do. Self-buffed or even raid buffed, melee crit should be well ahead of spell crit, but adding in a mage for debuffs will probably pull spell crit ahead.

Kommentar von Grimtongue

I dislike this ability, but it does give more DPS than WF/WF. You also have to consider that spell power from Flametongue will boost our LB damage, which you should be using with a full Maelstrom stack.

Kommentar von 31067

new patch notes say:

Shaman: Lava Lash - Fixed a bug which allowed you to use the ability even if you had a shield in offhand. Now requires a 1hand axe, fist or dagger to be able to be used.

axe - fist - dagger

where on earth is 1h MACE! I refuse to believe that blizzard is stupid enough to try and force slow off-hand maces out of the game.... i mean, rogues dont use slow off-hands, combat mace specs still want fast off-hands...

i hope that this is a type from the devs

Kommentar von 203397

Will this spell also benefit from Flametongue Totem for a spell dmg increase as well as having your OH charged with Falmetongue? Anyone know?

Kommentar von 85866

what happens if you try using Lava Lash with a 2hander on?

Kommentar von 298983

I have been reading all the posts, and the general consensus is that Flametongue is the best choice for offhand. I have yet to decide if I agree.

Here is what I know for sure:
In a RAID scenario the reason duel-wield Windfury has been so good to shamans is because they are not required to cap hit rating for their offhands (like rogues). Windfury is considered a special attack, therefore only needing 9% hit rating (3% if speced with 3/3 Duel Wield Specialization) to hit a raid boss from on a proc on EITHER hand. (This is a HUGE deal, because the typical off-hand hit rating cap is 28%.) Though, with Flametongue stepping in to replace Windfury on off-hand, hit rating becomes more of an issue.
Now from what I am reading about Lava Lash, it is considered special attack, and therefore only needs 9% hit rating (just like Windfury). But the Flametongue procs are spell damage, and spells require 17% hit rating, which is twice as much as special attacks. I am assuming that the reason Blizzard increased Lava Lash when Flametongue is applied, was to compensate for the damage lost to hit rating. This however, does not rectify the issue that flametongue can still benefit from more hit rating.

Here is what I want to know:
Does Flamtongue spell power bonus stack if you apply it to BOTH weapons? Does Flametongue receive bonus hit rating from Duel Wield Specialization (like Windfury does)? Has anyone with a level 80 shaman (that has 9% hit rating or LESS) tested the damage output of duel Windfury weapons and Winfury/Flametongue weapons, on a RAID dummy? Has anyone with a level 80 shaman (that has 17% hit rating or MORE) tested the damage output of duel Windfury weapons and Winfury/Flametongue weapons, on a RAID dummy?

Kommentar von 96586

Ok, When it says Off-Hand weapon, does that mean whatever is in your off-hand weapon, or you need an actual "Off-Hand" weapon? So, if you have a "One-Hand" weapon in your off-hand slot that will work right?

I'm lvl 68 and attacking the 70 dummy with lavalash, gives about 95% dmg. Is that normal?

Kommentar von JBird

I've been testing this move out and i have noticed this move does proc maelstrom point and it does proc your offhand enchant on it (like WF or FT) when you use it so useing Lava lash ive noticed after the FT proc goes off lava lash really does about as much dmg as your main hand weapon can since it ignores armor and procs FT since FT always procs off every hit

Kommentar von 175983

I personaly think this is the thing to use while your shocks are on cooldown. POW, right in the kisser! :)

Kommentar von poggg

This spell is getting a new icon in 3.1.

Well thank god for that!

Kommentar von Stormwaker

In patch 3.1, it's receiving a new icon, along with riptide as well.

The new icon is viewable on the ptr version of wowhead. Basically, looks like a mace in motion with a fiery haze in the front, with lava enveloping the front and dripping slowly towards the back.

Kommentar von 48190

Blizzard - Making Enhancement Shamans OP since 2008.
* Patch 2.0.4
Stormstrike has a new icon.
* Patch 3.1.0
Lava Lash now has a new icon.

(found on EU forums btw :p )

Kommentar von 277982

I suppose it wouldn't work on 2handers, right? (The tooltip would lead me to believe so).
It's a shame though. If this works on 2handers, that would make suicide bomber shaman viable again.

Kommentar von DrChristmas

Just a new icon? Why didn't they fix the real problem with Lava Lash?

It has a wimpy sound effect.

Kommentar von 368684

hi.. i have a question to do...
lava lash can be used with a one hand weapon or off hand weapon?

Kommentar von 341898

I have noticed something really odd about this ability.. The amount of weapon damage done gets higher with faster weapons (i.e. daggers). With Angry Dread in my OH it was doing 100%, but with Golem-Shard Sticker in my OH it's doing 120% (not including the bonus 25% from having FT imbued on it).

Kommentar von 366951

Anyone know why it's marked as "Rank 1" instead of having no ranks like Stormstrike?

Kommentar von 430662

What the hell? u learn the accual spell at lvl 45, yet u can get the glyph at freakin lvl 15? that is MESSED UP!

Kommentar von 477998

a sign from the devs that we're definitely supposed to be dual wielding :<

Kommentar von 110445

Maybe because there will be a Rank 2...

Kommentar von chop360

Can this be used with a shield?

Kommentar von 629499

Is it just me, or should this ability 'Lash' in a cone infront of the shaman? It would be better because shaman's don't have many multi-target attacks.
Chain lightning, Magma totem(which is too expensive), lava burst(which is even more expensive) and that's it. If it did hit multi-targets then it would give people more reason too choose enhancement.

Kommentar von Omgomgesiuol

Enhance Shamans "signature" move in Cata, that you learn the second you spec into Enh.

Shame, I thought it'd be Stormstrike. (Even with the fact they said it'd be baseline, it would make sense IMO)

Kommentar von Gulanzon

It's 100% of your character sheet's offhand damage, which is after the 50% penalty. So, you do
0.50 * 1.25 = 62.5% of your weapons' printed damage + a flametongue proc, which basically works out to be a free weapon swing every 6 seconds (at my current rather low level of gear, at any rate).

I suppose you can basically look at any offhand imbue as being the Shaman's version of Dual Wield Mastery, and this is probably why we don't see it in our talent trees. (I also like how this keeps the flavour of "Enhancement"--we're still Shamans, after all, and we complement our physical strength with our powers gained via our relationship with the spirits of nature: stormstrike, lava lash, totems, etc; all these have a very "magicey" feel to them).

If you're rocking the Triumph totem, that's a free weapon swing and an 80% chance of buffing your AP by 400 (and consequently your spellpower by 120). Very nice.

At any rate, to answer your question about whether or not to use WF/WF...

Short answer:

While levelling? Yes. By the time you're raiding? WF/FT.

Long answer:

In the short, bursty fights of non-elite world creeps, WF/WF will maximise your WF uptime, at the cost of the spellpower bonus on FT (which will never matter, since you will likely only being using lightning bolt and an earth shock in a standard fight). More WF procs = more weapon swings = faster Maelstrom stacks = on-the-go healing/LB/CL.

In the longer fights of heroics and raids, the spellpower boost from FT benefits a large part of your damage (including, deliciously, all three of your AoEs), and the damage a FT proc will do somewhat outstrips the net damage of offhand Windfury procs and lost mainhand Windfury procs.

If you're ever in doubt, there are three very useful tools for the dedicated:

#1 is Rawr. Windows users need only google it. Mac users may find a Silverlight version on the EJ site. This will help you plan out your gear, and give you delicious numbers to fantasise about.
#2 is EnhSim. Windows users, again, may google it. Mac users are out of luck, but Rawr should suffice.
#3 is Recount. Watch your personal detail window like a hawk! There's lots of useful information in here about where your damage is coming from, and you can make further fine-tuning adjustments based on this, after Rawr has optimised your gear (which is as painful as complex as the Enhancement shaman itself).

Happy Shamanamaning...ing... or whatever :P

Kommentar von PalaDinka

Now a glyphed lava lash deals 72,5 offhand weapon damage plus flametongue

Kommentar von 275792

Probably one of the few if not the only spells, that went from the most useless spell in ones rotation (okay fire nova, you're pretty even) to becoming the hardest hitting spell in ones artillery. It hits for ALOT. Using the Searing flames and improved lava lash talents plus flametongue weapon on offhand this just went absolutely insane on live, can onehit people with the right setup.

E: spelling, yeez this was bad.

Kommentar von catuti

increased CD in 4.0.1?

anyway, 10 secs cd now that there is a talent so searing totem will do one stack per second, seems like a waste of dmg

Kommentar von 118464

Lava Lash is main attack skill for post 4.0.1 Enhancement Shamans. It may have sucked pre-4.0 but Blizzard has stacked the deck, so to speak, to ensure that Lava Lash hits like a truck.

+ 40% damage if you have Flametongue Weapon on your off-hand
+ 20% damage if you have the Prime Glyph
+ 30% damage if you have Improved Lava Lash
+ an additional 20% per stack (max of 5 stacks) for each stack of Searing Flames on your target.

So that's an initial 200% off-hand weapon damage + 90% damage + an additional 20% to 100% damage, depending on how many Searing Flame stacks on your target.

So thank Blizzard for turning Lava Lash into Lava Smash!

Kommentar von 290890

In the beta:

Using WF/FT or frostbrand/FT with frozen power seems to be the way to go.

Lava lash crits for simply MASSIVE ammounts...upwards of 30-40K when also combined with the right glyphs, talents, and totems.

Kommentar von 393224

Great spell in cataclysm...
Our main nuke and main source of burst.
Ignores armor, deals 200% dmg +40% if weapon is enchanted with FT, + 20% from glyph, + 30% from imp. lava lash, and 10% for each application of Searing Flames debuff (stacks 5 times). All of this makes this spell a beast of an attack...

In pvp u wont use FT on ofhand so dmg will be lower, but you will recevie 10% when target is affected by FB debuff...

Also it benefits from mastery, making this spell very very good... Atm SS is wet noodle when compared with LL.

Our entire tree is now centered around off-hand attack, annoying but original :)

Kommentar von TDE156

Both Lava Lash and Stormstrike are both getting new animations in 4.0.6.

Kommentar von Arkhirion

We're looking at one hell of alot of damage from Lava Lash in Cataclysm. Capable of outdamaging Stormstrike and maybe even windfury procs.

Standard 200% damage.
Glyphed it does 240% damage.
Flametongue enchant increases it to 336% offhand weapon damage(240*1.4=336).
Added to that is 30% from Improved Lava Lash adding up to 436.8% (336*1.3=436.8)
The finishin touch would be the 20% per stack of Searing Flames that could potentially add another 100%. increasing it to a whopping 873.6% offhand weapon damage.

I myself am a huge fan of Dual-wielding classes, having played a rogue, fury warrior and ToT-death knight and now having a shaman at a respectable level and I must say.. this is quite the attack.

Kommentar von TheHandOfSeth

is still quite a big number considering it bypasses armor being an elemental damagin attack.

Are you entirely sure it is fire damage? Flametongue's Unleash Elements isn't consumed by this ability, so I assumed that it received no bonus damage. Also, if I remember correctly, I think I remember the combat log noted it as 'Physical' damage. Could just be my poor memory in that regard, however (can't test it right now, the realms are under maintenance).

Kommentar von Pope

Ok, let's see. I typed a good calculation of Lava Lash-Damage before, but it got lost with the comment-transition on wowhead.

First of all, basics:
Lava Lash is a non-normalized attack, so the Speed of the weapon directly translates into the damage of Lava Lash.
The slower the weapon, the harder Lava Lash hits. Storm Strike is the same, but most other attacks from other classes are normalized at a fixed speed.

So, using an item like No'Kaled, die Elemente des Todes as an example, speed is 2.6, and the top-end weapon damage is 2658.

Now, to calculate the damage of Lava Lash, you use this formula:

+ *

which means

2658 + 2.6* 20000/14

= 6372,3

(Using 20k attackpower, I guess that's reasonable in good gear.)

Now, Damage-Modifiers:

Weapon Damage	Lavapeitsche 260%	Glyphe 'Lavapeitsche'	Item - Shaman T11 Enhancement 2P Bonus	5 Stacks	Item - Shaman T12 Enhancement 2P Bonus	Flametongue	Waffe der Flammenzunge	Elementare Präzision	Fluch der Elemente	Meisterschaft: Verstärkte Elemente
6372,3	* (2,6	*1,2	*1,1)	*(2	+0,25	+0,4)	*1,07	*1,03	*1,08]	*1,2

Mastery is the easiest way to increase Lava Lash-Damage, besides a weapon upgrade and more Attack Power.

Do note, however that Lava Lash is affected by the offhand-penalty, so the damage has to be cut in half.
But on the other hand, it's not affected by armor, because it's fire damage.

And that's how you get some high Lava Lash-crits :D

Kommentar von 1073941

Question, is it better to have my stronger weapon in my Off Hand due to this skill? as it seems smarter due to the fact that no ability's only use the main hand

Kommentar von Taraezor

Edit: This comment is of historical value. It is NOT current as of this patch.

Just to update the other comments a bit as Blizzard constantly updates abilities in many ways including effectiveness in a rotation:

LL is still very important in 5.3 and 5.4 but better priorities are:

(1) Elementarbeherrschung - a Tier 4 talent many players take
(2) Aszendenz - very very important to use in rotations when off cool down
(3) Your Fire Totem, either a Totem des Feuerelementars if on a boss or a big burn phase or else your standard Totem der Verbrennung
(But if using ST then you can let it go out but ensure that Sengende Flammen buff you get from ST (and FE) never expires)
(4) Your Totem des Erdelementars if on a boss. Don't worry about dodgy taunts these days.
(5) Your Tier 6 talent
(6) Blitzschlag if on 5 stacks of Waffe des Mahlstroms (4 if you have the Tier 15 2 piece bonus)
(7) Sturmschlag or Gewitterschlag
(8) Lava Lash
(9) I could go on but I won't lol.

As you can see. LL is important but not that important.

Kommentar von Gingerheart74

So, I was playing around on my Enh Shaman out in Townlong Steppes, and randomly hit a gigantic critical with this ability, over a million damage critical. I'm uncertain what caused it, as I wasn't aiming to crit this high and so was not watching what buffs I had on. I'm uploading a screenshot of my combat log, but I hit around 98k dmg with a 991k dmg overkill. I was like O.O wow.

Links

Lavapeitsche

Lavapeitsche

4% von Grundmana	Nahkampfreichweite

Sofort	10 sek. Abklingzeit

Lädt Eure Schildhandwaffe mit Lava auf, die Eurem Ziel sofort 300% Waffenschaden dieser Waffe zufügt und den Effekt Eures Zaubers 'Flammenschock' vom Ziel aus auf bis zu vier weitere Gegner im Umkreis von 12 Metern ausbreitet. Der Schaden ist um 40% höher, wenn Eure Schildhandwaffe mit dem Effekt 'Flammenzunge' verzaubert ist.

Zauberdetails

Dauer

n/a

Magieart

Feuer

Mechanik

n/a

Bannart

n/a

GCD-Kategorie

Normal

Kosten

4% von Grundmana

Reichweite

5 Meter (Kampf)

Zauberzeit

Sofort

Abklingzeit

10 sekunden

GCD

1.5 sekunden

Effekt #1

Weapon Damage - %
Wert: 300
PVP-Multiplikator: 1

Effekt #2

Dummy
Wert: 40
PVP-Multiplikator: 1
Serverseitiges Skript

Effekt #3

Normalized Weapon Damage
PVP-Multiplikator: 1

Flags

Ist Fähigkeit
Kann nicht verwendet werden, während Ihr gestaltverwandelt seid
Waffe nicht wegstecken
Initiiere Kampf (aktiviert Auto-Attack)
Macht bei verfehlen ignorieren
Benötigt eine Schildhandwaffe

Lavapeitsche

Stärkungszauber

Zauberdetails

Weiteres

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