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10.2.7
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10.2.6
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Blizzard should nerf twinking abilities
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nephthyswanderer
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Moving from 12mil to 10.2m is waning. Maybe MoP changes that, who knows.
I think the point is that if capturing new players and fostering the creation of long term players is a focal point of Blizzard, this is an example of something that could slightly changed to eliminate the hopeless state of the new player's pvp experience.
If I was a new player that was excited by the thought of pvp and joined the game to partipcate only to have the first 20 lvls of it consisting of me being insta-gibbed, I'd definitely think twice about sticking around. Sure there's a skill element to the learning curve, but the beginning experience is FAR more around gear than skill.
I'm totally resistant to making the game too much like Chuck E. Cheese where you get a prize ticket everytime you put in a quarter for the record. But %^&*, at least give them a fighting chance...
Adamsm
의 게시글
Moving from 12mil to 10.2m is waning. Maybe MoP changes that, who knows.
10.2 million people in a seven year old game? Yeah, that just shows it's a solid title; the 12 mil was the peak excitement time; but sticking at 10.2 mil since shows that contrary to what all the doomsayers are screaming about, WoW is not going to die out. And mind, that's 10.2 mil over the last few quarters.
lonewarrior
의 게시글
Moving from 12mil to 10.2m is waning. Maybe MoP changes that, who knows.
10.2 million people in a seven year old game? Yeah, that just shows it's a solid title; the 12 mil was the peak excitement time; but sticking at 10.2 mil since shows that contrary to what all the doomsayers are screaming about, WoW is not going to die out. And mind, that's 10.2 mil over the last few quarters.
But 11.5 million came at the end of TBC.
Up from I believe 7.5 million at the end of Vanilla.
The high point was 12 million at Ulduar release and just prior to many of the current implementations like progression reset..LFD..etc.
So, as much as we hear the about downsides of Vanilla and TBC difficulties...they both obviously struck a chord.
Since then..the game has stalled in attracting new players and maintaining current subs and you don't have to look at numbers to see the results.
Many of the servers are a shadow of their former selves.
Hopefully the cross server zones will restore some life into zones again.
Adamsm
의 게시글
Again: 10.2 million over the last few quarters; seems like Blizzard is doing something right. And most of the servers I've been on seemed just as active as they normally were; still the same group of idiots standing around in Stormwind and Orgrimmar, clogging up trade chat.
Ordayc
의 게시글
I find it interesting that the people who complain about heirlooms (not just don't use them, but actively complain about them) all have accounts that on this site that started within the last week, and I am assuming have not even finished leveling through the first time.
Heirlooms exist because many people would like to try multiple classes, but 1-85 or 1-90 X 10 classes is a whole lot of time spent, on top of heroics, arenas, battleground, raids, dailies, farming, etc. So heirlooms are allowing people to earn a leveling speed increase on other characters by running content on their mains...
Then let me prove you wrong. :)
The main problem I see with heirlooms is that they serve two purposes, namely to increase leveling speed and to provide the wearer with nearly the best possible gear at all times. While I think the first part is fine (for the reasons you mentioned), my view is that the second is not when it comes to PvP.
There are many way the levelling process could be accelerated. Currently, this is done by handing out nearly optimal gear – IMHO, this is the worst way both for PvP (where it puts anyone at a disadvantage who has no access to it) and for PvE (where gear should be earned as you level). Better alternatives would be, for example, (a) to simply grant a higher experience gain (without affecting player power at all), or (b) to allow some/all levels to be skipped. Heirlooms have two major issues: First of all, they take away the pleasure of finding new gear, because heirlooms are almost always superior (and if they're not, they will be one or two levels later). More importantly, they make the wielder significantly more powerful than most non-heirloomed characters, which makes PvP pretty meaningless.
The argument that an heirloom is only as powerful as a blue of your level and thus does not increase the potential power of a character is somewhat flawed. Yes, theoretically, a player without access to BoA gear
could
become as powerful as one with it, but for any practical means this is wrong. Unless a player switches off the XP gain, trying to obtain the optimal gear for a given level is impossible because it automatically leads to level ups and thus renders your old gear sub-par. Besides, a player who wishes to remain competitive has to re-farm gear at every new level. Bottom line is, if you are a player who considers low-level PvP simply a means to level up, you are always at a serious disadvantage without access to BoA gear.
Honestly, I find the idea of heirloom items quite appealing for PvP, since it allows players not only to have gear without ever leaving PvP content, but also causes the characters to be almost equal in power. The problem I see is that it cannot be obtained by anyone immediately, and people who are either completely new or switched to a new server have to live with a fairly unpleasing situation.
I believe eventually it comes down to the question whether a character's power should scale with the time invested by a player. Many argue that it should be that way, since otherwise there would be no incentive to invest any time at all. Personally, I disagree strongly, and I prefer approaches like those for strategy or FPS games, where everyone starts at the same level of power (I'm speaking of PvP here, not PvE).
I disagree with your view on twinks.These were players who dedicated themselves to their style.
The sentiment on twinks has always been one that irked me.
I'm not a twinker myself mind you, but I had quite a few in my guilds during our TBC days.
These guys in my view were no different then players who went hardcore PvE. They wanted to be the best. They put in a lot of time to get their gear.
The difference is that being “best” in PvP comes at the expense of other players. My view on PvP is that skill should determine who's best, not gear. If it's gear, what is the purpose of PvP? One could simply elect the winner based on the average ilvl of the team. In my opinion, PvP is absolutely meaningless if gear is too much of a determinant.
As a regular BG's player back when there was no XP in BG's and twinks were in full bloom...I loved having them on my side.
This view puzzles me. Would you ever play (and enjoy) a sports game where your team has more players than the opposing team? Play chess with more pieces than your enemy? Play Starcraft II with twice the income? I fail to see how this can be entertaining. (On top of that, imagine there's a 50% chance that it's your enemy who's privileged.) Personally, I can only enjoy winning a game when I know the deciding factor is my ability, and not some external factor.
Having been on both sides (i.e. playing with superior and inferior gear), I feel there is nothing more frustrating than large gear discrepancies in a battleground. Winning a game with clearly better gear is not satisfying, and neither is losing to a character you cannot possibly defeat unless the player behind it is a total noob.
lonewarrior
의 게시글
I can understand how it must be daunting for a new player, but thats the challenge of the game, if anything it forces them to get better, which is the whole point of PvP, If they cannot do that leveling or do not like how it works, then PvP is probably not for them anyway. (And it teaches them to play their toon far more effectively than running random dungeons)
There is a difference between being challenging..which are the BG's I enjoyed as a new player and prohibitive which is what new players are facing. Yes..players should learn their class...but a battle between 2 evenly match players will always be decided by the better gear.
Someone buying a set of heirlooms at level one and never having to acquire such gear again will always have a decided advantage over new players who may be playing with gear a few levels below their current toon level.
In which case...facing an x9 level player with his heirloom gear auto leveled for him is no different then facing a twink and as such should be carted off to the same ques as non leveling twinks.
I get the feeling some of you don't play on a PvP server..in which case...have it your way.
But how do you justify creating PvP servers for players who want to engage in that and then demise there very nature of it by saying sorry you went and got over geared.
Are we going to start excluding highly geared PvE raiders on regular servers from doing LFR. O.o
Players didn't try to aspire to having better geared toons and skills...so they whined Blizz to lower the standard to succeed....they kicked the twinks.
Now the BG's are filled with easy mode heirlooms and killing the newbie is all the sport.
If the BG's had gotten even marginally better...I would have accepted that decision.
seriously..can anyone claim that the BG's game playing of the populace is better now then before.
lonewarrior
의 게시글
Again: 10.2 million over the last few quarters; seems like Blizzard is doing something right. And most of the servers I've been on seemed just as active as they normally were; still the same group of idiots standing around in Stormwind and Orgrimmar, clogging up trade chat.
Well the post on Blizz main site proclaim otherwise. There are constant threads about dying servers.
The cross-server zoning for Mop is Blizz acknowledgment of that.
As for the numbnuts clogging trade...well...Blizz does have issues that they will eventually have to take their heads out of the sand and resolutely deal with.
yukonjack
의 게시글
To Lonewarrior.
You champion both the cause of new players without heirlooms and twinks of yesteryear can you not see the contradiction here?
New players back in the era of twinks in regular bg's had as much chance against them as they do now against players wearing heirlooms.
Perhaps the answer is to create yet a third bracket for bg's one that would only allow non heirloom players in and by that i dont mean equipped i mean if you have heirlooms on any toon on the server you queue from your not allowed in period. But then new players and new server players with zero heirlooms would have such long wait times most likely wouldnt bother.
331902
의 게시글
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Luxxy
의 게시글
Just do what ive always said, if you can't beat them join them an dont QQ
but think of it this way also, you may get better at pvp the tougher the challenge
Ordayc
의 게시글
Perhaps the answer is to create yet a third bracket for bg's one that would only allow non heirloom players in and by that i dont mean equipped i mean if you have heirlooms on any toon on the server you queue from your not allowed in period. But then new players and new server players with zero heirlooms would have such long wait times most likely wouldnt bother.
As someone mentioned before, probably the best solution would be to use "effective item levels"* as a grouping method, with increasing level differences acceptable the longer a player is in the queue. That way, players of roughly equivalent gear power are put together whenever possible. The effective ilvl would include the item level of an item (and for heirlooms, whose ilvl is not representative of their power, the ilvl could be calculated from the character level) as well as factor in any enchants, gems, and so on.
331902
의 게시글
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
lonewarrior
의 게시글
To Lonewarrior.
You champion both the cause of new players without heirlooms and twinks of yesteryear can you not see the contradiction here?
New players back in the era of twinks in regular bg's had as much chance against them as they do now against players wearing heirlooms.
There is a difference..which kind of bewilders me to such responses and I find myself for some reason trying to repeat and clarify my point. But I guess i just have a different perspective.
One last time :)
Twinks
Anyone could twink.
Twinks had to go through for the most part, the progressive mechanism to acquire gear.
It also meant finding just the right gear for that particular class and for some twinks...it was a fashion as well.
Getting that particular piece or set. Acquiring that rare drop weapon.
There was a community and websites dedicated just for twinking.
Twinking was taking as aspect of the game and seeing how far you could progress in it.
From my sole point of view... I could admire such dedication as much as I could for a PvE player seeking legendary gear.
The difference is I could take a punch which seems to be a fading attribute in this game.
I always gave my best and if I failed to down the boss or got pwned by a twink so be it. The greatness of this game is you get to Rez and are afforded the opportunity to get better and to get even..which is all I ask.
New players are not afford that opportunity.
In PvE contents no biggie since you get carried.
But in BG's, when you cannot even attempt to participate successfully with any consistency because you are outgunned...not by an opponents natural progression but by system default and the new player is excluded from that..then something is wrong.
Heirlooms are purchased once, they provide the stats you need and forever auto level.
That goes against he grain of what the game is suppose to represent.
If heirlooms are so great...let's perpetuate their use. Let them auto level all they way through heroic DS.
Heck how many more people could do all the raids if they didn't have to acquire gear to progress up the raiding ladder. No need to worry about iLevel.
It would sure quell all the LFR loot roll noise.
Same for all the brackets of BG's and even arena's.
Why even bother for gear. Heirloom everything. Head to toe heirlooms for all toons.
Even allow transmog for heirlooms.
Total balance in gear and the game just becomes contents participation.
If what I'm spouting sounds silly...maybe because it is...if it's silly at the end of contents...then it's silly at the start as well.
Peace and stay cool..it's sure hot out there.
319062
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This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Nathanyal
의 게시글
The third option is to farm your own gear and make it better than heirlooms. When you are 68/69 you can get the armor with sockets and add in the +30 stam gems. That'll give a ton of stam, 15k for the DK who I fought against. With that it'll take several dps to focus you down, even if those dps have full heirlooms.
Luxxy
의 게시글
The third option is to farm your own gear and make it better than heirlooms. When you are 68/69 you can get the armor with sockets and add in the +30 stam gems. That'll give a ton of stam, 15k for the DK who I fought against. With that it'll take several dps to focus you down, even if those dps have full heirlooms.
i agree, it really isnt at all that hard to farm, i mean i play on 2 diff realms, when i decided to play on a second realm i started with nothing, no gold no looms no nothing an i still had no prob goin up against people with looms, its also not hard to farm to make your gear better.
yukonjack
의 게시글
Twinks
Anyone could twink
Anyone can get heirlooms too, including new players and just like in the past when a new player wanted to make a twink it took time and it was almost never their first toon they twinked out. Just like heirloom wearing players now.
Also new players were just as helpless against twinks back then as they are against heirloom wearing players now. I really don't see the difference here between twinks and heirloomed players, it takes time research and practice to get better at pvp now as it did then the only real difference with heirlooms is you arent running some low level dungeon and scanning the AH for that piece of gear you want. Though those are still very viable options.
331902
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This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
1012859
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This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
MrSCH
의 게시글
Gaining Concussive Shot at 30 instead of 8 - little impact on a leveler, other than making them better at kiting. No impact on end game. Makes PvP more balanced. Same for Scatter Shot, 15 is too soon. 14 for Disengage is ok.
Rogues - do you really need so much utility so early? Crippling poison is amazing, Blind is amazing, Vanish is amazing, look at my above argument.
I just don't see why a minor tweak like shifting what levels you get abilities would be a negative one in any way.
But hey, has anyone else tried pissing into the wind?
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