Topic of the Week 5/12 - The Casual & Hardcore Divide

Messaggio di Salali

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Welcome to "Topic of the Week"! I'll be mediating the discussion this week. Our topic this week is the divide between casual & hardcore players, and how it pertains to raiding.

Recall that we recently discussed time & money -- two of the top concerns for World of Warcraft players. Most classes & talent specializations fare well in solo play at level 70, often grinding and/or doing dailies. In PVP, our characters excel at tearing down & restricting our opponents, or even healing our allies. As unfortunate as it may be, we naturally incur quite a bit of overhead.

Whether you are relaxing after a long week at work or farming supplies for the big raid tomorrow, there's one thing we all experience -- the grind. How much time one is willing to spend, as well as how much they're willing to grind, are common determinants for the player classifications casual or hardcore.

But what exactly is a casual or hardcore player? Just as the label implies, a casual player typically plays 0-20 hours a week, equivalent to a part-time job. The normal casual player is probably in school, working a full-time job, or has an active social life. On the other end of the spectrum is the hardcore player. Able to spend upward of 100 hours a week, they are constantly tweaking & perfecting their character. Many have multiple characters, always striving to make the most of their time & to help their guild. Hardcore players can inherit the best gear, but also the grind and the stress that goes along with it. Sound like a job? For many, it may as well be.

Of course, this is not about pitting one demographic against the other. It's about how Blizzard is always trying to cater to both platforms in an effort to please just about everyone. After all, 10 million subscribers worldwide means Blizzard must be doing something right -- right?

Before posting a reply this week, consider the following:

The raid format was changed from 40-players to 25-players, placing more emphasis on individuals, but has it hurt coordination or improved the quality of raids?
Are raids really the only thing to look for in PVE end-game?
It's already known that Blizzard used The Burning Crusade as a testing ground for Heroics, so are you excited about the elaborate Heroics planned for Wrath of the Lich King?
Hardcore players: Do you participate in normal/Heroic 5-man content with casual players? or do you stick to your guild cliques?
Casual players: Do you get frustrated at the large amounts of content unavailable to you because of real life restrictions? Would you even want to participate in such massive content on a regular basis?
How do Hero classes fit in? Will their availability across realms change anything?

As usual, I'll be following along reading every post, thinking & possibly writing in response. Now, tell me what's on your mind.
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For a complete history of the TOTW series, click here.

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Messaggio di Uricidea

I am a casual player by my own definition, although I can devote quite a bit of time to the game. The divide between Casual and Hardcore players is more about attitude, rather than the time one has available to play. Players with, what I call, a Casual attitude enjoy the experience of playing. It is the Ends, not the Means. Hardcore players enjoy the achievement available in the game. In order to enjoy the highest achievements in the End Game content one must submit to being part of a machine designed to succeed in large scale encounters.

Having run with strictly friends and, at times, with a well organized guild of experienced Raiders I have found that there is an enjoyable middle ground. You cannot expect a driven Raider to accept a under-geared, inexperienced casual player to potentially hinder their chances for clearing an important instance. At the same time, those driven players aren't always playing in those environments. The very nature of scheduled raids give them plenty of down time to interact with the more mundane aspects, and players of the game.

In the end it comes down to why you enjoy the game. Do you just like to spend time saving the world, or do you "need" to save the world to be happy? When I reached this conclusion it made it easier for me to deal with the players around me. If you don't adjust your perspective to fit the situation you're currently involved with you are doomed to frustration. To bridge the gap you have to understand that everyone wants to succeed, the definition of that success is the divide between the Casual player and the Hardcore player.

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Messaggio di Celdhyrean

The raid format was changed from 40-players to 25-players, placing more emphasis on individuals, but has it hurt coordination or improved the quality of raids?
Are raids really the only thing to look for in PVE end-game?
It's already known that Blizzard used The Burning Crusade as a testing ground for Heroics, so are you excited about the elaborate Heroics planned for Wrath of the Lich King?
Hardcore players: Do you participate in normal/Heroic 5-man content with casual players? or do you stick to your guild cliques?
Casual players: Do you get frustrated at the large amounts of content unavailable to you because of real life restrictions? Would you even want to participate in such massive content on a regular basis?
How do Hero classes fit in? Will their availability across realms change anything?

I'm on the somewhat hardcore side of wow playing i guess : raiding 3 to 5 nights a week, and a playtime of 30-40 hours per week. My main occupation is PvE 25 man raiding, and I'm the usual raid leader. Some farming and instancing on the side (heroics for badges or rep for alts), one main reroll (PvE too) at 70 and some other levelling very slowly (the highest created 2 years ago became 40 yesterday).
I farm my herbs and food for consumables which i'd say accounts for ~1-2 hours per week, and do some quick dailies on the side (the full array if i have a rep to grind (and they're not too bothersome), else only 1-2 per day on the way to something else). This allows me to gain largely enough money to support my financial needs.
The rest is raiding, instancing and 10 arenas per week. Mostly no BGs as i don't like them.
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25-man raids are definitely easier to organize than 40-man were, but as has been said there's much less room for errors and stupidity. On one hand, you have more contact with each individual and get to know them better, on the other hand I have to yell more at people doing stupid things for the 10th time (since 1 person doing stupid things can be enough to wipe a raid) and that does not make an enjoyable play experience for me (nor for them i guess).

Raids are the main thing to look at in PvE endgame because they take more time to complete than any other thing, be it a new instance, a new zone, new quests, new factions, ... Being the most difficult (and most rewarding) objective, they are the main points of PvE endgame. The other activities i mentionned can be the main points for those who don't have the time/motivation to do raids though, to each their own target.

I'll be excited (or not) at WotLK heroics once i'll know more about them. I don't worry/marvel in advance at things without informations :)

Regarding my interactions with normal players, i normally keep to my guild and some friends/friend guilds, especially regarding instances (for my alt) and heroics (main + alt). However i rarely start the groups myselves (organizing raids is enough) so sometimes there'll be one or two pickups in order to complete the group. Generally dps, sometimes healer or tank (though thatt's a bigger risk as the roles are more crucial). It usually goes well with full guild groups (we are overgeared for that content anyway), and mixed results with pick ups. I also mostly level my toons by grinding and questing since the odds of guildies doing runs in those instances is low and i don't like to ask for a run-through.
I know i'm diminishing my chances to meet some very good players by mostly refusing pickups, but i also diminish my chances of encountering the bad ones, it's a trade-off.
I do sometimes help complete strangers looking for members on quests in zones i'm farming something in to break monotony though (having a druid means i can tank/heal/dps for mostly any quest).

I'm not too frustrated at the content i'm missing. I'm more frustrated by how bad we can do in content we are supposed to master : Lurker down 7 months ago for the first time, SSC cleaned , Hyjal 3/5 and we still manage to have half the raid dead on a Lurker fight...
I think i have the means to change guilds, get in a real harcore one and see all the content, but i prefer to stay with this guild for now, despite the lack of concentration which is what really impairs our progress.

The hero classes will be something i'll try out but I'll keep my current main, at least for a start. I have no idea how they'll integrate in raids and other aspects of the game since we don't know much about them and even less about the changes that'll be brought to the other classes.

Messaggio di Azrile

I think the big announcement yesterday really will be the 'end' of the casual vs hardcore debate. Most of the problem casuals had was that they weren't able to 'see' endgame content. Now that ALL raids will be 10 man-able... there will no longer be an endgame past the ZA equivelant. Yeah, there will still be gear that casuals can't get (from the 25 man versions), but they won't be locked out of content like they were with MC, Nax and Black Temple.

Think about 'endgame' in Vanilla wow for non-raiders.... there was only rep grinds. With BC, we got plenty of lvl 70 5man dungeons, heroic versions of all dungeons, dailies, Rep grinds and two 10-man dungeons. That is a ton of things for players to do once they reach 70 without getting into huge guilds or commiting large chunks of time.

The difference with WotLK is that now there will be even more 10man dungeons with a more systematic gear progression.

Messaggio di Salali

One of the greatest advantages to Heroic dungeons is the fact some of them are repetitive. The same dungeon you end up starting with in Hellfire Peninsula becomes one of the tougher ones (in terms of high damage), giving it more of a "5-man raid" feel.

Blizzard has long announced that The Burning Crusade (TBC) was a sandbox playground for new features or mechanics. Heroic dungeons, such as Shattered Halls, are just the tip of an iceberg for Wrath of the Lich King (WLK). With more customized "hard-mode" dungeons at level 80, players will have something to look forward to.

If there is one thing I can't stand it is when I've "lost that lovin' feelin'." We've all experienced it. That feeling when we stepped into the Cathedral's portal at the Scarlet Monastery -- turning the corner at the end of the hall, facing the many sculpted water fountains. The sense of accomplishment from downing Mograine after having been resurrected by "ma lady" is like none other. It's the first-time experience & we all revel in it sometimes, wishing to experience that feeling all over again.

Heroic dungeons are a surefire way to keep the dungeons we know & love from "growing old" and being left behind, only for our "alts" to prance around in. Having new bosses & epic loot or the entire dungeon retuned for max level will surely catch my attention.

Messaggio di hezec

The raid format was changed from 40-players to 25-players, placing more emphasis on individuals, but has it hurt coordination or improved the quality of raids?

As someone said it, "40-mans were really 25-mans with 15 slackers trying not to get noticed." I don't really have experience of either but I'd imagine a smaller team is easier to get together and coordinate. It's a change more good than bad imo.

Are raids really the only thing to look for in PVE end-game?

Looks like they are... heroics are to some extent but not really.

It's already known that Blizzard used The Burning Crusade as a testing ground for Heroics, so are you excited about the elaborate Heroics planned for Wrath of the Lich King?

Hell yeah. Obviously nothing will beat the feeling of downing a boss in some new Northrend dungeon for the first time while leveling but heroics seem good to me as they are. I can't imagine them getting remarkably worse either.

Hardcore players: Do you participate in normal/Heroic 5-man content with casual players? or do you stick to your guild cliques? / Casual players: Do you get frustrated at the large amounts of content unavailable to you because of real life restrictions? Would you even want to participate in such massive content on a regular basis?

I'm really in between casual and hardcore, doing 10-mans every weekend. To be honest, I'd really like to raid a lot more and progress but I'm content with both pugging heroics and raiding with my guild. It's not like I can do much about the restrictions I have... =/

How do Hero classes fit in? Will their availability across realms change anything?

I highly doubt it. Blizzard has stated they will be just another class and I believe that much. Most likely there will be a DK spree after people have gotten their mains to 80 and want to try something new but most of those alts will probably be forgotten and just become another fraction of about 10% of the active WoW population. Their high armor and magic resistance sounds like it might cause some pvp imbalance but I'm guessing Blizz will work around that somehow.

Yeah, of course I'm rolling one too. =P

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Messaggio di eisesmit

To be honest, I have no idea to which part of the gaming group I belong, but if I would have to make a choice I would have to say hard core. It is like a hobby which has grown into a passion. Other people like to collect stamps, or make fancy hobby cards 6 hours a day. I like to play and optimize my character as much as possible with the available gear I have (and am willing to grind for it) and raid as well..

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Messaggio di Zmobie

Well, I personally believe the 40 to 25-man change has hurt and helped the quality of raids. On one hand, it used to be amazing how you needed a gigantic amount of very talented players to be able to even attempt these raids, on the other hand, it used to be very hard to gather 40 great players, taking 15 people less nowadays makes it a bit easier to get enough people to raid these places. They all still have to be good players, you just need less, which also makes each person just that much more important.

Raids are mainly whats left for the PVE end-game, I mean, if PVP isn't your thing, and Heroics just don't do it for you much anymore, then raids are the only thing left. But I find most Hardcore players also enjoy BGs and Heroics, so there is always something left for them to do.

I am really, really excited about Heroics in WotLK! I mean, Heroics are great for when I don't have anough time to raid, or when I'm not geared well enough to raid, it's like a "mini-raid" in a sense, which is just great. :)

I'm not a Hardcore players, so I can't say for certain, but from what I've seen, there are a lot of "Hardcore", amazingly well geared players in Heroic Groups all the time, so I'd say they are still very into doing them with casual players, even if it's a bit more rarely.

Honestly, I've not gone past Kara, so I can't say if I'd be into it, but If I was in that kind of guild, and I had enough spare time, I would definitely be up for it.

It doesn't make me angry or frustrated, I mean, sure, It would be nice if one day I could just be "I wanna try BT", and then go off and do it, but I'm fine knowing I probably never will because it takes to much time getting there and doing it. I have fun with the way I play, so it doesn't effect me much.

I doubt Hero Classes will change much at all about it... I mean, yeah, they are called "Hero Classes", but considering they are supposedly pretty balanced with all other classes, it isn't that big of a deal. In time they will just find there place in the game just like every other class, because thats what they are, just another class.

Messaggio di lorgion

The raid format was changed from 40-players to 25-players, placing more emphasis on individuals, but has it hurt coordination or improved the quality of raids?
Having cleared most raid content pre-TBC and just Sunwell left in TBC I have to conclude it has overall been for the better.

Keeping 40+ people that knew how to play around was a major pain. Sure it felt more epic to do 40 man raids then 25 man. Instance wise the pre-TBC places felt and seemed cooler if you ask me. But perhaps that is just nostalgia talking.

25 man also sometimes seem to take more planning and adjustment to build very specific setups vs various bosses. Something you didn't have to do so much before as long as you kept the basic amount of healers, tanks etc. It felt less class dependent, there was always a couple of people around that could usually do the task at hand.

Coordinating 15 less people then before? Easier naturally, somewhat less effort to manage less people. The group gets more closenit, now a guild can be just 40-50 people and that is fine. Improved quality? Depends on what quality is and what you are looking for. A lot of the old instances felt funnier in my mind, perhaps that is cause Blizzard have this horrid tendancy to reuse everything. Boss X does this which is just another version of what Boss Y did before.

Someone mentioned that 40 man was like 25 man + 15 people slacking along and not paying attention. Guess there is something to it. You didn't always have to be on the ball like you sort of have to be now. That is until AQ40 and NAXX when one or two people goofed and it was a wipe.

Are raids really the only thing to look for in PVE end-game?
Yes. What else would there be? Farming? You don't play to farm, it's not that fun. Atleast with the daily quests and all the gold Blizzard is showering us with we now require a lot less farming then previously. Which is all good. So what else is there? PvP/Arena and BGs are just mindless ganking for when you don't raid. It has it's charm but PvE raiding is what the game is all about as far as I am concerned.

It's already known that Blizzard used The Burning Crusade as a testing ground for Heroics, so are you excited about the elaborate Heroics planned for Wrath of the Lich King?
Not really. If talking about heroic 5 mans I don't really care since it's an extracurricular activity. The 25 man and less instance of the same instance. Well I guess that will be nice if you can't find the people.

Hardcore players: Do you participate in normal/Heroic 5-man content with casual players? or do you stick to your guild cliques?
No. I sometimes play with friends and alts of the guildies in 5 man content but I don't ever do pugs. You do it with friends and people you know cause then there are no or less (emo) "surprises".

On that note; Scholomance is still the best 5 man instance in the game. I wish they would upgrade that one or make a similar one.

How do Hero classes fit in? Will their availability across realms change anything?
Deathknights? Remains to be seen. From the basic information they seem to be able to do a bit of this that and the other. But nothing really new as far as I can tell. There already is melee dps and paladin protection tanks. So this just seems a bit gimmicky. But I could be wrong and it could be great. Beyond that I would prefer to see it before passing judgement.

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Topic of the Week 5/12 - The Casual & Hardcore Divide

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